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AG drug testing: so, what changes?
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so far, our poll indicates strong support for AG drug testing for those who qualify for Kona and clearwater. as of this writing, we're oscillating between 80% and 85% support.

but, only 35% to 40% believe it's good-to-go as is. i'm intrigued that half of you like the program but only if changes occur. what changes? that the program is not strong enough? or that it needs a bit of modulating?

to recap, what we have is as follows, as far as i know:

=> qualifiers for kona and clearwater will be asked to sign a waiver, allowing for drug testing both in and out of competition, the "in-competition" being at each WC race; the OOC occurring only if the contestant is notified he/she is in the OOC pool. at that point, the athlete can opt out of the pool, but loses the WC slot. this is an easier rule than pros live with, as AGers can still race everywhere else, and as of this writing no other punishment is contemplated by IM or any other authority. so, that same athlete can still enter other IM races, just that the slot is given up for worlds.

=> the "panel" (list of banned substances) is the same as for the pros, so, if the AGer tests positive for either banned recreational or banned performance enhancing drugs, a penalty is levied. it's my understanding that the penalty would be the same as for the pros, a 2yr ban from all competition for a first offense, or whatever the appropriate ban is.

=> AGers can apply for a therapeutic use exemption (TUE), either from USADA or from a TUE adjudicating panel that WTC sets up itself. so, if you're taking a banned substance but feel you should be able to do so and still retain the right to race, you submit your TUE request to one of these agencies.

i have the following questions, and will at some point ask them and perhaps others of WTC:

1. if you're an AGer and you test positive in or out of competition, will your positive test and ban be made public?

2. if you submit your TUE request and it is denied, will it affect your right to race in any of WTC's other races or, if you submit your TUE to USADA and it's denied, will it affect your right to race in all sanctioned races? or, does a TUE denial only affect your ability to compete in the WC, but it does not affect your right to compete in any other race?

3. how long is an OOC pool stint for an AGer? 3 months? 6 months? a year? indefinite?

4. if an AGer tests positive, does he still retain the same rights to appeal? to whom does he appeal? who is the prosecuting authority in such appeals, WTC or a NADO? and is CAS the court of last resort for the athlete, and if so has CAS agreed to adjudicate these AG cases?

5. is WTC committed, and are the other partner orgs (e.g., ANADO) in agreement, that the only penalty for opting out of OOC testing is the loss of the WC slot? or is this a decision that's not yet firm?

6. if the athlete opts out of the OOC pool, will this fact become public?

what say the roughly half of you who want to tweak the program? how do you want it tweaked? how do you wish WTC will answer my questions above? what are your questions?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 15, 09 7:46
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think recreational drugs (non-performance enhancing) should be excluded from testing/sanctions especially if the results are to be made public.



Erik
Strava
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone have a copy of the waiver that the Kona qualifiers at IM-MOO had to sign? They did have a handout as well, but it was basically a list of resources for the athletes - links to the WADA code, WTC rules, and "educational resources".
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I could be completely wrong but the way I understand the program to work is that the only "in-competition" testing will be done at Kona and Clearwater. To me this creates a huge loophole for those that are doping to get away with it. Take this as an example:

1. Racer A is determined to do whatever it takes to get Kona slot.
2. Racer A takes whatever banned substances they think will improve their chances.
3. Racer A races at Im Wisconsin doped up.
4. Racer A gets a Kona slot.
5. Racer A is not subject to "in-competition" testing until nearly 13 months later at Kona.
6. Only a slim chance that Racer A will face "out-of-competition" testing in the immediate aftermath of Wisconsin.
7. Racer A shows up at Kona clean.

In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifing for the race.

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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Also will TUE's be made public? What about the paper application process? or is it private? what about if it is declined?

I have no interest in a google search of me showing what perscription drugs i take...(not to mention my other objections in the other thread)

Clyde

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [clyde_s_dale] [ In reply to ]
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"Also will TUE's be made public?"

TUEs should never become public, afaik. plenty of TUEs on file (for pros) but we don't know who/what they are. my question, like yours, is what happens if, say, you're taking testosterone under a doctor's orders, but your TUE is denied. does this affect your ability to race in any races other than kona/clearwater?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes generates an interesting question:
-if you apply for a TUE but get denied, and they then ban you from competition, that would very much suck, especially since its not clear if you would be tested anyway...
-do you then get the chance to declare you have stopped taking that drug if denied a TUE? get to apply for another TUE with more documentation?
-what grounds do they use for declining TUEs?
-will they hear TUE applications from anyone? What is the order required for getting a TUE vs getting a kona slot? What if you arent sure you will get a kona slot? i guess you still get a TUE then?

Clyde

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It would all be "for not" if the participant opts for the selection to NOT allow their medical information to be known. I have a right for instance in Illinois to not take a pre-employment drug screen. I would need to consent to the medical testing company the right for the potential employer to be granted access to the information in the given drug screen. If I opt to not take the test, or to not give access to the results to the employer - they can just not hire me. Where this gets tricky is WTC lets anyone use Active.com to enter a race and play for slots in Kona. Part of the entry if the question about medical information (I always have chosen the "no" option)...so, if someone clicks the "no" option and then has a test with out a new consent - WTC even if they paid for it would have no right to the results. Will WTC just say to us all PRIOR to entry that we must grant them access to the results of a test, and if not we either dont get to race or can not race for Kona slots? Or, if we do "win" a slot and are then chosen (at random?) to get a test and we decline the slot goes on to the next person (who may or may not get a random test?).

The mess here is going to be in the verbage and where this happens. They really need it to be part of the entry process at the qualifying event, and have consent prior to taking payment for entry into an event (or be willing to do a 100% refund and decline entry into said event, if after the fact).

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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hey dan,

seems to me the biggest discontent is the out of competition testing piece and TUEs. Personally I just don't see AG out of competition ever happening BUT if it is not written that way then every right for people to be asking questions.

to simplify they may want to simply state "elite AG will have drug testing at Kona and Clearwater as well as qualification events" and leave it at that. Or, state that AG athletes will not be held to the 'wherabouts program' and thereby by default (I assume because they can't find you) not available to out of competition testing.

From there the elite AG is in the same boat as the pros in terms of TUEs but I suspect for Canadians privacy laws capture the publication of any of that information. Last I realize it is very easy for me to minimize the out of competition stuff because I live in Canada where drug testing for work just does not happen so a positive test for say a recreational drug like pot wouldn't get anyone fired as it would in some US States.

The whole thing is a cluster ^&*%, but I will get in line and pee/bleed whenever asked so long as Sumatra coffee and wine don't get me busted-:)

@rhyspencer
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"Also will TUE's be made public?"

TUEs should never become public, afaik. plenty of TUEs on file (for pros) but we don't know who/what they are. my question, like yours, is what happens if, say, you're taking testosterone under a doctor's orders, but your TUE is denied. does this affect your ability to race in any races other than kona/clearwater?

You should be banned from any placing at any sanctioned races. If you don't deserve a TUE (as determined by the powers-that-be), you by definition are not permitted to compete for awards. Show up and race? Fine. Displace someone from awards (cash, qualifying slots, cheezy plaques, or whatever)? No. Life isn't fair to those whose testosterone levels are low. Triathlon placings aren't a right.

Question re AGers: isn't the pool of OOC participants exactly the same as those qualified for Kona/Clearwater? If it isn't, then it isn't fair. It wasn't clear from your OP.

The scenario which I posited to you and which you didn't address (dope to the gills prior to qualifying, then remain clean up to Kona/Clearwater, then repeat the process) effectively says "we don't care what you do to qualify." If you want to qualify for Kona/Clearwater 20xx, then you should sign a waiver indicating that you are willing to be in the OOC pool one year prior to the race at which you wish to qualify. Can't plan that far ahead? We can't tell if your planning is poor or your desire to dope is great, so you can't qualify.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [clyde_s_dale] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Yes generates an interesting question:
-if you apply for a TUE but get denied, and they then ban you from competition, that would very much suck, especially since its not clear if you would be tested anyway...

It would suck because the powers-that-be have determined that your use of medication gives you an unfair advantage (the basis of the denial of a TUE) that wouldn't likely have been detected had you not applied for a TUE?

Are you serious?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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But....will they ban "rear view mirrors" for elite AG ;-)

That is yet another good point...IM is an international game - some things that are not legal here (in the US) are in other countries...so, who's laws for what do we use? Are they going to have a Pharmacist put down EVERY single substance that is not allowed? Remember Palmer at a few events - high as a kite but within the rules.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Why shouldn't the AG run under the same rules as the PRO, I don't get it.
As I see it, setting up a plan just to shut up some of the voices around the lack of drug testing for AG is worst than having no drug testing.

_______________________________
The "Pocket Hercules" - jgrat

Technique sets the upper limit to where your fitness will take you...
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure there will be people on ST to analyze peoples finish times to determine who has cheated with a statistical analysis

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Two issues seem important to me.

It would be nice to know how they plan to implement the OOC testing during work hours. As it stands now it appears they want the right to show up at your work place and demand a drug test.

Second, it would be nice to know who will have access to any data you put into their tracking system about your whereabouts. What privacy, if any, gaurantees are there in place regarding this data. Will WTC have access to this data?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
But....will they ban "rear view mirrors" for elite AG ;-)

Phillipine 70.3 rules stated "no rear view mirrors"! : )

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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.

All qualifiers at these events then agree that within 2 weeks of qualification they MAY be tested. They click "accept" before they get their Kona CW slot, and immediately are asked to provide where they will be over the next 2 weeks. All you have to do is provide where you will be. 2 weeks is a reasonable window to provide your "whereabouts". If you cannot be where you say you will be and if the testers show up in the next 2 weeks, with 24 hours notice, then you lose your slot. That's all we need to get a reasonable program off the ground.

I think this will be a good starting point. I want to know that on race day, the guys that got the slots were clean. If they were doped to the gills, there is a nice chance in the next 2 weeks, they'll test positive IF tested. If a guy dopes to the gills in his build up for Kona or even at Kona, most of us don't care. By then it is too late anyway.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Recreational drugs should have no place in this.

That is none of anyone's business but Johnny Law (and arguably, not even his)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.

Dev
Agree with Dev and that WTC shouldn't be concerned with recreational drugs that aren't performance enhancing.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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AGers spend a lot of $$ trying to qualify for Kona. I would be willing to spend a little extra to catch the drug cheats.

Whether it is silly that AGers spend a lot of $$ to try to qualify for Kona, I might not argue with you, but people spend a lot of $$ on a lot of silly things in this world. :)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I think this will be a good starting point. I want to know that on race day, the guys that got the slots were clean. If they were doped to the gills, there is a nice chance in the next 2 weeks, they'll test positive IF tested. If a guy dopes to the gills in his build up for Kona or even at Kona, most of us don't care. By then it is too late anyway.

It's not a good starting point: all it will tell you is that on race day, and maybe for two weeks afterwards (who would be doping *after* the qualifying race?), there were no detectable drugs in the guy who qualified and who was tested.

I disagree with your contention that nobody (of those who care at all about AG doping) cares how doped people were in training. It's the training that sets up the race.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.
The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure there are a number of ways to justify it. In the end, unless you are a pro who might make money/endorsements off this, it's still just a silly hobby. Spending a lot of money on it just means you are spending a lot of money on your silly hobby.

But now you think it's OK to demand that every Kona qualifier be available for out-of-competition drug testing to make you feel better about spending all that money on your silly hobby.

(Please note, I definitely include myself in the group who is spending far too much money on this silly hobby)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

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X2.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.


Dev

There should always be IN COMPETETION TESTING for Kona and Clearwater. It should just be made clear from the beginning that all AG qualifiers for those races will be tested at the conclusion of the qualifiying event prior to their slot being confirmed. By doing that there is no chance for them to be doped to the gills during their build up to the qualifier.

Would this be expensive, yes. But I think it would make sense.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
I doubt the WTC will be knocking on your door unless they have some hard evidence against you...we're talking about a company that recycles sponges here.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Still they're not going to be coming to my door regardless as I am in no danger of qualifying for Kona.

I'm talking about the principle. The fact that I would have to agree to allow it.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
I've got no problem with it. I'd have no problem with them testing OA and AG podium places at ANY race that I do, whether it be WTC, USAT, whatever. If I'm going to bust my ass training to try and get a podium spot (even if it's just a local sprint), I don't want some doping fucknut jacking me out of it. I'd be even more pissed if I spent a year or more prepping and getting dicked out of a Kona slot because of it.

I'll file my TUE for the singulair and proventil inhaler that I use (legitimately for EIB, I hate having to use it, but I like being able to breathe on a regular basis), and you can show up to my work, my house, whatever, whenever.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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That's just sad.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How about the only OOC testing is if someone turns someone else in, if they test positive then the guy who turned them in gets their slot and if he isn't positive then he has to pay for the test.

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Larry Himmel] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

X3. When there is money, endorsements and carreer at stakes, as is the case for the true professional athletes, it all makes sense. None of that applies to age-group athletes. I see no rationale for the testing of age-group athletes. Have we completely lost perspective ? By world-class standard, even the best age-group athletes times are pedestrian. They are competing essentially for bragging rights. I find it sad that we are contemplating such measures to help settle bragging rights over a hobby (however serious and time-consuming that hobby may be).

Francois in Montreal
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Ken...I agree that the 12 months before the qual race is where the biggest benefits of doping lie.

However, it is pretty well impossible to know, in advance of the qual race who is going to qualify, as such, how do you pick from the 30K IM registered athletes world wide, who you will test out of competition?

The answer is you cannot. Which is why the WTC is not trying to nail the guy spending the past 12 months doped to the gills....

So you can only focus on race day and those that qualify.

Really once a guy has qualified, I could care less if he is doped to the gills in his build for Kona or Clearwater, cause that's the "party" that most age groupers are heading to. They are not competing with anyone else but themselves.

At the qualifier race, they are not competing with themselves, they are competing against the other guy. So as a starting point, let's test the other guy (and myself) on race day.

I added the 14 days post race so that the testers can catch up and perhaps test folks for stuff that would be in the system on qualifier race day. I don't know the half life on any of this stuff, but I expect for a lot of the stuff that gave buddy a boost on race day, it will be detectable in his body for a couple of weeks after.

Seriously, most of us want testing for the guys that win the kona/clearwater slots.

We don't really care that much about testing for who gets on the kona/clearwater podium....that's not what the fuss is about. I would imagine that there are a small subset like Joe Boness who DO CARE that the guy he is racing against for a Kona podium is clean but for 99% of age groupers worldwide, this is a complete non issue and these 99% of guys are the ones responding to slowman's poll.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a thought-make the OOC testing pool like the wetsuit. Do you want to go to Kona or Clearwater? Then on January 1 each year-you are required to submit your name to the OOC testing pool. If your name is not submitted, then you are not eligible to accept a qualifying slot or compete in Kona for that year.

I would think that any age grouper planning on using PED's would have a hard time doing so knowing he'd be putting their name on that list every year. There seems to be too many ways around testing the way it is being set up right now, as illustrated by concerns being raised in this and the other thread.

The train has left the station and there is no point in debating whether or not it is right, now we need to make sure it is 100% effective.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Ken...I agree that the 12 months before the qual race is where the biggest benefits of doping lie.

However, it is pretty well impossible to know, in advance of the qual race who is going to qualify, as such, how do you pick from the 30K IM registered athletes world wide, who you will test out of competition?

The answer is you cannot. Which is why the WTC is not trying to nail the guy spending the past 12 months doped to the gills....

So you can only focus on race day and those that qualify.

A guy is walking down the street one night, and spots someone, obviously drunk, on his hands an knees under a street lamp. He asks the drunk what he's doing:

Drunk: "I'm looking for my house keys"
Guy: "Where do you think you dropped them?"
Drunk: [pointing across the street] "Over there"
Guy: "Why are you looking here, then?"
Drunk: "The light's better here"

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

What JoeO said.

Seriously: if someone get's banned because they have abnormal testosterone levels naturally, they are being excluded by design. If that same person is excluded because someone cheated and beat them, at least they weren't excluded by a rule they were excluded because someone BROKE the rules.

The more rules you make, the bigger the hassle. I think the history of endurance sports has shown that even when banned (and tested for) people will take drugs. People wear fins to go faster, people cut the course to save time and both those are against the rules.

Remember the song "Signs": signs, signs, everywhere the signs... Endurance sports is becoming rules, rules, everywhere the rules.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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I like your proposal of putting in your name to the OOC pool up front...or maybe the moment you sign up, you tick the box that says, "competing for Kona slot and agree to sign up for OOC pool". Of course, you still need a fair way to ensure that Mr. Clyde is not being hauled out of the trading pit while he is in the process of a massive financial transaction that could take down Lehman brothers, (ooops, that was a year ago...), but this would be a good starting point.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
That's just sad.
Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers? It's sad that it's becoming necessary, but if they implemented it with a minimum year ban for first offense, there'd be a lot less dopers.

You think people would still litter if there were a 1 or 2 hour penalty instead of a 10 minute penalty? What's 10 minutes in the context of a 12+ hour race?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is why WTC needs a testing program!! Good article from Outside Magazine http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

Stuart Stevens had no problem getting access to HGH, EPO and Steroids from a doctor in California. The doctor had “helped” several other professional and amateur athletes. If you do not test, people will cheat. It is as simple as that.

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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers?
No because you are willing to support such an invasion of your privacy (and mine) just to be sure that my local-yokel sprint triathlon time is legit

In Reply To:
It's sad that it's becoming necessary

It isn't necessary. That's the point. Thinking that such a measure is necessary reveals, in my opinion, a complete loss of perspective.

In Reply To:

but if they implemented it with a minimum year ban for first offense, there'd be a lot less dopers.

If we simply allowed the police to kick down any age-groupers door and search their houses for EPO or other items, there would probably be a lot less dopers too.

In Reply To:
You think people would still litter if there were a 1 or 2 hour penalty instead of a 10 minute penalty? What's 10 minutes in the context of a 12+ hour race?

A time penalty in a race does not invade my privacy. I wouldn't care if you made the penalty immediate disqualification. In fact, if that were the penalty for drafting, I would support it. Because all it would affect is standings in the race. But then, they'd have to actually enforce it.
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 15, 09 11:33
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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me to man ! pass the bong

Slowtwitch bitchist place on planet earth
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers?
No because you are willing to support such an invasion of your privacy (and mine) just to be sure that my local-yokel sprint triathlon time is legit

In Reply To:
It's sad that it's becoming necessary

It isn't necessary. That's the point. Thinking that such a measure is necessary reveals, in my opinion, a complete loss of perspective.

Please. Invasion of my privacy? I can be drug tested by my employer at any time at his discretion. I accepted that when I took the job. If you know up front there is a chance you can be tested, then you have a choice. Either accept it or don't race. I was in the military. Same thing, except there they could show up and search your living space as well.

I'm not saying it's necessary for the "local yokel" triathlons, although for the bigger triathlons or Worlds qualifiers, etc., its looking like it might be. I'm saying I wouldn't care if they did implement it. In the grand scheme of things peeing in a cup every once in a while is no big deal. I think that anyone that qualifies for WC, Nationals, Team USA, any of the biggies SHOULD have immediate testing. All for it. I've been tested probably 25 times in my life, I never considered an "invasion of my privacy".

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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SO who is going to pay for this? WTC? I would say most pros still aren't tested enough, especially at the long course level of the sport.

Do you all want to chip in an extra $10-20 per entry to pay for this? Drug testing is wicked expensive, and that's just generic pee testing. The out of Competition tests are even more so, as you have to pay people to administer them.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:


Please. Invasion of my privacy? I can be drug tested by my employer at any time at his discretion. I accepted that when I took the job. If you know up front there is a chance you can be tested, then you have a choice. Either accept it or don't race. I was in the military. Same thing, except there they could show up and search your living space as well.


This isn't your job and it isn't the military. It's a hobby. If you are on drugs in the military and maybe you launch that rocket or fire off your gun and cause an international incident. If you are on drugs in you job, maybe you screw up that contract and a hundred people don't get their Christmas bonuses. If you are on drugs in Ironman Lake Placid, then maybe I don't get a Kona slot. Not even remotely in the same league, no matter how much I really really want to go there.

I realize that if they implement the rule and I sign up, I am agreeing to it. I don't dispute that. If they do implement it, I might even sign, just like all the rest of the sheep. I am simply saying that to allow something like drug testing to creep into age-group triathlons is putting an importance on the outcome that is far beyond the magnitude of the "crime". It is using a sledgehammer to swat a fly

In Reply To:

I'm not saying it's necessary for the "local yokel" triathlons,


Actually you kinda did:

"If I'm going to bust my ass training to try and get a podium spot (even if it's just a local sprint), I don't want some doping fucknut jacking me out of it"

But I accept your clarification. I just don't see that your getting "jacked out of it" as something that merits me having to pee in a cup and being tested for whatever the current administration deems "recreational drugs" or whatever else they don't like. Even more so out of competition.

In Reply To:

although for the bigger triathlons or Worlds qualifiers, etc., its looking like it might be. I'm saying I wouldn't care if they did implement it. In the grand scheme of things peeing in a cup every once in a while is no big deal. I think that anyone that qualifies for WC, Nationals, Team USA, any of the biggies SHOULD have immediate testing. All for it. I've been tested probably 25 times in my life, I never considered an "invasion of my privacy".
John



I've been tested it a couple of times and I have considered it an invasion of my privacy every time. However I realized, in those cases it clearly was necessary. In this case it is absolutely not. It does nothing but make some hobbyists feel better about themselves.

I am one of those hobbyists. If I ever miss a Kona slot by a place or two, I'll always wonder, "was it because some other guy took drugs?". But even if I am certain it was, I don't see the necessary remedy for that to force that other guy to pee in a cup while on his family vacation. Hell I don't even see the remedy as forcing him to pee into a cup while at a the race.

All anybody is "winning" here is bragging rights.
Last edited by: JoeO: Jul 25, 12 13:35
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is my understanding correct that most OTC cold and allergy medicine contain banned substances? I understand that these drugs may contain benefits and why you might want to ban professionals from taking them. But, most clients, customers and co-workers don't want you sneezing, hacking and coughing all over them. So, I don't think that those sorts of medicines should be banned for AGers. Same thing for recreation drugs where use by professionals might affects the image of the sport, but even that rather weak case doesn't apply to AGer's. As far as the rules of out of competition testing goes, I think that they could end up being applied very unfairly. Being tested is part of a professionl's job so a professional should expect to have tests from time to time. But, it's not part of an AGers' job, and their jobs might require them to be somewhere on short notice or not be able to produce a sample within a given period of time. So, IMO, it doesn't make sense for the same rules to apply to professionals and AGers.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The modifications I would like to see to the program are mainly to keep it simple and effective.

-When you accept/pay for your kona slot you submit a sample at the same time to be tested.
-No OOC testing for AG, simply too complicated to implement now
-testing only screens for the big PEDs, HGH, test, epo, amphetmines...
-No TUEs, ( I suspect the TUEs for the big PEDs are not common)
-2 year suspension from WTC events on positives
-positives are kept private and not disclosed
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CTL] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think some of you guys are getting it. The WTC is not going to spend money having random OOC tests. They are not going to be proactive, but reactive. If they get a report that Doctor X was giving out EPO, and Triathlete Y had written Doctor X a check, they'll do an OOC.

The problem is there has been more than 1 report with hard evidence of people doping in races. There are posts here about doctors offering people anything they want. There are probably more than 10 Puerto / Balco operations going on and I'm sure they're reaching out to desperate amateur athletes with deep pockets (ie triathletes trying to get to Kona).
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't think some of you guys are getting it. The WTC is not going to spend money having random OOC tests.
I can't speak for everyone, but I doubt that anyone believes that WTC will be doing any random OOC tests.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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"Either accept it or don't race."

You state it as an either/or proposition. However, there is a third option. I can exercise my rights to open my mouth and talk to someone at WTC or make a big fuss on forum message boards. I know you would prefer that I not exercise that right, because your position is so entrenched. Based on previous comments, you didn't seem to mind giving away rights by being in the military, keeping in mind that all civilians have more rights than the highest military ranking short of commander in chief. I really don't find it a moving argument that you don't consider certain things to be an invasion of your privacy, and therefore I should not consider those things to be an invasion of my privacy either, and I should either accept your viewpoint or not race. I will make my own decisions in that regard, and I will "reserve my rights", no matter how many of yours you choose to give away.

Here are my changes I referred to when I voted "yes, with changes":

1. Age groupers should be eligible for money prizes.
2. If you check the box saying you wish to compete for a money prize, you may be subject to being entered into both in and out of competition testing pools.

If there's no money involved, then if you don't podium you can just accept the fact that you're not training or doping hard enough in your "local yokel" race or your international yokel IM. No TUE required.

I know you've put your coaching shingle out so you're treating the sport seriously, but it's not serious at all for the athlete except all those hours training and then a race to see how he can execute the training in a timed race. If you're going wild over a plaque or a medal that you or your clients miss out on, you're missing the mark. There's no professional conduct policy for coaches, no certification board unless you count a few classes that USAT puts on, no organized business bureau to complain about bad coaches, and not much more than lunch money to be earned unless you're Joe Friel.

For the age group athletes, there's nothing to be gained except the satisfaction of a race well done, a token prize at the finish line, and maybe a chance to pay another $550 to go to Kona, where they still won't be competing for money. Then they get up again in 1 or 2 mornings after their small or big race and continue their day job. You do the same thing. So it's not serious at all. Why the need to make a big deal with drug testing? Is it so I can pay extra in my race fees for something I don't care about but you do? Maybe you should pay the testing fees for all athletes if you care so much.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

But now you think it's OK to demand that every Kona qualifier be available for out-of-competition drug testing to make you feel better about spending all that money on your silly hobby.

Yes, if you are willing to spend 10 to 20 hours per week for years to try to qualify for Kona, along with the $$ you are spending on the quest, you can submit to OCC drug testing. Do you think anyone is going to feel sorry for you? ;)

BTW, I'm done trying to qualify for Kona.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I want him to stay out of my...well... urine (I'll bet he wants that too!)

I certainly feel sorry for the folks who try very hard and don't make it. But the guy who feels entitled to urine/blood samples from age groupers as a result of all that? Him I feel most sorry for. That poor soul has completely lost perspective.

You know the joke about figuring out which guy at the party is the triathlete? It's the same guy.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [AZRob] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Quote:
You state it as an either/or proposition. However, there is a third option. I can exercise my rights to open my mouth and talk to someone at WTC or make a big fuss on forum message boards. I know you would prefer that I not exercise that right, because your position is so entrenched. Based on previous comments, you didn't seem to mind giving away rights by being in the military, keeping in mind that all civilians have more rights than the highest military ranking short of commander in chief. I really don't find it a moving argument that you don't consider certain things to be an invasion of your privacy, and therefore I should not consider those things to be an invasion of my privacy either, and I should either accept your viewpoint or not race. I will make my own decisions in that regard, and I will "reserve my rights", no matter how many of yours you choose to give away.

Maybe it is due to the military stuff, but I really don't see it as any big deal at all, and I find it kind of amusing that people get all het up over it. As far as "preferring", I really don't care one way or the other on that either. As you can tell, I have no problem opening my mouth :D, so I don't really care when others do either. Test, don't test, I'll race anyway.

My biggest problem with the whole doping thing is I really want to believe in the integrity of sport. (not just ours, sport as a whole). I'm also of the opinion that allowing professionals in ruined a large part of the Olympics. Drugging to win at sports i

Here are my changes I referred to when I voted "yes, with changes":

1. Age groupers should be eligible for money prizes.
2. If you check the box saying you wish to compete for a money prize, you may be subject to being entered into both in and out of competition testing pools.

If there's no money involved, then if you don't podium you can just accept the fact that you're not training or doping hard enough in your "local yokel" race or your international yokel IM. No TUE required.

Quote:
Quote:
I know you've put your coaching shingle out so you're treating the sport seriously, but it's not serious at all for the athlete except all those hours training and then a race to see how he can execute the training in a timed race. If you're going wild over a plaque or a medal that you or your clients miss out on, you're missing the mark. There's no professional conduct policy for coaches, no certification board unless you count a few classes that USAT puts on, no organized business bureau to complain about bad coaches, and not much more than lunch money to be earned unless you're Joe Friel.

For the age group athletes, there's nothing to be gained except the satisfaction of a race well done, a token prize at the finish line, and maybe a chance to pay another $550 to go to Kona, where they still won't be competing for money. