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50+ miles running per week
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I hear some people talk about running 50+ miles per week and would love to work my mileage up to something close to that, maybe 40 - 45. What do your weekly runs look like? I imagine your running much faster than me but how many miles per workout and what type of run are they?

What mileage did you see signinficant gains?

KC
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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For me, I'll run 5 times a week, with one long run on the weekend that's at least 12, usually more like 15-20. There'll be a long-ish run mid-week that's usually 11. The rest tend to be 5-8 miles.
It helps that I am able to mix up trail runs and road runs; even more, it helps that I'm able to mix up solo runs, runs with my gf, and runs with my running group.

I free up a lot of time by never ever swimming.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [Bob Loblaw] [ In reply to ]
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I assume the 5-8 mile runs are tempo type runs. The longish mid week run is at what pace?
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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A typical 50 mile week might look like this for me:

M - Off
T - 10mi easy tempo
W - 2x3mi AT, 9mi total
Th - 8mi easy tempo AM/6mi easy tempo PM
F - Off
S - 6mi very easy
S - 15mi ~M pace + 15-30s

easy tempo for me is typically marathon pace + 45s, but could be faster or slower depending on how I feel. This is just one example week, every week is different.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I assume the 5-8 mile runs are tempo type runs. The longish mid week run is at what pace?

I don't worry that much about pace, actually. I'd even say that for much of the year, I don't worry about pace at all. I go faster when I feel like it, slower when I feel like it. The way things work out, there will be enough days when the guys in my running group will feel like gunning it a little, that I'll wind up getting some faster miles in.

If there's an important race approaching, I'll get more structured, and have a mix of track workouts and tempo runs. (My normal running has enough hills in it that I rarely do specific hill workouts). But even then, I'll do plenty of 5-8 mile runs that are just basic runs. I'd guess anywhere from 7:45 to 9 minute miles, depending on the terrain, who I'm running with, and how I'm feeling (up to 10 minute miles on technical and/or hilly trails). My marathon race pace, for comparison, is a little under 7 minutes per mile.

The longish mid week run pace depends mostly on if I had enough sleep the night before, if there is good scenery on the running path, etc Last week it was pretty fast, just because it was cold and rainy and i wanted to get home.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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The problem most triathletes have which inhibits them from ever running close to their potential is their standard bread and butter run is 3-4 miles.

Fix that and running 50 mpw means you can get your 50 off of 5-6 runs no worries.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I run 70+ per week. I keep it simple. Daily runs of 8-12 miles. If I'm training for a specific race like a marathon, I'll lengthen a run out to 20 or so miles. When I was running 50 MPW, it was daily runs of 6-8 miles. For the most part I run at whatever pace I feel like on any particular day. Some days are faster than others, some have speed during a run., but most are at an easy pace. I very rarely spend time running at race pace during training, but I race very often so that's when I run hard.

IMO, if the goal is base building the key is just getting in the miles on a consistent basis. The structured plans with intervals, tempos, and long runs are what I do in a race specific plan, not for base training.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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My 40mi week looks like this:
Day1 8mi to include 4x1200m(3min)I-pace
Day2 5mi easy
Day3 10mi to include 6mi@T-pace
Day4 5mi easy
Day5 off
Day6 8mi to include 8x400m(400m) R-pace
Day7 5mi easy

This is modified Daniels 5-15k, Phase III, Week 2. Do not attempt this alone at home as injury may result. If you have never ran before 40mi/week, doing this and building mileage may hurt you.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I've experienced the opposite with triathletes - 3 and 4 mile runs being too short for consideration in a program and are completely skipped while building volume on 3 or 4 runs per week. I feel this (as mentioned in another thread) is more the case for a majority of athletes. I'm building to 50 with weeks that look like:

Mon - 3-4 mi ez
Tues - 8-9 w/ some tempo (:20 - 30 mins total)
Wed - 4-5 ez
Thurs - 8-9 w/ some strides
Fri - 3-4 ez
Sat off (training not possible due to work schedule)
Sun - 14-16 ez

... and will be adding miles 2-3 at a time (spreading out the additions so each run gets 0.5-1 mile) each week beginning with the shorter runs, then the mid-length runs and finally the long run. Not much speed in there, but while building volume it's definitely better to keep the majority easy.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [TomkR] [ In reply to ]
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The typical triathlete looks more like this:

Day 1: 3-4
Day 2: 3-4
Day 3: nothing
Day 4: 3-4
Day 5: nothing
Day 6: 12-14
Day 7: nothing

I agree they skip those short runs which in turns means they don't have enough run frequency. When they do run they typically don't run with enough duration day in day out to really make improvements that will matter.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Let me expand that out about 3 weeks:


In Reply To:
The typical triathlete looks more like this:

Day 1: 3-4
Day 2: 3-4
Day 3: nothing
Day 4: 3-4
Day 5: nothing
Day 6: 12-14
Day 7: nothing
Day 8: ouch ouch ouch ouch
Day 9: running sucks
Day 10: damnit, I have to run
Day 11: 8
Day 12: that wasn't so bad
Day 13: 16
Day 14: ouch ouch ouch ouch
Day 15: ouch ouch ouch ouch
Day 16: running sucks
Day 17: damnit, I have to run
Day 18: 8
Day 19: that wasn't so bad
Day 20: 18
Day 21: ouch ouch ouch ouch
Day 22: ouch ouch ouch
Day 23: I think I have an injury
Day 24: I'm not consistent enough
Day 25: Better sign up for a marathon so I have a goal
Day 26: 22
Day 27: yup, I'm definitely injured
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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Here was my last week....

Monday - Run Club 4.28 Miles easy
Tuesday - 7.22 easy
Weds - 7.06 Track Workout
Thurs - 5.18 Easy
Friday - 7.01 Easy
Sat - Off
Sunday - 11.14 Long

41.89 Miles


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I run 4-5 days per week which comes out to 45-60 miles per week.
1 moderate run
1 tempo or speed run
1 easy 30-40 minute run
1 long run
1 transition run (when on schedule)
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I only touch 50+ mpw during my peak week before a marathon or 50K. My last one looked like this:

