Triathlon = a sport where even the hard core followers don't know the proper name of its fastest athlete.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I don't know that LetsRun is a wannabe running news site as they're usually one of the 1st to the table to report the news. The forum is loaded w/ all sorts of nonsense, but arguably no more/less than what's posted here.

I'm not sure how that's triathlon hate as it's a quote directly from Verzbicas.

Although I disagree w/ the timing of his decision & don't want to get into a debate over whether he should/shouldn't have left....to say that he could keep playing in the shallow american running field or step up the game, is hardly the case...actually quite the opposite.

Today he has the ability to be competitive as a professional triathlete.

Today he's not even the top 3 on his collegiate xc team.

So you tell me if there's more depth in triathlon or in that shallow american running field?
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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

LV can't swim. If you can't swim you can't ride with the main pack. If you can't ride with the main pack you won't be in the mix on the run.
LV won't be in the mix on the run.
LV will be riding alone the lead pack will be working together. Not saying they aren't working as hard, just saying they'll be faster on the same effort. They will gain more time on LV.
LV will be behind someone that ran 29 for a 10k. Even if he's with the main pack, when he won junior champs this year he ran 15:33 for 5k, double that and you get 31 for 10k.
LV may be great with the boys, but he has a lot of work to do to race with the men.

And as for the quote, I'm sure anyone that just got a tour of the Oregon running scene would have a stronger passion for running than they would triathlon at that point. How often do you think while watching Kona that you want to go out for a run or ride? Same idea here.
Although the sub text with the quote was a low blow I wouldn't expect anything different from the brojos.

I can totally see your point from Junior ITU worlds in sept

http://athlinks.com/...&courseid=250404

I mean golly 11 seconds off the first place swimmer is pretty much flopping around like a baby seal.


Can he sit in the main pack right now? Maybe maybe not, depends who is racing and how hard they are pushing. But saying he can't swim is asinine. But i'm sure you swim sub 18s right now so its all good right?

Get over it SeasonsChange. It's his own words. Unlike ST where only a couple of pros hop on to post (well, mostly just Jordan) dozens of current and former world class athletes and their coaches mix it up with the idiot high school or college punk, or troll. You might not like it, but their portrayal of triathletes is typically pretty close in my opinion. I read the posts here, and there, and in terms of acquiring knowledge about endurance sports ST is not even in the same league. Sorry, that's my opinion and you will have an impossible time convincing me otherwise.

As someone their pointed out, LV is apparently trading in a college career for a shot at the Olympics. That's fine, but in the end probably misguided, but it's his choice.

As you might not like it SeasonsChange, but an Olympic medal in triathlon is about as meaningful as a gold in the Modern Pentathlon. It in no way, shape, or form does it equate to a gold in the 5000, or 1500 or 10000 or marathon. But that's his choice. I doubt he ever makes the team actually. But, we'll see, won't we?

Verzbicas is like the Tebow of Tris now. Geez, you guys are ready to say he wont amount to anything after he wins the world junior champs 2 months ago.

For his sake, let's hope he isn't the Tebow of tris. Tebow is flat out the worst starting QB in quite some time.

You nailed it.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Oh yes, I forgot that we have a world class coach who graces us all with his wisdom. Geesh.

Reading some of the comments on ST already it reminds me when people saw Taylor Phinney winning at a young age, and the next thing people were saying; "he's the next Lance at the TdF". Hell, we have people already saying he's our best top hopeful for 2012, and he likely cant even garner enough points to even be in the conversation. The amount of pressure he's going to face is going to be unreal.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

And he's played 4 games maybe he gets better maybe he doesn't. But damn Verzbicas has got 4th at junior worlds and 1st at Junior worlds, and you think he'll never make the olympics? Do you hate him because he's good or do you think our Pro US team is just THAT good.

I don't know if he does or not, but my point is "who cares?" He had a shot a making it as a runner, which would be a much bigger deal than making it in curling, or equestrian, or triathlon. But he apparently isn't patient enough to let himself develop, which makes me wonder if he has the character to overcome injuries, adversity, and all the other things that the current crop of top US pros have. We'll see.

I have no idea what hes gonna do, he may crash and burn. Kirsty McWilliam could never really come back after she won juniors 2008 in vancouver and I don't think she is even racing anymore. But hes still got 5 years he can race U23. After he starts building that experience then it will be a lot better indication of how he is going to do it the WCS series.

Bigger deal to who? You? Maybe he doesn't care how "big of a deal" running is compared to tris to some people. Just a thought here, maybe he wants to do what he loves to do and he determined running in college wasn't that. He's only 18 its not like he would be the first 18 year old in the world to change his mind on what he wanted to do. If he wants to be a triathlete and not a runner so be it. He doesn't have to want to make it as a runner just because he was good at it. I don't know why people what to chastise the kid because he wants to do want he wants to not what a bunch of people who love running want him to do.

Your acting like hes never raced at a high level before, but Lukas has been racing ITU juniors since he was young. Hes over came many injuries and has been under tons of pressure and he usually performs well. There was alot of pressure to win Junior worlds for him and for Kevin, and he ended up racing that race almost perfectly. He knows how to race triathlon, and is a more well rounded package than people give him credit for. He can swim, he was out of the water with the leaders in Beijing, and he still has room to improve. Saying he cant swim is just like when people where saying Lance wouldn't be able to swim. I wouldn't count him out of anything he puts his mind to.

I guess it really makes me suspicious when I see someone quit something simply because they are not top dog and struggling (which appears to be the case). I would love to know where his parents came in on this. Did they support him leaving? Did they try to convince him to finish what he started? No matter how you look at it, he got some bad advice - either at the beginning if he was encouraged to go to Oregon when his passion is triathlon, or now when he bailed on something he apparently very much wanted to do just a few months ago. Either way, I don't see how this choice shows his character.

WHAT. THE. BLEEP?
Paulo, stick to coaching, not comparing football players and runners/triathletes/whatever this kid does

But the thing is no one knows besides him and the people who were close to him if he really was struggling. Maybe he just didn't like it, he didn't pick the best time to leave, but I have zero problems in him leaving if thats what he wanted to do. It has nothing to do with him finishing what he started, why would he go through 4 years of disliking what he was doing, if that was the case, when he can do something he wants to do. He made a decision, decided it was a bad one and changed his mind. Could he have picked a better time to leave, sure, but once again he's 18.

Who quits on their team before regionals? I'm not talking 4 years. I'm talking finishing the season he started. What, he won't make the Olympics in tri if he runs at Oregon for 4 more weeks? Seriously?

I just agreed with you and said it probably wasn't the best time, but once again he's 18 he could have everyone in the world tell him it was a dumb idea that doesn't mean an 18 year old will listen.

Triathlon's getting more competitive by the day. I'd say that the gold medal in triathlon has a lot of worth and requires a ton of hard work to get there. While you might say it doesn't equate to the longer distance running events in terms of worth, I disagree. Having run competitively for 6 years I met many very successful, top level(at least region-wide) runners. Of those runners several admit that the training required in triathlon is about equal if not harder than the professional running scene. To compare my collegiate training schedule as a d1 athlete to triathlon; I ran about 60 miles a week with about an hour of strength. Maybe 10 hours total for the week. For triathlon that number is nearly double, and I would say the dedication needed is also more than running.

Now will Lukas make it? I don't know. I'm confident he will give it his best shot. I also would like to point out the example of Ryan Sissons, whom recently was named to New Zealand's olympic team, whose a similar age to Lukas. Ryan narrowly beat Kevin McDowell at the 2010 YOG. In 2009 Kevin and Lukas almost raced head to head at junior elite nationals, and if the course had been longer I believe Lukas would have easily caught Kevin on the run and built quite the gap. I personally believe he will do better at the olympic distance, but not without the obvious work required.

I also think it's nearly impossible to compare one ITU course to another, or one triathlon to another. Thereby I guess only time will tell what he is capable of. I also don't know if his current decision is ireversible. So if he doesn't make it in 2012 he may move back to running.

Maybe ...just maybe....running for 14 or so years day in and day out season after season has the kid worn down a little bit and he needs to step away for a bit. On a brighter note maybe he meets Paulo's criteria for a "elite" squad.

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I would just be shocked, shocked if that were the case. I needed a break from hockey after 4 years of high school before I started playing my second year in college

Phinney has done pretty damn well so far...

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Really? Where? In the US?
Sorry for the thread hijack; The U-23 category in the US is kind of a sore point.

OK, back to the thread that is letting everyone know exactly what the situation was and what Lukas's motivation is/was.

I swam from age 6 to 17 four seasons of the year every morning and afternoon. Except Sunday for the most part. By the time I was 17 1/2 I skipped a swim practice to go skiing with buddies and I ni front of the wholenteam the coach told me to pick one skiing or swimming. I really had know more interest in swimming anymore so opted for hunter mountain every Friday :0( boy was he upset as I had been swimming with the high school squad from the time o was 13. To this day I still get bored in the pool and it takes all I have mentally to swim over 3000 m in one sitting. Point is he is a kid that has been doing the same thing for years, I feel for him. Remember they have kept the door open for him, at least they said they did???

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They shouldn't. Abandoning the team when you are one of their top guys, potentially costing the team a bid to nationals, that isn't the kind of thing that leaves doors open. I wouldn't care of LV was running for a Community College, you can't just leave the team and expect there to be no consequences.

I wish LV success, but I find it hard to believe he didn't have another 3 weeks in him.

I agree but he is still a kid.

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Official Polar Ambassador
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He wont cost them a trip to nationals. Again without know why he left its hard to form an opinion. It looks bad, but everything up until know has made LV look like a pretty great guy, so why can't we give him the benefit of the doubt. its not the worse thing to happen in college sports lately.

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Styrrell

The kid is 18. He doesn't owe anybody anything.

If he wanted to give up running and triathlon and take up professional water polo, good for him, as long as thats what he wants.

I find it extremely amusing and ironic that the 'most independent country in the world' has all these people who think they are due this and that :-)

I don't think loyalty and fulfilling a commitment are entirely US based sentiments. I think LV should have stayed with Oregon through nationals. Its a team sport and he signed on. I just think that we don't know the whole story as to why and he is still a kid right out of high school with abnormal amount sof pressure and expectations on him. I don't mind giving him the benefit of the doubt, but still, I would've liked to see him finish out the season.

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Styrrell

Presumably as the #3 runner at Oregon, he's on scholarship. That's a contract. They pay him to attend school, and oh yeah, run.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

If you polled all the people who have been on a competitive collegiate XC team, you would find overwhelming disapproval of his decision. Some of you just don't understand what it is like to be a member of these teams. Your lifestyle is so different than the average college kid that you become extremely close to your teammates.

This isn't a football forum, but you obviously don't follow NFL football.

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Nothing to see here

Yeah cause no one here has been on a competitive sports team before and XC is that much different. How do you that the other people on his team even like him. Maybe they were treating him like crap and he didn't feel the desire to keep competing with them. You can poll who ever you want to poll the fact of the matter is no one knows the facts and to pass judgement on him with the only fact being he left at crappy time of the year is dumb.

I'm looking forward to having him in Colorado Springs. Maybe he'll toe the line in some of our local races. Hunter Kemper, Susan Williams, Michael Weiss, and many others have raced here. Seems like these people have done pretty well.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

Please pray for wisdom for me,...

What's the situation with accepting sponsorships and NCAA eligibility? Anybody know?

What people? The kid is a TRACK world champion, a TT national champion...he has MANY years to gain endurance and lose weight before he has a sniff at grand tours.

Just seach this forum. Quite a few were touting TF as a TdF contender and quite a few were saying he'd never be a contender in the TdF.

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Styrrell

Umm did you see his game against miami? We barely won. It should've been no contest. Did you see the game against the Lions? We were slaughtered.
"Early in the fourth quarter, Tebow was an unsightly 8-of-25 passing for 87 yards and an interception that was returned 100 yards for a touchdown by Lions cornerback Chris Houston." from the denver post. Granted he had a good game against the raiders but he is very inconsistent...as I would expect a nearly rookie quarterback to be. I only hope nobody buys a billboard I have to stare at everyday that says play lukas.

See what I wrote here. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=3630824;#3630690

Basically, once he accepts sponsorship money his eligibility is gone. Prize money is a separate issue.

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Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen

Dude did you even go to college. You are NOT thinking clearly. I could think of any number of reasons to drop out at certain time - the biggest being that you can drop classes up to certain point - after that point you have to take the grade. And if you ask a runner to name ten professional runners I bet they can't. If you ask a triathlete to name ten pro triathletes they can. You tell me what is more important. If I was betting on a sport I would be much more willing to bet on the success of triathlon then running in the future.

I bet those on Letsrun can name 10 pro runners, just like us on ST can name 10 pro triathletes....the "Joe Schmoes" of our respective sports cannot. Hell all you have to do is say Mutai and Bekele and you have your 10 right there, ha.

running has been around since well the beginning of humanity. I think running is gonna be just fine. When you have marathons filling up with 25k+ people I don't think I would bet against running going away anytime in the distance future.

This thread has probably reached the "beating a dead horse" stage, but nevertheless.....True, he's only 18 and still a "kid". But he has invited this type of scrutiny by posting his every move on facebook and twitter. He LIVES for the limelight and the fanfare - that is his fuel, as opposed to love of the sport. Any doubt about that? Read the most recent Slowtwitch interview, in which the hot topics are which agency is going to represent him, and who will give him a shoe contract. Really?? He has not even competed at the Olympic distance yet. Let's hold off on the coronation until he actually crosses a finish line. He had a stellar high school running career - he was virtually unbeatable at that level and showed tremendous potential. Yet when he was actually challenged for the first time at the collegiate level, when the going got tough, he folded up his tent and went home.
So what does he face next? Ever actually watch an ITU race, whether its a Continental Cup, World Cup or WCS race, let alone compete at that level? I know many people on this thread have done so. It is brutal from the opening gun. The swim is physical, the surges on the bike are intense, and the run is painful to watch. (I'm sorry, but with the swimming and cycling intensity in these races, the days of the "wet 10k" are no longer - you need to be super strong in all 3 disciplines). LV proved that he can't compete at the collegiate level in the 10k - at least he proved very quickly that mentally he's not up for the challenge. And now you are talking about the olympics, and olympic medals?? Remember, there's a 10k at the end of that race that will be alot harder than the PAC 12 x-c champs. Winning the Junior World Champs is a tremendous accomplishment, but again, its a junior race - congratulations, you are a great junior triathlete. Now step up to the next level, do a few races, post some actual results, prove that you can actually handle the longer swim and bike (which is far from a given), and then maybe we can have a serious conversation about the olympics. Then you can talk about your sponsors and your shoe contract. LV's "handlers" and USAT are not doing him any favors by talking about his olympic plans at this point.
I am sure that any of our current olympians and olympic hopefuls (Chrabot, Shoemaker, Kemper, Groff, Bennett, and others) will tell you that to compete at the highest level of ITU triathlon, you need to have guts, nobody cares about your "potential" or your sponsors, you need to be extremely tough, and yes, there will be days when you don't finish in the top 20. If you can't handle that, then good luck with your age group career.

I love how racing a couple times as a freshman proves that he can't handle a collegiate level 10k. You guys crack me up. Furthermore there is very little difference in training for the junior distance and the Olympic distance at the pro level. VERY little, but you don't think he can handle an oly distance race? I'll give a kid who is the world champion at the junior level the benefit of the doubt that he may just be able to race an olympic distance and do well at in a couple of years. Could I be wrong of course, nothing is a sure bet, but wow its amazing how some of you guys think he will never amount to anything.

Dumbest post of the year!!! I'm a college professor, and I know more about drop dates and their consequences than you do! The comment about naming pro runners is just plain stupid. The success of triathlon in the future? You mean in your white, eurocentric world right? Geesh

There is definitely a difference between making it in a few years, which he had the talent to do, and talking to sponsors 2 days after you quit collegiate cross country..and talk aout attending the olympics in less than a year.

let me guess, liberal arts.

Not disagreeing with this point. Its going to be a tall order if not impossible to do just because of the timing, races, qualification system, and fact that hes still very young for endurance athletes. I'm just shocked at the people who think he wont amount to anything at all after he wins worlds, there is zero logic in that. But I do give the kid credit for trying to make it even if he will very likely miss the mark next year.

well, the logic here is that he was the next great runner for collegiate running and after a couple bad races all of a sudden left to pursue his REAL favorite sport. He had a whole lot of talent there, too.

I'm not sure you know more about drop dates and their consequences than I do but that would be impossible to determine so I will leave that one be. As I eluded to in the other LV post - my main point is/was that we lack perspective and can't possible understand all the facets of the decision making process. My "drop date" scenario is just a simple angle to take and one of an infinite number of possibilities. And for the record, why would the comment about pro runners just be plain stupid - I was a runner first and I would have a tough naming 10 pro runners. I could easily name 100 pro triathletes though. That is success right there in a n+1 situation. And I said a betting man - I'm not saying which sport is bigger. There is a clear difference and the post would take too long to explain - being a college professor you probably lack the real-world skill to understand anyway so I will leave it at that. Lastly the idiom you are meaning to use is Sheesh not Geesh - get it right.

I am talking about making a bet on something, I am betting on growth not on absolute size.

Youve never heard geesh?

Edit: growth isnt a good indicator of longevity of a sport, of course triathlon growth is going to be faster there were far less people doing it 10 years ago than running. You cant have infinite growth with a finite market at some point the tri market growth will max out and you will end up with the same situation as running. You should be able understand that since you have those "real world skills" right.

My dad can name more pro triathletes than pro runners and he doesn't do either. I was a runner first - I can't even name 10 current runners but I can name over 100 current triathletes, probably closer to 200 actually. If you take the obsessed runners on letsrun they might be able to name 10 runners, but if you take the avg runner/avg triathlete I bet you the avg triathlete can give you more name in their sport.

First off the idiom is sheesh not geesh. Look up the definition of geesh if you don't believe me and I'm talking about making a bet. I really don't want to explain it to kid who is going to med school and will be so far in debt by the time he gets out that he would have ended the rat-race with more money as a janitor for Chipotle Mexican Grill. Just trust me on it. If you really want me to explain it to you I will but I would prefer to do it over the phone.

Well you are obviously too smart for me, I mean paying off student loans is so tough for physicians I see all of them driving around 1980 pintos because of it. Not to mention you have no idea what my financial situation is so your comment is moot anyways. Furthermore if you think most people put themselves through the hell of med school to just make money you're kidding yourself. I don't need you too explain anything to me since it seems the only thing you have managed to know is that there is a difference between sheesh and geesh. Which while slighty impressive doesn't really matter to the point at hand with growth of the sport. Which you obviously ignored since I am right. There will be no decrease in longevity of running it will continue to be, for lack of a better term, a "cash cow" and will still be around long after triathlon's growth rate has stabilized.

Finally we agree on something - there is more to this world than money. Fantastic!!! But in reality my real point is that this is what you get when people make assumptions. So leave Lukas alone. Let him do what he dreams. We can't possibly come to terms with the opportunities he has and we never will and I don't really understand why people feel the need to talk about things like this. Do we have nothing better to do with ourselves?

To your first point i'm pretty sure that is what I have been saying since the beginning of the thread?

To the second point because he is or soon will be a professional athlete, partially supported by money that we pay to USAT, and that puts him in a spotlight in the triathlon world in the US. Which means he's pretty much fair game to discuss.

First time writing in. Interesting reading the thread for LV.

I have had the chance to interview Lucas a number of times for our ITU TV SHOWS, have personally seen him race numerous times and have been to every junior and senior world championships in ITU history. Lucas is a very special athlete, who has the skill set to be something incredible in time. In 25 years of teenagers coming through, no junior has ever run as fast, as young as Lucas has. Does that mean he will continue to improve (only time will tell). Knowing his relationship with his triathlon coaches, his appreciation for his unique talent (only 5 kids ever breaking the sub 4 minute mile in high school), his dedication to his team-mates and the support I am sure that USA Triathlon will provide him, I would not want to bet against Lucas being a formidable force in the next decade.

Many runners have gone away to school and not performed incredibly well in their first season. Lucas got to Oregon at the end of a very successful triathlon season, having had a bike crash to recover from in the month prior to the Worlds. AND he just finished having one of the greatest high school running years in USA history. To me, that was a lot on his plate in just one calender year. I am not surprised he didn't perform up to his potential at Oregon.


Given a year to properly prepare for triathlon, and knowing the magic I have seen with my own eyes, I can imagine some incredible performances coming from him very soon. Whether he makes the 2012 Olympic team (a possibility) or not, USA Triathlon and the US Olympic Committee have identified a world-class potential (something every country in the world is looking for).

For those who are run/tri historians, you might remember Canada's Carol Montgomery making history in Sydney 2000 Olympics by qualifying for the 10 000m on the track and the triathlon at the same Olympic Games (historic). While an incredibly difficult task to accomplish, a kid like Lucas might just have the skill set to try something like this by the time 2016 or 2020 rolls around. With the exception of Portugal's Olympian Vanessa Fernandes, I don't think I have seen this much interest or debate around any other junior coming into triathlon in 20+ years.

I am not Luca's PR agent, but as a person who loves to see world-class racing, I think Lucas's decision this week, will add a new wrinkle to the elite racing scene in the next few years.

"I am not surprised he didn't perform up to his potential at Oregon."

this is the part i don't get. here is the video of the wisconsin invite, his first ever college race. off tri training. the fastest, deepest field this year outside of NCAA D1 cross champs.

it's an 8k race, and apart from lawi lalang - who's in another class - LV ran with the lead pack (maybe 6 or 8 guys) for half the race. then he blew.

this is the type of race he runs. he didn't run for 10th or 15th, he ran to win. he's fearless.

as good as 3:59 and 8:29 is, it isn't good enough to step onto the grass in his first collegiate race, off tri training, and beat the entire collegiate field in the deepest invite of the year in north america. yet that's what he attempted to do.

i was very impressed with this race.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

....I have nothing to add other than...WELCOME Barrie Shepley.

This is the man who has been a coach or media for every ITU World's going back to 1989 in Avignon. Barry has seen every significant in ITU World's in history. We should get Tim Carlson to interview Barry and give us his top 10 moments in ITU Worlds/Olympic history. Glad to see you posting here! WELCOME!

Hey Dan. I am sure that the cross country season that Lucas just finished was not what he nor his many fans had expected. Solid performances for most kids, but obviously it did not live up to the HYPE based on what he did in high school. My point, was the cross country season was never likely going to be A+. Nobody could have had the number of high school track races he had in his senior year, then rush right into a consolidated tri-season, crash on his bike and try to recover, win the gold at the World Tri Champs, then rush back from China to a cross country season that was already in progress. He simply didn't have enough time in 2011 to transition and regenerate from the incredibly year he had. Nobody in history has broke a 4 minute mile in high school and won a world gold medal in another sport in the same year. As good a runner and as competitive as he is, he needed a regeneration season and the average final finishing positions were pretty expected. Taking nothing away from the kid, because I am sure had he not turned elite in triathlon this week, he would have been a major college talent.

I think the criticism about Lukas is legitimate and fair. LV had arguably the best high school career in cross country and track and field, ever. His times were faster than Dathan Ritzenhein, Alan Webb (in the 2-mile), Galen Rupp, Chris Derrick, German Fernandez, Chris Solinsky...and the list could go on and on.

All of these guys performed much better as freshman in cross country than LV. In my opinion, the criticism does not stem from him having a rough outing at Wisco or his (much better but not spectacular) finish at the Pac-12 meet. LV did not reach his potential because he didn't give it a chance.

I also think part of LV problem is that he is very much an individual. Cross country is about running the race that will help your team win. If you're capable of scoring 1 point that's great but LV was not. Being fearless in this sense is running a foolish race. This is why the teams that have had success over the last 5 years especially have ran controlled but smart races. This is why Oklahoma State, Stanford and Wisconsin run in packs together. Additionally, 3:59 and 8:29 are times which should allow LV to finish in the top 10 in almost any collegiate race. His teammate Luke Puskedra who LV could not hang with at Wisco has PRS of 4:06 and 7:57 (3k) and has finished 5th, 21st, and 3rd at Nationals. LV is of the same pedigree and for whatever reason did not compete on the same level he did in high school. Does anyone really think Jeremy Elkaim is a more talented runner than LV? And he beat LV handily at Pac-12.

LV is obviously a big talent in triathlon and running and I wish him the best, however, if I'm a future sponsor I'm not sure I like the fact he ditched Oregon. His conflicting statements and actions absolutely show a lack of loyalty towards others. LV effectively ruined any chance his team had of qualifying for nationals. Had Oregon not given LV what I assume was a full scholarship they could have got someone who wouldn't have left at crunch time. It shows a huge level of immaturity to not finish the season. What is there to gain by leaving now as opposed to when the semester ends in December? If anyone has an answer to this I'd like to hear it.

" if I'm a future sponsor I'm not sure I like the fact he ditched Oregon"

well, i've sponsored a lot of athletes myself, and have been a keen observer of pros since the sport's beginning. from what i've seen of him, he has a ton of integrity, and if i were sponsoring athletes today, he'd make my final cut of athletes i'd rush to sponsor. i'm pretty sure he'll bring BIG interest to triathlon from footwear companies that have shunned triathlon (at least in the U.S.). if he's going to go the alan webb route and just forego eligibility, i would be pretty surprised if he couldn't sign a big deal with a big footwear brand.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Without knowing LV personally I can't say how much integrity he has or does not have. But I am curious why this decision happened now. To me, leaving Oregon with 3 weeks left in the season shows at worst a lack of integrity or at best a severe lack of maturity. What does it hurt if he runs two more races? To me, taking scholarship money leaves the student athlete with an obligation to the institution and the program.

LV won't have issues getting sponsorship, I agree with you there. But it's good policy to not burn bridges unnecessarily especially given the connection Nike and Oregon have.

Once again, we have no idea why he left, saying he lacks integrity is impossible to know because we don't know why he left. But an 18 year old showing a lack of maturity? Noooo really? I'm sure no one on here ever showed a lack of maturity as an 18 year old.

I disagree with that statement.

2010 Auto Qualifying Mark for D1 Indoor Nationals was 3:59 and over 15 guys hit that.
The Auto mark for 5k was 13:47...

That's the thing, you cannot just go to a conversion calculator and assume he can run sub 28 and be top 10. Jumping 3-5k more...add in grass...add in competition that is better than him...add in coming off a peak in September (which was for a sprint triathlon)... Lukas finished exactly where he should have finished in those races.

Again, I am all for Lukas's decision. It is great for triathlon and took guts to do at the point he did it. I just don't like how people are putting these unreal expectations when they don't understand the depth of where he will be racing. Its more than just 1.5k/40k/10k now. The jump from Junior triathlon races to Elite races are completely different.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

this whole post was trash. he's kicked my butt before, and saying that he cant swim is uneducated. he rides well enough to win Junior Worlds, and then puts down a 15:33 run split...excuse me, but that sounds pretty freakin' fast for an 18 year old who hasn't reached his peak yet. I don't think any of that negative criticism was necessary.

It really doesn't matter to me whether he is a triathlete or runner, I'm a fan of both sports. What I'm concerned with, and the question that not many people are addressing is: why did this decision need to come with less than a month left in the fall semester? why did it take guts? is this a selfish situation?

To posters who are saying that we don't know the facts so we can't question the integrity of leaving mid-season. What fact is going to make this an alright decision? His grades being low...him not being the best...being homesick? Plenty of people decide during their freshman year that their school choice or going to school in general is not for them. When has anyone ever given the advice to leave without finishing? Personally (and I understand this forums joy at getting a top prospect back in the triathlon) the question we should be asking is why did he have to leave now instead of waiting two weeks? Are two weeks really going to allow LV to qualify for the 2012 Olympics?

And my argument was not that LV is one of the 10 best milers or 10 best 3k runners in the NCAA. It was that his credentials should make it possible for him to finish in the top 10 at most races. If you see a guy whose PRs are 3:59 and 7:58, who is a footlocker and NXN champ you expect them to do well. Granted LV did complete a block of triathlon training BUT LV had always mixed triathlon and running training and had success in running (see quote).

From a LV interview:

What kind of summer training did you do in high school to build your base (mileage, cross training)?
"My training consisted of swimming, biking, running. This is a lot different than what high school runners do so I cannot really relate. Per week Average: 20,000-25,000 yards swimming, 110-130 miles biking, 30-40 miles running. The endurance and strength work is done in the pool, while speed and speed-endurance is done on the bike and run. This means that unlike typical triathletes I don’t bike over 40 miles at a time but it’s usually fast. Running is usually always some kind of workout unless it’s a shake out run. Swimming is where the recovery and endurance work is completed." -LV


The point I made in my previous post is that guys with pedigrees lesser than LV have done exceptionally well in the NCAA.

Craig Lutz is a great example. He came into Texas with prs of 4:09 and 8:52. He has finished in 15th place at Wisco, 4th at Big 12, and was 3rd in the South Region. Jeremy Elkaim is another good example. He came into Oregon with prs of 4:12 and 8:46. He finished 20th at Pac 12, 2 spots ahead of LV.
I am not sure where you are getting the sub 28 number from as no one will run, including Lalang or the top guys at any XC meet.

"why did this decision need to come with less than a month left in the fall semester?"

i think we know your position by now. some of us are willing to give the kid the benefit of the doubt, because he is a kid, and because we don't know the circumstances. you apparently are not interested in knowing the circumstances surrounding his decision; not these circumstances, nor anything else, will not alter your view. do i have this about right? please explain yet further if i misunderstand.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

There is no reason to be hostile towards me. Yes, I have a position. This is how you discussions generally work. You present a position or question and hope that someone might address some of the points you've made.

And I am interested in the circumstances surrounding his decision. They certainly could alter my views. But we'll probably never get circumstances and all the evidence points towards LV just wanting to move back to triathlon. I'm not debating LV worth as a human being...just an action he made. I think Slowtwitch and Letsrun both have hard times viewing this objectively as they each have a dog in this fight.

"There is no reason to be hostile towards me."

my growing hostility toward you is based on your incessant pestering of an 18yo kid, even tho you've got zero information on the circumstances behind the decisions he's made. further, to rope letsrun forum participants in as objective, balanced, wise and measured commentators of behavior is, to be as kind as possible, spurious.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Looks like Slowman is the sherrif, judge, and executioner in this place. Probably always gets the last word.

That said, some of others here (coachbarrie and a couple other posters) have made more sense. You can do whatever you want in this country (as long as it's legal) but LV's sudden departure from his team was Not Cool, and I don't care if he was 18. He had less than two weeks of season and two meets remaining and definitely would have been a factor on whether Oregon made it to NCAAs or not.

As for statements by some that he's just not up to collegiate level of running. That's pure poppycock! More like he hadn't had time to recover from a long year, as coachbarrie astutely spelled out earlier in this thread. While he may not be capable of running 28:30 10K right now, given some time, recovery, and additional training he may well have been ready by next summer or fall.

It will be interesting to see how he does at professional triathlon.

With all due respect Dan, I think we do have a pretty good grasp on the circumstances behind his decisions. The natural reaction for many was that he was frusterated with his performance and/or wasnt adjusting to NCAA cross country and/or thought he could perform better in tris. People speculated that there could have been other factors, including poor school performance, falling out of some kind with Vin and/or the team, family pressure, etc. He has given interviews since making his decision, though, that have essentially shot down these theories. One of these interviews is one the front page here even, saying that it was a difficult decision (ie. not a forced situation) and that both oregon and his family tried to convince him to stay. He has also stated that he thinks he can make a bigger impact on the world scene in tris than running, and that this played a role in his decision. By his own account, he decided that he would rather pursue tris and that he made this decision by himself. Unless he is flat out lying about something, then we know plenty about the circumstances. My position, therefore, remains that he acted in a selfish and unprofessional way by abandoing his team the week of regionals and quite possibly causing his team to miss out on nationals

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http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18295
Gustav Larsson supporter

Oregon missed out on an at-large bid to NCAA's after losing to Washington St and Cal at Regionals, who they beat at Pac 12s. As someone who has run cross country I know that things change week to week. However, I also know that on an average day Oregon gave up 25-30 points by not having Lukas (At Pac 12s it would have been 25 points but obviously regionals is a larger meet, so more points per second between missing runner and the 6th runner given same time difference).

My only concern in this whole matter was how his actions would effect the 6 other Oregon runners who relied on him.

1. Welcome Barrie Shepley. The Slowtitch forum is a better place for having you on board. For those not in the know, Barrie is the highest ranking triathlon Coach in Canada and is also the long-time play-by-play guy for the ITU online coverage as well as the CBC's TV coverage of triathlon. He's been around since the very early days of the sport and seen it all.

2. I have mixed feelings about what seemed to be an abrupt departure of Lukas Verzbicas from Oregon. I raced in fairly competitive XC running seasons through my time in high school and university and I know how important the guys that score on the team can me. Take out any one of the top 4 scorers on the team and you go from a podium spot to way down in the rankings as a team really quickly. It does appear to be a situation of letting the team down substantially, and not just any XC team - this was the freaking Oregon Ducks with a rich and very deep distance running heritage. This is not a running program you just turn your back on! But perhaps the whole scene, and situation was overwhelming him. Still how hard would it have been to hang in for a few more weeks and run a couple more races?

3. I said this is another thread, and really in my view is the most important thing about all of this - for the sport of triathlon in the U.S., at many levels, this is a huge game-changer!! In terms of raw triathlon talent, the U.S. is the greatest country in the world!! It has the biggest and deepest talent pool of swimmers that can run and runners that can swim. By rights, the U.S. should be ruling in the sport of triathlon at the high performance end at all levels - but the country clearly is not. The problem is that these swimmers with latent run skills and the runners with the latent swim skills stick to the single sports because, the carrot for most of these kids is the College Scholarship in swimming or running. The college programs are so demanding, that they can only focus on the one sport and triathlon is forgotten. So here we have a very talented runner who can swim, who is the world junior triathlon champion, and has after a bit of a hiccup, decided that, he wants to focus on triathlon - potentially a first for an athlete at this level in the U.S. with this level of skill, talent and potential to do that! This is great news if you are a fan of the sport, and in particular if you are American and a fan of the sport of triathlon.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yes. See Jeremy Bloom from CU for confirmation. Was accepting endorsement money as a skiier, and they (The NCAA) denied him eligibility to play football. Tim Dwight was paid roughly 1.5 million to play pro football, but they allowed him to return to compete in track after he returned endorsement money. (Ohio? Iowa? Somewhere in there).

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Its a tricky question. If he gets endorsement money from NIKE (not likely them, now) he is pretty much done NCAA wide, although Galen Rupp was allowed to take money and pay it back to regain eligability.

If he gets sponsership from USAT only, I'm not sure, that may be looked at like the Tim Dwight situation. Stuff like this gets a NCAA individual ruling and they aren't always sensible or consistent.

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Styrrell

He's only 18 years old! 18 year olds sometimes make decisions that you might not make as an adult. I know its been said before that there is a major change from HS to college running. He feels like he is making the the right decision, and he is a different situation. While most people "peak" in hs its because they don't move onto the next level and just let go of sports, this kid has a huge amount of talent. He has years to develop, and this kid will be a force later on if things go right. Is 2012 a stretch? Yes it is, but when I was 18 I said that I was going to be a rock star...nothing wrong with stretching or reaching for major goals.

People can have their own opinion but I no need to really hate on this kid. Look at the US talent coming up for triathlon...he is probably the new wave of it.

Its a tricky question. If he gets endorsement money from NIKE (not likely them, now) he is pretty much done NCAA wide, although Galen Rupp was allowed to take money and pay it back to regain eligability.

Indeed, given the close ties that Nike has with the program at U of O ( I believe that Nike co-founder Phil Knight has a say in what goes on with the program at U of O in some way, and possibly a financial backer as well), I am sure that Nike may be out as a potential sponsor for him in triathlon. But with all due respect, Nike has not done a lot in triathlon for a while now and it's clearly not a priority for them.

But in terms of NCAA eligibility it may be moot - unless he wants to run for the school program at the U of C in C-Springs. If he's going to be full-on with triathlon, I am not sure of the good of that for someone like LV, with 5-star run credentials already. The run-and-race-with-the-varsity-XC-team gig, I believe is a better option for the runner who still needs to develop top-end run speed and strength.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'd run in those shoes! Nike Vz, Asics 'Bicas, whatever - as long as they make 'em in a 15.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Ryan Sissons did not win the YOG- it was Aaron Barclay- who has not made any ripples on the ITU scene since. There is a huge difference between junior racing and the pointy end of the WCS races. The physical nature of a WCS swim will certainly be a shock the first time if LV gets a start- you just can't prepare for that kind of abuse and it takes more than a few of those same experiences to know how to handle it- much less stick with the group and make it to the bike with the group.

In addition, Phil Knight was a middle distance runner under Bill Bowerman at Oregon in the late 50s. He ran something like a 4:10 mile.

Verzbicas is staying in college. He made a decision on what college to attend and what sport to participate in during college (well, he made these decisions twice now, this his 2nd time. Poor timing if you as me but that's another discussion). He has a scholarship to both schools and opportunities in both sports. It's a decision on where to go to school but mostly what sport to do in college, with a few different elements (one place you're part of a team, the other you're doing basically an individual sport).
As a former college runner turned triathlete late in life, I have mixed feelings. I'm now 27. If I would have learned to really swim before nearly age 25, that would have helped a TON for my triathlon success. However, college running for a great program is an incredible experience. Now, LV has more talent than me by far in both sports, so I'll leave the decision up to him.

There are other athletes choosing the college tri team over the track team. It's more common than we think. Now, I think those kids are dumb if they are great runners, especially since tri isn't a scholarship NCAA sport. But, this is the first time when tri really can be considered a scholarship sport to do while in college. This changes things.

As far as talk about making the Olympics, I think 2016 is possible for LV. But when I heard he was referring to next year....wow, good luck with that. That's a very big long shot but heck, can't blame a kid for dreaming big.

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Ryan Borger - Denver, CO: Realtor. Former pro triathlete/coach. Cancer survivor. podiumproperties.com

Crap, if 27 is "late in life" then I must be writing this from "the other side" and I never saw the white light.

Not directed at you but...why is it assumed that it will be a good thing when (if?) triathlon becomes an NCAA sport?

tri will never be an NCAA sport...

Man do I hope you're right....not that I'll see it, but my school is a student body of 1,000 people, and 75% of our team already runs, swims, or rows, as well as one wide receiver.

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IG: idking90

No, some of us are willing to throw this ADULT softball questions in maybe the lamest interview I've ever read. Seriously, to not ask him why he ditched his Oregon teammates??? All ST had to do was ask him, and there would be no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yes, we are interested in knowing, but you aren't interested in finding out. And you are being a big baby by taking offense to those who question you. Take your page and go home?

GB,

As I pointed out previously, I have mixed feelings about the sudden split with U of O and the ramifications for the team. But it's done. We can't change the past.

Why not turn this around now and look at it as a HUGE positive for the sport of triathlon in the U.S. Read Dan's article just posted up on the front page. If you really understand what's going on there, then you get this.

As I said, the U.S. as a country should be doing WAY better at elite level triathlon competition, at all levels, in all formats and at all distances . . . but it's not. It lags behind many other smaller countries with far less resources and miniscule talent pools compared to what the U.S. has. LV's move and what he does could be a real game-changer for triathlon in the U.S.. Why not look at it in that light?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

an Olympic medal in triathlon is about as meaningful as a gold in the Modern Pentathlon.

In what countries?

You know that when Pakistan is eliminated before the medal round in Field Hockey, team members need to hire security for their houses at home so that disgruntled fans don't vandalize them! FIY, they take their Field Hockey very seriously in Pakistan. Ditto for Badminton in Malaysia - it's the national sport!!

I get your point, but this varies from country to country and depends on among other things, how much media coverage a sport gets in a country. In Canada, the mens triathlon race at the Beijing Olympic Games had the biggest TV viewership numbers of any sports event from the Olympic Games by a long shot!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Thats just because they were so confused that people were doing something outside that wasn't on snow or ice :)

Because I'm not willing to give him a pass and pat on the back like Dan and ST is. Not only did he completely screw over his teammates, he also took a scholarship away from another adult that probably would have given a body part to run for Oregon. Don't you think just about every good HS distance runner in this country would kill to run there? And LV pissed it away.

Face it, he took the easy way out. He ran 40-45 miles a week and expected to compete at D1 on talent alone. And he got his butt handed to him. In my opinion, he completely underestimated just how good these D1 runners are, and it appears to me many of his supporters are taking the exact same approach to his tri hopes. I hope he gets his butt handed to him repeatedly this year by some mid-level pros. I really do. 40-45 miles a week this past summer? Seriously? My HS daughter runs more than that. Anyone who runs competitively knows that 120 miles a week cycling helps your running exactly 0%. Amazingly talented, but not much for character, and I'm not sure he knows how to work hard. We'll see.

I find this whole discussion about as insightful as the "Lance Armstrong will run an Olympic Trials qualifier in his first marathon" threads that dominated this board a couple of years ago.

Bottom line, this ADULT punked his team. They are sitting home because he bailed on them. That's a fact. And I bet it doesn't bother him one bit. I fail to see how this is good for tri. Sorry.

it takes 2 to tango. oregon knew exactly what it was getting into when it recruited LV and operates a program that, at best, operates in the grey area. you really shouldn't lose any sleep feeling sorry for the poor ducks in this regard as it was a pleasing to see them get trounced at regionals.

also, did you bother to even look at the regionals results? my guess is that you did not otherwise you wouldn't be blaming him for the fact that they aren't going to terre haute next week. it's not like adding him and taking the 8th guy off their team would have made a big enough difference to get them there.

he also took a scholarship away from another adult that probably would have given a body part to run for Oregon. Don't you think just about every good HS distance runner in this country would kill to run there? And LV pissed it away.

Indeed. This is the Oregon Ducks we are talking about. You don't just turn your back on a legendary running program like that. That's why real runners are apoplectic about this. It's added significantly to the profile of it all. I am guessing had it been another non-descript, low profile, Div 1 school with no distance running history, that level of incredulity amongst the running population would be significantly diminished.

Face it, he took the easy way out. He ran 40-45 miles a week and expected to compete at D1 on talent alone. And he got his butt handed to him. In my opinion, he completely underestimated just how good these D1 runners are, and it appears to me many of his supporters are taking the exact same approach to his tri hopes.

We're talking about the same kid here right? The one that broke 4 minutes for the mile, ran 8:29 for two miles and beat all the top runners in the nation two years running at the XC Nationals? He had two off races for his first two college races and you are writing him off completely as a runner?

With regards to his tri hopes, there is work to be done, and it's still a long way to go, but I am encouraged by two things:

1. The precedent the this has set for triathlon in the U.S. ( few seem to understand that this is a key issue)

2. Whether we like it or not, world class triathlon competition when the field is deep and competitive, will come down to the run. LV's got amazing run talent. Something to build on and if he can work his way into it and be in the hunt over the final few K's of the run in a triathlon, I see him being very successful!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Actually, Oregon would've made it in to NCAAs as an at-large team based upon their 10 wins. And it makes no sense to say that Oregon should've foreseen this. LV came off what I think was the best year for a high school runner in America. He made a commitment to Oregon. And Fleck is right, he let down the most storied collegiate running program in the world.

Fleck is also right that this is good news for the sport of triathlon. LV is an incredible talent, whether it is in triathlon or running. I think he'll have success at the next level (although probably not in 2012). Triathlon should be happy that LV has returned to this sport...just not in the way that he did.

After reading the article about LV stepfather coaching at the Elite Tri Academy, I had one question. Didn't LV parents encourage him to stay at Oregon? If this is the case and his stepfather encouraged him to stay, isn't it strange that others in the Elite Tri Academy encouraged him to leave. Seems like a weird situation. I apologize if this is not factual...just gave it a quick read through this morning.

LV has said his family encouraged him to stay at OU, but in the end he made his own mind up.

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Styrrell

I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about more. He is far and away one of the most hyped and talked about hs runners in recent years, and for him to choose triathlon before college is absolutely unprecedented. It is huge for a high profile runner like him to 'turn to the dark side' - and in such a controversial manner. While he is catching a ton of flak for the timing - I think his decision may ultimately give the sport some legitimacy amongst highschool and collegiate runners, who may be encouraged to turn to the sport sooner than they may have otherwise. The only other time I've seen triathlon mentioned on letsrun was when LV won worlds this summer, and when Sean Jefferson (former NCAA mile champ) left the oregon track club and started races tris professionally.

In recent years, there's obviously been been a number of great swimmers or runners who've turned to triathlon when their hopes of heading to the Olympics in their respective sports became unrealistic after college, and as Dan points out in the article on the front page, most of the US's top performing ITU athletes follow that model. That model does work, and I think USAT should continue to seek out those athletes, but they also need to work to keep some of the most promising talent already in the sport, in the sport - as the sharks/cheetahs all have the uphill battle of learning a second and third sport (or relearning at the very least, having missed 4+ years). The exception (and anomoly) is of course Gwen Jorgenson, who swam AND ran at Wisco and is one of the best pure distance runners in the country. LV is considerably younger than Gwen, so I don't think we'll see the same rapid progression (turning pro in her first race, and winning a world cup and qualifying for the Olympics 14 months after mounting a bicycle for the first time), but I do think people will be surprised how rapidly he rises to the top of the sport (assuming he stays healthy). Rare talents like that are few and far between, but when an athlete comes to triathlon from the top of another sport (particularly running, where the depth of talent is larger than any other), they have the potential to make an enormous impact. In addition to hoping that he himself has a positive impact on the US's ITU prowess, I also hope it encourages further development programs for talented athletes.

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Twitter | Kancman | Blog

a great athlete can MAKE an event a big deal, with a great performance.

a gold in triathlon in the USA may not be a big deal now, but if an american wins gold in spectacular fashion with high drama, it could become a big deal.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

You said: "Triathlon's getting more competitive by the day. I'd say that the gold medal in triathlon has a lot of worth and requires a ton of hard work to get there. While you might say it doesn't equate to the longer distance running events in terms of worth, I disagree. Having run competitively for 6 years I met many very successful, top level(at least region-wide) runners. Of those runners several admit that the training required in triathlon is about equal if not harder than the professional running scene. To compare my collegiate training schedule as a d1 athlete to triathlon; I ran about 60 miles a week with about an hour of strength. Maybe 10 hours total for the week. For triathlon that number is nearly double, and I would say the dedication needed is also more than running"

You are confusing training load, with overall competitiveness. Just because some triathletes train more than marathoners, does not mean that the talent pool in triathlon is as deep.

Running is simple, inexpensive and accessible and open to the entire world. The same is not true of triathlon. I can't think of any individual sport that identifies and develops talent better and more globally than running. I suspect there are extremely few people out there that have the innate ability to be world class, that are not competing in the sport. The same likely cannot be said of most other sports.

Good point. It could be something like what this did for rally in the US. Hardly anyone even knew what it was before that moment, now all the kids a wrecking their Subarus. Of course they also think Block and Pastrana are the best drivers in the world. . .

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It seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

40-45 a week is plenty for world class 1500/3000 runners. Not for 8-10K. Not even close. Basically, he ran half of what he should have.

I'm not writing him off as a runner, especially at the 1500/3000. However, 10K is a different beast altogether. He hasn't shown anything yet at that distance, and many are anointing him the next great ITU superstar. Running a 30 flat in a tri is a feat very few GOOD 10K runners can accomplish. The good ITU guys are freaks. I see no evidence yet that LV is one of them. I'm not writing him off, but I'm not annointing him as the next coming either.

And I'm pissed at the way he punked his team. And he hasn't apologized so I think he deserves a few lumps.

I agree completely with your first and last paragraphs. His teammates especially would not have seen this coming. They've taken the high road and wished him well, but they can't be the slightest bit happy about this.

And yes, something seems weird about what is going on in Colorado Springs with regards to this.

I gotta agree w/ GB... don't care how good he is or could/will be in Tri, that's utterly beside the point. If it were my kid, I'd tell him he made a deal and bailing on it with only a couple weeks left and the biggest meet(s) of the season coming up is a sorry way to represent the family. Yeah, yeah, we don't make the same choices at 18 that we make at 38 or 58, sure, but he's a legal adult which is old enough to start being held accountable for shit like voting and military service...

What would all his apologists say if he joined the Army and decided after less than a year "Hey, I really appreciate the opportunity and all, but I'm walking away to pursure my true calling..." Uh, sorry kid. I know, not all contracts are binding/enforced to the same extent and a UO/NCAA scholarship isn't exactly the same level as the Feds/military, but the principle isn't really different. Again, if it were my kid (and I do have one in HS, so not THAT far off) I'd tell him he F'ed up to be so brazenly me-first about his commitment even if it'll work out better for him. Really, in the long run, how much would it have cost him to finish the season and THEN bail so they could just recycle his scholarship the following year (which happens all the time in college sports and none of us would have called him out for).

40 to 45 a week is pathetically low mileage and will get you no-where on the world scene. Any world class runner that tells you they only run that much is talking crap.

He (LV) has the speed. Stamina is easy. He's got the potential just has to do the training. 10k isn't going to be an issue for a sub 4 minute miler. One of my mates has a 3:59PB and 28:00 10k road. As I say, once you've got the speed, the stamina is easy.

I support athletes doing whatever they choose without any loyalty anymore - because no-one is loyal to them. Not least the college system doesn't seem to have the athletes interests at heart anyway.

His loyalty lies in doing what is best for his own goals, dreams, financial and competitive future at all times. He's number 1 in his book and I'd support that path.

As for the carry on on Lets Run - what a bunch of tossers. Screw them.

TheGuardian, I agree wholeheartedly.

To the poster whom you quoted, cjathey, I'd be really curious to know who these top level division one xc runners who run 60 mpw and do one hour of strength a week.

In reality, most top Division 1 teams are doing much more. For example, U. of Michigan runners under Coach Gibby are running between 90-110 mpw in addition to several hours of weightlifting and drills. Portland, is also a high mileage program. I know this from having close friends on these teams. Look up Josh McDougal's old running logs. He was running 100+ mpw at paces few can dream of, running them mostly in singles.Most successful Division 3 programs are doing more volume than this.

However, to compare triathlon training and running training is comparing apples and oranges. Running many miles is much tougher on the body than triathlon training, because, the specificity is more broad. This doesn't mean that one is easier than the other. Personally, I find triathlon to be the harder sport but that's because I'm a poor swimmer.

Additionally, I would say that it's an athlete's unique physiology that makes them suited for a particular distance. Despite having run 3:46, there is and never was any chance of Alan Webb, or El Guerrouj for that matter running anywhere near the 10k world record of 26:17. They are different energy systems. That said, and to bring this back to LV, he has shown great range. For those interested in methods of comparing runners objectively, I'd encourage people to investigate Bill Meylan's speed rating system.

http://tullyrunners.com/Articles.htm

I'll explain this poorly but runners are given a numerical value, their speed rating, which compare three things, finish in relation to other individual runners of known ability, finish time on a race course of known speed, especially when the speed is known relative to other race courses
and the quality of the race itself in relation to other races. In general, speed ratings are pretty reliable. LV, recorded a 207 at Footlocker and a 203 at NXN. While not an indicator of where he may finish in an 8k or 10k, it shows that his ability to run well in cross country is a fact. For comparison, Chris Solinsky recorded a 212 when he won Footlocker as a senior and when AJ Acosta won he ran 207.

Personally, I think that if LV stays healthy and focused, his ability to run a quality 10k will not be the issue. His biggest hurdle will be making sure he is in position after the swim and bike.

Very few world class runners at 1500 to 3000 get by on 40-45 miles per week. Maybe in their off season and peak racing, but the rest of the year (fall and winter base phase, spring build up?) Get real.

And for 10000 being a 'different beast' that's kind of a yes and no. It just takes some time, but Verzbicas ran 14:06 indoors for the US high school record last spring. He had a remarkable running year, and to top it off with a WJC in triathlon. It's no wonder he was flat in the two races he ran this fall. In hindsight a redshirt season might have been the wisest thing to do.

If he does focus on triathlon, then we may well have seen most of the best of him. He'll improve at 5K and 10K no doubt, but who knows whether he'll improve to sub 13:30 sub 28, which is where he'd have been if he'd stuck with running for another year or two; and late-post college career who knows? The only thing for certain is now we won't know.

Just some reading material

http://tonireavis.com/...athlon-over-running/

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...115,0,3122056.column

Well, that's what LV ran over the summer. As I said, only about half of what he should. He can get away with that kind of low mileage doing 1600/3200, but why he ran that before D1 XC is beyond me. But I thought he was No 1 in your book... Tosser.


n of 1. Yawn. By that extension, Usain Bolt should take up tri. Tosser.


I guess this is how triathletes think. Selfish bunch of tossers. The college system might not have the athletes' best interests at heart, but LV had 6 teammates counting on him, and he bailed rather than sticking out the remaining 2. I think he was afraid to run Nationals and get his butt handed to him. Methinks the tosser is LV.

Supporting the attitude that it's ok to bail on your mates makes you the tosser, tosser.

What he said, except I still will sit back and wait to see what kind of 10K he can run off the bike.

Any way you look at it, he is an awesome runner and this brings some excitement to the sport. I coached against him in IL. and he was pretty incredible. I had my fastest miler I ever coached and I didn't run him in the mile because I knew he would take a top 3 and Lucas would beat him by 10 sec. (My guy ended up first in the 400 2nd in the 800). I remember one time AFTER the CC meet his dad pulled him out on the track and he ran a killer interval set.

Our entire team was on that plan. I wish you had read more clearly when I said to compare MY own experience from d1 to triathlon. I didn't say the other runners I know are running 60 mpw.

Well, that's what LV ran over the summer. As I said, only about half of what he should. He can get away with that kind of low mileage doing 1600/3200, but why he ran that before D1 XC is beyond me. But I thought he was No 1 in your book... Tosser.

LV is a great high school runner, he isn't yet a "world class runner" what he ran and what a world class runner runs are different. The why he ran that before D1 XC isn't a secret, he was traing for and won the Junior tri WC.

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Styrrell