Sun 26.2 mile long run (training marathon)
Mon Cross Train (swim, elliptical)
Tue 5 mile tempo run
Wed 10 mile "mini" long run
Thu 4 mile tempo run plus weights
Fri 6 mile easy run
Sat Cross Train (swim, elliptical, weights)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I'll throw a different scheduling approach in to mix it up, though this is slightly short of your objective. It might not be ideal and the resident experts may weigh in with warnings, but I haven't raced this year and pretty much follow this schedule because I enjoy running and hate to take the bus. My office being 4.5 miles away and having a clean shower available makes it workable:
M - run commute 4.5 miles, 6 miles
T - bike commute and swim PM
W - run commute 4.5 miles, 6-7 miles with some type of speed if I feel good.
Th - bike commute and swim PM
F - run commute 4.5 miles, 6-7 miles ideally with a few at tempo
Sa - swim, bike, hike or something else non running
Sun - run 8-10, usually trail
Took a year to build the durability to be able to maintain this and feel like it's natural. The winter snows will change it all up and I'll focus on the x-country skiing, but will still run 6-7 times per week regardless. Frequency is king - though I don't really follow Barry P's advice, I think it is an excellent approach.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [TomkR] [ In reply to ]
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hahaha, classic and yet so true. Sadly many triathletes never quite figure out what is so wrong with that approach.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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A 50 mile bread & butter week for me would look something like this:

Long run (x1): 2:15, easy (usually 4:45-4:55 pace depending on terrain)
Medium runs (x2): 1 @ 1:30, mostly easy with some hill reps (ie 8x1min) or shorter intervals (ie 3x4min) or just using terrain to vary intensity; 1 @ 1:30, mostly easy with the middle 3rd at tempo (or upcoming race pace, if any)
Short runs (x3): 2 @ 0:45, both easy (around 5:00+/- pace); 1 @ 0:10, easy transition run

Total: 6:55, or around 85km (53 miles) give or take.

I'm not advocating you do this, just sayin' ('cos you asked)...

What mileage did you see signinficant gains?

By averaging 80.4km per week (almost 50 miles precisely), min 40, max 100, over a period of 26 weeks this past off-season.



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not running 50mpw right now, but was not very long ago (and plan to be again after a post-IM break). Here's are two actual weeks, chosen randomly:

Mo: 4 (recovery)
Tu: 7.2
We: 9.6 (including hill repeats)
Th: off
Fr: 10.7
Sa: 3.1 (off the bike)
Su: 18

Mo: 3.1 (recovery)
Tu: 6.3
We: 5.4 (including 400m repeats)
Th: 10
Fr: 7.2
Sa: 18
Su: off


----
Michael
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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It's amazing to me how rarely people do a 50 mile week like this:

Mon: 7.15
Tues: 7.15
Wed: 7.15
Thur: 7.15
Fri: 7.15
Sat: 7.15
Sun: 7.15

Everyone "cheats" with a long run. Sure, long runs are important, especially for marathon and long course tri. But you can get REALLY fast just running a decent amount EVERY day. If we were talking about 1/2 marathon (open or in a 1/2 IM), I'd rather take the guy with this schedule who maybe throws in 3 long runs of say 10-12 miles (which would be a breeze off this base) than the guy who mostly runs 5 miles, but uses a weekly long run to jack up his mileage.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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Typical week for me looks like this:

M: Rest
T: 8 miles
W: 6 miles
Th: 8 - 11 miles
Fri: 6 miles
Sat.: 8 miles
Sun.: 16 - 18 miles

I'll work in some tempo work on T & Th, otherwise the rest is done at a comfortable pace. Occasionally I'll run the Sunday run at a hard pace.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's amazing to me how rarely people do a 50 mile week like this:

Mon: 7.15
Tues: 7.15
Wed: 7.15
Thur: 7.15
Fri: 7.15
Sat: 7.15
Sun: 7.15

Everyone "cheats" with a long run. Sure, long runs are important, especially for marathon and long course tri. But you can get REALLY fast just running a decent amount EVERY day. If we were talking about 1/2 marathon (open or in a 1/2 IM), I'd rather take the guy with this schedule who maybe throws in 3 long runs of say 10-12 miles (which would be a breeze off this base) than the guy who mostly runs 5 miles, but uses a weekly long run to jack up his mileage.


I don't think anybody uses long runs to "jack up their mileage". What would be the point? The bragging rights to a high mpw figure are pretty weak. Those who do weekly long runs do them because they want to, or due to a specific training plan for a long race. The fact that weekly mileage goes up fast with a long run is irrelevant.

IMO, if training for a 1/2 marathon, a weekly long run in the 12-14 mile range makes sense. For a marathon, make it 20 miles (not every week). For a 50K, do one or two 25 mile runs.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Nov 7, 10 14:15
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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actually there is a good bit of value in getting to the point where you can run 7-8 miles day in day out and not have it cause you to miss a day, especially if you are doing that with all your other training.

The point I was emphasizing earlier is most triathletes never really get to that point, which no matter how well they bike, leaves them running at a sub optimal pace.

For about 18 months, I didn't run over 10 miles, but was still getting in about 50 per week doing just what you described.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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DD - I've been reading your posts long enough to know that's EXACTLTY where you were going. I just figured I'd make the path to the watering hole clearer. ;)
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Of course, long runs are valuable especially for the marathon. However, they too often become the focus for people's training and cross the 25% of total weekly volume rule oset out by Daniels and many others. Following this guidance, a regular 15 miler is part of a 60 mpw. Daniels allows exceptions for marathon training, but even then it shouldn't be more than 33% of weekly mileage, which still implies 60 mpw. My point is that you need consistent DAILY mileage to get the most out of your long runs because the long run ends up not being too strenuous. You need good daily mileage before the long run. I believe it was MattinSF who said that speed work was the icing on the cake and before you get to >40 mpw, then you don't even have a cake. To some degree, I think that applies to long runs as well. Until you can run 6 miles everyday without a break, you shouldn't worry about long runs too much.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's amazing to me how rarely people do a 50 mile week like this:

Mon: 7.15
Tues: 7.15
Wed: 7.15
Thur: 7.15
Fri: 7.15
Sat: 7.15
Sun: 7.15

Everyone "cheats" with a long run. Sure, long runs are important, especially for marathon and long course tri. But you can get REALLY fast just running a decent amount EVERY day. If we were talking about 1/2 marathon (open or in a 1/2 IM), I'd rather take the guy with this schedule who maybe throws in 3 long runs of say 10-12 miles (which would be a breeze off this base) than the guy who mostly runs 5 miles, but uses a weekly long run to jack up his mileage.

This post doesn't make much sense to me. All mass start running race results are primarily determined based on your running AT. Weekly mileage is less correlated to your AT that most people guess. How you structure your weekly mileage is even less correlated. And there is certainly no proof that running the exact same mileage 7 days/week is preferable to, say running longer some days and running less others. I actually believe the opposite.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly don't know what's 'better' from a purely physiological perspective, but I do know that (a) I enjoy mixing up my runs -- some long, some short, some hard, some easy -- and that if I'm enjoying my running, I'm more likely to do more of it; and (b) when I'm training for an IM or a marathon, I want to get in some 18-20 mile runs, and as long as they don't totally dominate my running for the week, I don't stress too much about whether they are 25% or 33% or 38.36% of my total mileage. But that's just me, and I just do this stuff for fun.


----
Michael
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think people should run the same distance every day. But I do believe a lot of people rely on the long run to get their mileage up and I believe their long runs constitute too high a proportion of their total weekly mileage. As i said in a subsequent post, the long run shouldn't really be more than 25% of your weekly volume. I think most people should be aiming for greater consistency. Most people on this board would do themselves well by getting to the point that they can run 7-8 miles every day.

Also, better way to vary workouts rather than mileage would be incorporate changes in intensity and terrain.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
his post doesn't make much sense to me...

Sure it does in the context of this thread. Most triathletes have crappy running habits. They run 3-4x per week with minimal mileage during their daily day in day out runs. Then they do a long run.

If you follow this thread, what a few of us are saying is if you get you are running 6-7x per week 7 or so miles per run, you are probably well ahead of what a normal triathlete runs in a normal week. Got it?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I'm building up to 55 right now. Here is my last week:

M- Rest or cross train

T- 9 miles with 5 miles at half marathon pace

W- 5 mile recovery run( easy pace)

Th- 10 miles at whatever pace I feel

F- Cross train/recovery/rest

Sat- 6.2 mile race

Sun- 16 mile long run

Total for the week- 46.2


I have been building up to this since June and plan on being at 50 + weekly miles by the end of November.

Good luck
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
his post doesn't make much sense to me...

Sure it does in the context of this thread. Most triathletes have crappy running habits. They run 3-4x per week with minimal mileage during their daily day in day out runs. Then they do a long run.

If you follow this thread, what a few of us are saying is if you get you are running 6-7x per week 7 or so miles per run, you are probably well ahead of what a normal triathlete runs in a normal week. Got it?

I have no idea what most triathletes or the average triathlete does or doesn't do in terms of their run training. I don't think triathletes should run 6-7 days/week. I don't even think runners should run 7 days/week except at the elite level.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
his post doesn't make much sense to me...


if you get you are running 6-7x per week 7 or so miles per run, you are probably well ahead of what a normal triathlete runs in a normal week. Got it?

That's clear. And what's also clear is that if you do something silly like 5-5-5-5-5-0-25 then you are at best asking for trouble.

But OP says we wants to run 50mpw and wants to know a decent way to do it. I agree that running 7 miles 7 times per week is a 'decent' way to do it, and will put you way ahead of 'most triathletes' (which from what I can tell wouldn't take much). I also think that there are better, and (for me at least) very much more interesting, ways to break up that 50 miles. (And again, speaking for myself, I'm pretty sure that I would pretty quickly get sick of 7 miles per day every day. But I have no problem maintaining my interest with things like 4-8-6-0-10-6-16 with a little mid-week intensity or hills for added flavor.)


----
Michael
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I actually don't think running huge mileage is as important as running frequently and quality. I got a lot faster on about 25-30 miles/week.

It's really not worth it if you're just doing one crazy long run.

kelly dunleavy o'mara
@kellydomara
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [Experior] [ In reply to ]
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Variety is good. I certainly run weeks like you outline. But I also think that a week of straight 7's also has value and should be incorporated in the context of a training cycle. For example, if one week has a long run, well, you're likely only able to squeeze in one or two speed sessions when you factor in the time needed to recover as well as the fact you don't want to run hard the day before a long run. However, in a week of straight 7's, you can probably squeeze in three quality workouts. If your weekly volume is above 45 the value of a long run (excepting for IM or marathon) is important but doesn't need to be weekly. I think people should alternate weeks with long-runs followed by weeks of comparable mileage but without the concentration of the long run. The weekly long run is so sacrosanct in people's perception of the proper training schedule that my 7x7.15 seems radical!
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [Experior] [ In reply to ]
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Also, if you're varying intensity, you can have such big swings in the amount of time running, that even 7x7.15 can seem 7 very different workouts to keep things interesting! ;)
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't think triathletes should run 6-7 days/week. I don't even think runners should run 7 days/week except at the elite level.

I've very interested in why you think this way. Why shouldn't triathletes run that often? And why only elite runners?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%. The occasional 7x7 or some such is itself variety, and I could be into it for a while. And I agree that the 7s don't have to all be the same. Still, month in and month out? No thanks.


----
Michael
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't think people should run the same distance every day. But I do believe a lot of people rely on the long run to get their mileage up and I believe their long runs constitute too high a proportion of their total weekly mileage. As i said in a subsequent post, the long run shouldn't really be more than 25% of your weekly volume. I think most people should be aiming for greater consistency. Most people on this board would do themselves well by getting to the point that they can run 7-8 miles every day.

Also, better way to vary workouts rather than mileage would be incorporate changes in intensity and terrain.

If I hadn't read Barry's excellent posts on this subject I would not really understand this or be open to agreement. ALL the major plans have huge mileage (in comparison to the 1:2:3) on the weekends and you just get to believe that that is the norm, standard and what you should shoot for. What you've said here (and in other posts) is solid information and very much appreciated.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, all the plans have big mileage on the weekends, because they are designed for a discrete duration leading up to an event (typically 12-24 weeks). Those plans are designed under the assumption that people start the program with a strong base of day-in and day-out running. I think a lot of people will "train to train." They look at the Daniels or Pfitzinger programs which have 15 mile long runs in week one and think to themselves, "gee, i better incorporate a weekly long run of 15 miles if I'm going to do that program." Of course, you need some long runs to take that on, but if you slowly build up to being able to run 7-8 miles every day, then running 15 miles actually isn't that hard. People ignore that daily runs are the foundation upon which long-runs are built. Also, if you start with a base of running every day 7-8 miles, once you start adding a long run, you can't help but run high volume. If you go 6x7, you're at 42 miles, add a 12-20 miler, and all of a sudden you're at 54-62. And then it becomes really easy to layer in a mid-week middle distance run of 12-14 to get you at or even above 70 miles.

I used to be a 3/4 day a week runner with lots of cross training. I got decent results, including a sub-3hr marathon. I had plateaued, though, but when I started to follow the BarryP plan of running every day, I was able to ramp my mileage considerably. I went from one of those peak at 40mpw, including a 20 miler, to a peak at 68 miles. The result was going from a 2:58 marathon PR to a 2:50 last week. I hope to break 2:50 next year.

I can now run 7-8 miles every day without a problem. I rarely take days off from running now; I went 48 days straight during my marathon build. While in retrospect that was probably not the smartest thing, and I should have had at a couple off days in there, I think that's preferable to the normal 10 days that a lot of people would have built in. Having gone through a 4 month cycle of >50 mpw, my plan is to incorporate more speed work for next year, but it will still be a relatively low percent of my overall volume.

Listen to what BarryP has to say about running. JoeO and Dave Roche also have great insights.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The weekly long run is so sacrosanct in people's perception of the proper training schedule that my 7x7.15 seems radical!

well, the idea that running distances are accurate to the hundredth of a mile is pretty radical, in my book. but i know that's not your main point, and that "50" doesn't really mean much, especially for those metric folks.

for me, the 7x7.15 (or x7, or x7.5, or x8) just isn't that appealing. I'll echo what earlier posters said: i'm in this for fun, and variety adds to that.
for many people, having at least one day with no running is helpful.

as for the percentage of your weekly mileage that your long run should take up: I agree that it should be less than 50%, and probably less than 40%. But for triathletes, I think that hitting 25% would be pretty tough. I think that a week with 45-50 miles running, a 15-18 mile long run, and 50-100 miles biking is really quite well balanced.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I hear some people talk about running 50+ miles per week and would love to work my mileage up to something close to that, maybe 40 - 45. What do your weekly runs look like? I imagine your running much faster than me but how many miles per workout and what type of run are they?


If base building:

M - 5.5
T - 11
W - 5.5
R - 11
F - 5.5
S - 16-17
S - 0

If in season, T and W will be workouts of some sort.


Quote:

What mileage did you see signinficant gains?


The bigger gains come at the lower milage. For example, 0 miles a week has me running a 5K in 30 minutes. 10 miles a week will get me to a 20 minute 5K. 20 miles a week will get me to about 19:00. I tell people that the minimum for an AG athlete is is somewhat serious is about 5 hours of running a week. For someone who is serious about being competetive, go to Kona, etc. that number becomes 6-7 hours a week. Caution - this does not mean that one should bump up their milage today. All milage should be gradualy worked toward.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I don't think triathletes should run 6-7 days/week. I don't even think runners should run 7 days/week except at the elite level.

I've very interested in why you think this way. Why shouldn't triathletes run that often? And why only elite runners?

I think prescribing 7 runs in 7 days is saying one of two things: either there are circumstances where no rest day is optimal over a 7 day period or that a run is the optimal way to recover from previos run training. I don't believe the former at all and think the latter case is rare outside of elites. Moving to triathletes, and I'm assuming amateur athletes here with limited training time, you have to assess the marginal benefit of those sixth and seventh runs in the context of also cycling, swimming, and recovering. I think it would be exceedingly rare to find a case where the marginal benefit of the 7th run is higher than the other options. Even the sixth run is suspect in my mind as I think in most instances a triathlete would be better off using that training time on cycling or swimming, both of which are easier to recover from.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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It's amazing to me how rarely people do a 50 mile week like this:

Mon: 7.15
Tues: 7.15
Wed: 7.15
Thur: 7.15
Fri: 7.15
Sat: 7.15
Sun: 7.15


I have a friend who is basically a non-runner 1/2 the year. Every other month he runs 12 miles a day (6 miles twice a day...same route). He does this 6 days a week. I don't understand his motivation. He is not particularly fast. He doesn't race. This is just what he does 6 months a year. The other 6 months a year he does power weight lifting and martial arts.

Bernie

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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kevinc,

I suppose I can chime in a little. I am not an elite runner, by any stretch. I'm not particularly fast. For years I have been pretty consistent at getting in 35 miles a week, running 5 days a week.

This summer, I trained to run a 50 mile race. I had to bump up my mileage to do this. My long runs got a little longer, but the most significant change was that I ran 13 of every 14 days instead of 10 days. Also, I followed up my long runs with longer mid-distance runs (for example if I did a 25 mile run, the next day I would run a 12 mile run).

In July I was averaging 50-55 mile weeks. In August I was averaging 60-65 mile weeks. Once you are able to run more days, it is easy to bump your mileage with modest increases every day.

Another interesting thing that happened is my recovery was amazing by the end of the summer.

I don't know if this is much help for you, and my experience is only my own. I don't often post on this forum because I know there are people who know WAY more than I do about running and biking and exercise physiology. It just sounds like you are kind of where I was 6 months ago.

Bernie

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the process of building up this fall/winter, but my plan for 50 mi/wk WILL BE as follows:

M - 10 mi
Tu - 5 mi (after 40 min on CT)
W - 10 mi
Th - 5 mi (after 40 min on CT)
F - 5 mi
Sa - 15 mi
Su - off

ALL easy paced miles (~135 ave HR, or ~8:40 mm). Thanks to BarryP and others for encouraging run frequency which makes a big difference.. and is much easier on the legs, at least for me.

I hope to get to 50 in a couple of months. I'm currently at about 7/3.5/7/3.5/3.5/10.5/0 for 35 mi/wk.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
either there are circumstances where no rest day is optimal over a 7 day period or that a run is the optimal way to recover from previos run training......Even the sixth run is suspect in my mind as I think in most instances a triathlete would be better off using that training time on cycling or swimming, both of which are easier to recover from.

I've yet to hear a triathlete say something like "I ran too fast in that last race, should have run :90 slower, that would have been better". Mainly what I hear is I don't understand why I ran x-xx minutes slower then I thought I should. That is where those extra runs come into value. It's not about one week or two but an extended period of time of running those extra runs.

The two places where triathletes lose the biggest amounts of time to the leaders in their categories are the swim (which is a topic for another thread) and the run. It's not uncommon for someone to lose 3-5 min in the bike and 30-45 min in the run.

The biggest bullshit lie in triathlon is ride smarter to run faster. If you don't have the run fitness to run fast, it doesn't matter how smart you ride, you still are not going to run fast. Having better run fitness is what allows you to have a greater margin of error on the bike and still run well.

If you are having recovery issues, even with running 6-7 days per week as a triathlete, you have bigger training plan design issues that need to be addressed.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Eric, I wanted to address a few of your points because I think they represent a common but understandable misconceotion among a lot of triathletes.

******
Weekly mileage is less correlated to your AT that most people guess.
******

What we know is that if you want to run fast in a distance event, you need lots of milage and, depending on the event, moderate amounts of threshold work and a little bit of interval and speed training.

The only place where this is not true is in the heads of people who don't think it is. You won't find a successful distance program in the world where this is not the case. If it is possible to succeed otherwise, no one has figured out a way to show it.

********
I think prescribing 7 runs in 7 days is saying one of two things: either there are circumstances where no rest day is optimal over a 7 day period or that a run is the optimal way to recover from previos run training.
********

Why do you a 48 hour period to rest? Elites don't run 7 times a week. They run TWELVE times a week!

What Desert Dude and I try to get across to people is that the trade off is not between doing 3 8 mile runs or doing 7 8 mile runs. If 8 miles is tough enough to require a rest day the next day, then there is no way you can just double the amount of runs that you do.

The idea is to trade your 8 mile runs for 7 runs that average 3 1/2 miles. Think about it. If you can run 8 miles and instead you only ran 3 1/2, you will probably be pretty well rested by the next day.

There is a point in running where you push the body beyond the point where it just takes too long to repair. That is pushing it way to hard and inhibits the main contributor to stimulate improvement, which is consistent training volume.

I don't wish to read too much into what you wrote....maybe you think 5 days a week is ideal for triathletes, which isn't unreasonable, but I have run into so many who think that you should only run 3-4 times a week. Not only will you not find a college or pro program in the world that does that, you can't even find a mediocre high school team that runs that seldom. Running is simply an activity that you can do every day, and you need to do it at least 20-30 times a month if you want to come close to your potential.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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 I don't understand why I ran x-xx minutes slower then I thought I should at Silverman. Do you think it is because I just run one hour, six days a week most of the time?

Chad
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I don't think triathletes should run 6-7 days/week. I don't even think runners should run 7 days/week except at the elite level.

I've very interested in why you think this way. Why shouldn't triathletes run that often? And why only elite runners?

5 runs, 4 bikes, and 3 swims tends to work pretty well at 12 workouts a week. ive tried reducing the swim frequency down to 2 but didnt feel like it was enough even from a swimming background.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Not that I don't believe everything I read on slowtwitch, but I've decided to train similar to the program in "Run Less Run Faster" as my program for the NYC half marathon next March, in which I plan to run somewhere in the range of 1:17 to 1:20. You mentioned in your original post that no one has shown improvement with anything other than consistent training volume, but these guys actually have, so I guess I disagree with you on your point. Admittedly, they are not coaching elites, but they are coaching people to run low 3 hour marathons, which is faster than most triathletes can run, and doing so in a manner that is consistent with actually having a life besides triathlon.

The reason I became interesting in this program is because this was my first year in triathlon and I was able to improve my running fairly significantly while decreasing both my volume and frequency, which was an unexpected surprise. Of course I was adding cycling and swimming at the same time I was reducing run volume/frequency. So I am running an n=1 experiment to see what happens when I try something radically different. I guess if it goes poorly then I'll go back to running more often (though I'm still not going to run 7 days/week).

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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I did the run FIRST "run less" plan 2 summers ago. I liked part of it but ended up injured because i don't think I had a proper base for the speed work and I worked the plan backward. I didn't run the paces based on my current speed. I ran the paces based on my goal speed(time). Way too much speed for me. That is part of the reason for building to 45+mpw now. Good luck.

KC
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I did the run FIRST "run less" plan 2 summers ago. I liked part of it but ended up injured because i don't think I had a proper base for the speed work and I worked the plan backward. I didn't run the paces based on my current speed. I ran the paces based on my goal speed(time). Way too much speed for me. That is part of the reason for building to 45+mpw now. Good luck.

KC

That's too bad. I'm guessing that is common to do with respect to the pacing. I'm planning some extra 5k races so I can raise my training paces if they go well.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not saying it works for everyone, but it is certainly possible to run only 3 days a week and put together some very nice runs off the bike. Intensity is the key, though, if you are going to run 3 days a week. I had a top 15 run time (including pro's) in my only IM 70.3 race this season and I ran 3 days a week for the entire season with the occasional brick workout that added a 10-30 minute run. Tuesday-intervals (10 miles), Thursday-tempo work (10 miles), Sunday-long run (13-18 miles).
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [mcnocera] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guessing that at some point in your life you ran more than 3 days/week.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I hear some people talk about running 50+ miles per week and would love to work my mileage up to something close to that, maybe 40 - 45. What do your weekly runs look like? I imagine your running much faster than me but how many miles per workout and what type of run are they?

What mileage did you see signinficant gains?

KC


although 10 yrs ago i would avg 50 as a runner...last 6 yrs i avged 34 as a triathlete and have slowed down a bit although i mantain a weekly mid long run and 3 other med runs...ramped up to 50 a few weeks ago and have hit some 6yr pr s but now im injured slightly..prob ramped up too fast..50yo male..seattle marathon 2010 3.06min here i come
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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I did, and I do not discount that base from partly contributing to my performance. That being said, I hadn't run a step in almost 3 years until this year (my first year as a triathlete) and I was basically at square one with my running fitness. If your run is very week and something you feel you need to put more time into, then definitely go ahead and throw in a couple more short easy runs per week; but, I believe that even if you are only running 3 days/week you can still improve significantly maintaining that frequency and adding intensity to the weekday runs and volume to the weekend runs as your fitness progresses. This is just my 2 cents as a former avid runner turned triathlete. If you've got the time and energy to run 5 or 6 days instead of 3 and still maintain your biking and swimming, then by all means, go for it...it certainly cannot hurt.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to know how many bike/swim miles you 50+/week guys are getting in. How many hours a week are you training total? Some of these run totals seem excessive, unless you are training 25+ hours/week (which maybe you are; thats why I'm curious).

Most interesting to me though, is what % of your overall tri training is coming in the form of running?

---------------------------------------------------------------
http://cyclussports.com/ - #ZeroPositive #CyclusSports
http://app.strava.com/athletes/355549
https://twitter.com/ryanAjoyce
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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The only place where I find triathletes who are discussing daily running is here on slowtwitch. Among the big group of triathletes I know, nobody consistently runs more then 4 days a week. According to the slowtwitch consensus, the european athletes do not know what they are doing. Just a bunch of genetically gifted athletes who do not need to train properly.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Not that I don't believe everything I read on slowtwitch, but I've decided to train similar to the program in "Run Less Run Faster" as my program for the NYC half marathon next March, in which I plan to run somewhere in the range of 1:17 to 1:20. You mentioned in your original post that no one has shown improvement with anything other than consistent training volume, but these guys actually have, so I guess I disagree with you on your point. Admittedly, they are not coaching elites, but they are coaching people to run low 3 hour marathons, which is faster than most triathletes can run, and doing so in a manner that is consistent with actually having a life besides triathlon.



I don't think I said no one has shown improvement. I said that you won't find a successful program that runs just a few days a week. By successful, I mean a high school cross country team or college cross country team that is finishing in the upper third of their conference, or a club team or elite program that has their runners beating out the competition.

When you factor out all other variables and compare apples to apples, the guys running 6-12 times a week are going to beat the guys running 3 times a week every single time.

Quote:
....... but these guys actually have,


improvement compared to what? Were they couch potatos? Were they over training? Were they not doing any threshold training? Did everyone improve, or just a small portion and they used them as examples of people who improved?

Quote:

.....but they are coaching people to run low 3 hour marathons, which is faster than most triathletes can run......


That's irrelevant. What someone else can do on one program has nothing to do with what you can do on any program. If it was relevant, then why not follow the program of the guys running 2:10? I mean think about it, that's 30% faster!


Quote:
.....and doing so in a manner that is consistent with actually having a life besides triathlon.



And THAT is a completely different subject. I'll warn you that I've been in email wars over this in the past on this subject and I'm not very good and letting things drop. Many, many times Desert Dude and I have debated people who argue that, in this case, you don't need to run often to get fast or that weights are good for getting faster in a tri, and then they say something like, "well I want to be strong and look good at the beach"......okay, but getting strong and looking good is not getting fast, or "I want to have a life outside of triathlon".....again, having a life is not the same as getting fast.

If you want to run fast relative to *your* potential, you need to run 5+ times a week. If your life is so busy that you can't squeeze in an extra 2 15-30 minute runs a week, or you need to spend that extra time in the pool or bike because those events are weak, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but you *will* run slower if you aven't already established a solid base at some point in your life.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to: Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] by big slow mover Post: The only place where I find triathletes who are discussing daily running is here on slowtwitch. Among the big group of triathletes I know, nobody consistently runs more then 4 days a week. According to the slowtwitch consensus, the european athletes do not know what they are doing. Just a bunch of genetically gifted athletes who do not need to train properly.

I dunno, when I've read Brownlee's training weeks he seems to be running at least seven times a week...
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Listen to what BarryP has to say about running. JoeO and Dave Roche also have great insights.

This is incredibly flattering, and I think everything BarryP says is spot on. The only thing I would add is an emphasis on form during every single run, along with some barefoot running.

Finishing 2-3 runs a week with 20 minutes in socks on a grass field has done wonders for my strength. Also, count footfalls per minute occasionally, and aim for at least 90. It feels strange (especially if you're not used to forefoot striking), but is the number one way to free speed.

Granted, this advice is coming from a guy who once home-brewed meade and almost went blind, so take it for what it's worth :)

------
David Roche
"The Happy Runner" book: https://www.amazon.com/...Longer/dp/1492567647
Coaching: https://swaprunning.com/
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [mcnocera] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

I did, and I do not discount that base from partly contributing to my performance.



That is *crucial.*

I used to run with Greg Watson and he only ran a few days a week and was able to win world's in the duathlon. All of his runs had some degree of intenisty in them. What's important to remember, though, is that Greg ran for Virginia Tech when they were national cross country champions (or around that era). He was undoubtedly putting in 60-85 miles a week. It took him 8 years to build up to that.

As a duathlete running a few days a week he was able to maintain a lot of that fitness, but he was still *slower* than he was in college. See? As I said before, when comparing apples to apples, the 70 mile 7 days/week guy is faster than the 35 mile 3 days/week guy, and that 3 days/week world champ didn't get there without paying some serious 70 mile/week dues.

And FWIW, I once ran a 17:50 5K off of 2 weeks of running. Does anyone here seriously think that that is a good training plan?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [kevinc] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I hear some people talk about running 50+ miles per week and would love to work my mileage up to something close to that, maybe 40 - 45. What do your weekly runs look like? I imagine your running much faster than me but how many miles per workout and what type of run are they?

What mileage did you see signinficant gains?

KC


I'm not sure your question is optimal. If you want to get to 40+ mpw but your limiter is fragile legs then it's best if you do 7 miles 6 days per week at a slow pace. There would be NO intensity until your legs have adapted and are no longer fragile at that distance.

However, if time is your limiter, then something like this may be optimal:
4, 8, 4, 7, 8, 12 (weekend with more time)

And depending on how the swim/cycle workouts shake out and how sturdy your legs are and how much recovery capacity you have, some of those 4 mile days can include speedwork. One of those 8 mile days, or 4-5 miles of your 12 mile day could be tempo.

What is your perceived limiter? What are you really after?
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [DaveRoche] [ In reply to ]
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Completely agree with the form point. It was something that struck me while watching the NYC marathon this weekend. If you look at the elite marathoners, their form isn't that different from what you see with elite 10K runners (most obvious, is how their foot almost touches their butt). They're running! No shuffling through it for them.

Of course, mere mortals AGers will never be able to run with that kind of follow through in long course race because elites run at much higher percent of threshold, but it's something that we need to be aware. While it's easy to allow form to break down at the end of a long race (open marathon, 1/2 IM, IM, etc), I suspect it's less efficient and compounds the slowdown people experience in the final miles (I'd even suggest the deterioration in form becomes a multiplier of the deceleration related to fatigue).

I highlighted you and others because you've always given good insights and take questions seriously. Thanks to guys like you, last week at the Marine Corps Marathon, I took 8 mins off my marathon PR to 2:50. I went from 114th at the 13.1 mark to 78th at at the finish line and was crushing dreams all the way! ;)
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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I've always said the euros can run. But then again I've been bumped down the results podium b/c of their ability to run well.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [aidanlynch] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'd like to know how many bike/swim miles you 50+/week guys are getting in. How many hours a week are you training total? Some of these run totals seem excessive, unless you are training 25+ hours/week (which maybe you are; thats why I'm curious).

Most interesting to me though, is what % of your overall tri training is coming in the form of running?

My peak years where I was running that much, I ran 6-7x per week over 6 days, rode 4 days per week, swam 3-4 days per week. Avg training time per week was about 15-16 hours and I had 2 days where I only did 1 workout.

A couple of years ago (during nov->Feb) where I avg 54mpw per week for that time, I was running 7-8x over 6 days, riding 2x on trainer doing intervals, swimming 2x per week. avg training time was about 11 hours per week.

During the peak of the racing season (april through late Oct) from 2006-2008 I was put in ~40-45 miles per week running, rode about 175 and swam 11,000 yards.
During racing season 2006-2008, training time was never more then 20 hours except maybe 6 weeks total during those three years, but was consistent @ 15-16 hours every week.

I'm fortunate in that I had two excellent coaches (Paulo Sousa and myself) during that time who knew what they were doing although both had slightly different takes on the daily work in those schedules and how things were set up

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Nov 9, 10 8:07
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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I never said nobody runs every day. It would not surprise me more ITU guys run every day.

I do think that for triathlon (at least for the non talented runners and all age groupers) it is much more important what you can do with 2 or 3 run days a week (with 1 or 2 more easy jogs). And then make the 2 or 3 days count with respect to volume and intensity.

Off course you don't win a run championships with a triathlon run plan. And neither would most triathletes have a shot at winning a run race if they would focus on it.

Same goes for the other disciplines. If I go to my brother (a cyclist) with my bike plan he starts laughing too. Less then 6 training days and 15 hours a week on the bike is not bike training for him. Real cycling starts at 20 hours a week. You think you can close to your cycling potential with less then 20 hours a week? I don't.

If you take a look in the real world of triathlon, you will see that there are not many athletes (not a single one I know) who can consistently run 6 days/week with a decent training load on 3 of those days.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [aidanlynch] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'd like to know how many bike/swim miles you 50+/week guys are getting in. How many hours a week are you training total? Some of these run totals seem excessive, unless you are training 25+ hours/week (which maybe you are; thats why I'm curious).

Most interesting to me though, is what % of your overall tri training is coming in the form of running?

over the past few years, i've become more and more of a runner and less and less of a triathlete. In the summer I bike around 100 miles a week. The rest of the year, I bike around 50-75 miles a week, weather permitting.

Every once in a while, I'll swim.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's amazing to me how rarely people do a 50 mile week like this:

Mon: 7.15
Tues: 7.15
Wed: 7.15
Thur: 7.15
Fri: 7.15
Sat: 7.15
Sun: 7.15

Everyone "cheats" with a long run. Sure, long runs are important, especially for marathon and long course tri. But you can get REALLY fast just running a decent amount EVERY day. If we were talking about 1/2 marathon (open or in a 1/2 IM), I'd rather take the guy with this schedule who maybe throws in 3 long runs of say 10-12 miles (which would be a breeze off this base) than the guy who mostly runs 5 miles, but uses a weekly long run to jack up his mileage.


I mentioned doing something very similar way back toward the beginning of this thread. While I don't run the same exact mileage every day, I keep it within a close range. A 50 mile week is 7 runs of 6-8 miles. I started doing this back in late 2007 trying to run 45+ per week. Since then I've gradually built to where I'm currently running 70+ MPW. Essentially daily runs of 8-12 miles.

During this time I have broken every PR from 2 miles to the marathon, many of them numerous times - and I'm still getting faster. I have gone from a MOP runner, to regularly placing in the top 3 in my AG in most local running events.

Is running similar mileage every day boring? Not at all. I rarely run the same route two days in a row. Some runs are fast, some easy, some hilly, some flat, some roads, some trails, etc. Some days I'll split the mileage between two runs and do a shorter hard run early and a longer easy run later. If I do something like a 5K race on a Saturday morning, I'll usually follow that with a 7-9 mile run later in the day.

Unless I'm specifically training for a longer race like a half or full marathon, I haven't seen any real benefit in doing runs of longer than 14 miles on a regular basis. I have run as much as just over 100 MPW while never having a single run longer than 12 miles. Shortly after that week I had solid PRs 3 weeks in a row in a 20K, 10 miler and 5K. I placed in both of the longer races, but not the 5K as there are local guys in the 50-54 AG still running sub 18 and I'm not that fast - yet.

What you seem to be saying -and I agree - is not much attention or importance is placed on getting in a solid block of consistently running 50+ MPW prior to transitioning to a race training program.

I also agree with Barry in that while people can run decently off these programs of 3 days/week, they will not be running at their full potential. If running only 3 days/week was really that great, all the top runners would be doing it - and as far as I know none of them do it.

My comments are based from the perspective of being primarily a runner. I will end up running around 3000 miles this year, but have done no swimming and very little biking. Last year I did 8 multisport races and only ran just over 2000 miles. I have gravitated in this direction because we have a running race locally almost every week all year while we only have a couple local triathlons.

YMMV.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [slowbern] [ In reply to ]
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My experience as well. I used to get tight calves after runs, even easy ones, when I was on the 3/4 day-a-week plan. I think when you run every day, your body is forced to adapt to running everyday. One of those adaptations is faster recovery in addition to less deterioration (from a practical standpoint, there isn't a difference).

When you're in the 3-4 day a week program, you go out and run 6 miles, and your body says, "That hurt, good thing I have a couple days to recover!" When you run every day, your body says, "Okay, I better get ready quickly, because this SOB is going to put me through another 7 miles in less than 24 hours."

Think about the distribution of stress on your body from runs this way. If you run 4x a week at 7 miles each, each run is 25% of your volume. If you run 7x7, then each run is less than 15% of your volume. In a way, assuming a proper build up, you get 75% more total volume but the individual doses can be viewed as less.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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I think when you run every day, your body is forced to adapt to running everyday.

I think there is something about this. Nutrition is key too.

In July, I still was doing some up-tempo (for me) runs. I would go out and run an 8-10 mile run every week that included tempo work. I also raced a 1/2 marathon and a 10K in July. As soon as I bumped my mileage up to 60+ in August, the recovery was a lot harder. So much so that I reduced the intensity of those runs so that I could recover better.

When all was said and done, I ran 790 miles in June-September (including the 50 miler). I committed to doing the race in June, but I had been running fairly consistently through the year (about 120-130 miles a month) up until that point. I felt good all summer. I got through the race without any injury. And I really think that I am as running fit as I have ever been. I'm doing a 50K coming up in December and looking forward to it.

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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And FWIW, I once ran a 17:50 5K off of 2 weeks of running. Does anyone here seriously think that that is a good training plan?

I ran a 17:50 5k this year.... And I attribute this to BarryP's help and articles... last year I could not go under 20mins, and I increased my runs per week and mileage gradually over the winter and looked what happened... I am a 100% believer in frequency now... Listen to these guys, they know what there talking aboot...

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
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I hear some people talk about running 50+ miles per week and would love to work my mileage up to something close to that, maybe 40 - 45. What do your weekly runs look like? I imagine your running much faster than me but how many miles per workout and what type of run are they?


If base building:

M - 5.5
T - 11
W - 5.5
R - 11
F - 5.5
S - 16-17
S - 0

If in season, T and W will be workouts of some sort.


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What mileage did you see signinficant gains?


The bigger gains come at the lower milage. For example, 0 miles a week has me running a 5K in 30 minutes. 10 miles a week will get me to a 20 minute 5K. 20 miles a week will get me to about 19:00. I tell people that the minimum for an AG athlete is is somewhat serious is about 5 hours of running a week. For someone who is serious about being competetive, go to Kona, etc. that number becomes 6-7 hours a week. Caution - this does not mean that one should bump up their milage today. All milage should be gradualy worked toward.

I know this is a post from a LONG time ago but still very relevant

What about weekly mileage for someone who only does sprint distance?
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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How much time do you have and how good do you want to be?
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
How much time do you have and how good do you want to be?

I have 167 hours a week and want to be top 3 at local sprint races
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to be the best you can be then you will have to train to be your best. Your weekly distance will be an amount that stimulates you to be better, that's different for everyone.

If you have been running, lets say 30 miles per week and you're not getting faster or being able to run fast longer then a different stimulus may be in order. That could be more running, faster running or both.

It could also be an amount that's lower than you do now if you are unable to to repeat your weekly workouts or are not improving.

I would build up to your 4 week sustainable run mileage from last season over 5 to 10 weeks and then run up to 25% more for another 5 weeks and see how you do. If you can run more then bump up another 10% for another 5 to 10 weeks. That's to 25 weeks of running and should get you through the winter.


With all that said, I'll be running up to 55 miles per week this winter to be ready for a half in the spring and then a bunch of sprints in the summer. When February comes around I'll have to back off to just under 40 since I know I'm unable to consistently run that volume and ride as well.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Once.. i ran nearly every day.. trying to get the mileage in and managed to get close to 150-200km/month and then i got injured cos I believe my body wasn't able to take it despite me actually just running moderately slow. So now, after 2 years, the achilles is still not completely better and i'm more cautious (scared actually) of restarting running.

I've picked up Trail running tho - supposedly less impactful. Supposed.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [ In reply to ]
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If you are someone who currently runs 4 days per week. Miles of 3-4-3 than 6-8 on the weekends, how would you build to running 6-7 days per week without injury? Cut the 6-8 mile run to 4 and add in 1 extra day per week until running 7 days?
Last edited by: sdrthedj: Oct 17, 18 8:17
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [myjunk] [ In reply to ]
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The people I work with, I have them run for 30 min every other day for 5 weeks then move them to four 30 min runs per week for 5 weeks. If they are doing OK there I'll move them to 4-5 30 min runs for the next 5 weeks. After that I increase the time of two of the runs depending on how they are doing.

It's not an overnight process for everyone to be able to run 6-7 days a week. Some can not do it, some can do it in one cycle.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [sdrthedj] [ In reply to ]
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sdrthedj wrote:
If you are someone who currently runs 4 days per week. Miles of 3-4-3 than 6-8 on the weekends, how would you build to running 6-7 days per week without injury? Cut the 6-8 mile run to 4 and add in 1 extra day per week until running 7 days?

That’s 16-18 miles per week. Just spread that out over 6-7 days then start adding a litttle bit to each run every week or two.

BarryP style that would be three runs of 1.75 miles, two runs of 3.5 miles and one run of 5.25 for a weekly total of 17.5 miles.

Then the next week at .25 miles to the short runs. .5 miles to the medium runs and .75 miles to the long run.

Rinse and repeat.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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RBR:

You need up to 7 hours of training a week total. For the run leg, 2-3 hours would be good. Get a base of steady runs in the 2-4 mile range, 4-5 days a week. Develop your sprint endurance run legs. Either year round or 3-4 months before building into the tri season. During the build weeks, keep the mileage and increase speed blocks. Use either Fartlek or intervals. Whatever you like more. During taper days into race day, add in some 150 Meter pick-ups for raw foot speed. Your swimming should build some arm strength that will allow you to pump your run arms for speed without endurance impairment. Be sure to run some strides up and down hills during build training. These will build your muscles and other soft tissue to minimize stress during runs. Also, trains the bone structure.

Know how to race too. That includes pacing, how to react to competitors, stay relaxed, and more. Minimize the weight on the bike. You don't need much in fluids during the race. It's a sprint. If you train an hour a day, your body will be trained for that experience.

Focus on transitions. If you spend 60 seconds longer between T1 & T2 than others, then realize you are giving up a 20 second/mile advantage to your competitors. That's a lot! Start and end with bike shoes in the pedal. Know how and peel your wetsuit to the waist when running out of the water. Take off your cap and goggles by the time you reach your bike. Put on your helmet, glasses, and run thru transition. You don't need socks. You don't needs a gel, or gloves, or anything else you didn't start the swim with a few minutes earlier. Know your exit and entry points and by all means, know where you bike is located and where to return.

Once you get your base in the swim, bike, and run; then speed focus will be your friend on race day to get you on the podium.

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Re: 50+ miles running per week [sdrthedj] [ In reply to ]
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sdrthedj wrote:
If you are someone who currently runs 4 days per week. Miles of 3-4-3 than 6-8 on the weekends, how would you build to running 6-7 days per week without injury?


I answered that here and explain what to do after you've adapted to that here

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for your responses. I will add two small runs and work my up.
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [sdrthedj] [ In reply to ]
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I'll add my n=1 as a FOPish triathlon runner (whose running days, are sadly numbered by worsening arthritis despite only being M40-45...)

I was a marathon runner before triathlon, so I put in a few cycles of 70+mpw Pfitz-style. The first time I did that it was hard as all getout, but for sure, going from averaging 35mpw to 70mpw (and luckily not getting injured) dramatically and apparently permanently improved my running. I had been plateaud in the 5k from my high school <30mpw PR of 20:50 for 15 years, but then after 1 cycle of the 70mpw Pfitz marathon plan, dropped a low-18 5k, which was a total shocker to me when i did it, as I really felt that I was scraping for seconds gained at 30mpw for the entire prior decade.

In my 10 years as a triathlete, I've experimented with run mileage from as low as 15-18mpw to 35-40ish per week (which I felt like was a lot if you're biking and swimming similiar/more amounts). Note that I was not run-focused at this time, so lots of time bike/swimming, too. I actually get better results in sprint-Oly with the lower mileage range, like in the 18-25 mpw range than I did from the 35-40mpw range. I suspect it's because the quality of the miles as a whole goes up, more emphasis on VO2max fast stuff, and as well the lower run mileage => better bike quality training.

I do think you need a good running base though to benefit from this .If you're the typical new AG triathlete who has never run more than 25mpw on average for several months, you're leaving a LOT on the table runwise. However, if you've got the run base like I did, lower miles don't necessarily mean worse run results.

Ironically, I took 5 months off from triathlon to train specifically for a marathon. Zero biking, zero swimming. Ran 70mpw on avg, which was probably too hard for me in retrospect. I bombed the race day (overtrained/sick) but set PRs in 10k & HM in the buildup.

The interesting part - once I got back to triathlo, my biking in particular was lagging in the start, and as a result, I ran one of my slowest Oly run splits, ever. It wasn't because I couldn't run a decent 10k - it was absolutely because I was underprepared for the bike, and I really felt it on race day. Won't let that happen again!
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Re: 50+ miles running per week [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Then I was an over-achiever today! I managed to squeeze in 4.08 miles. (.08 was to get to a bridge to stretch after.)
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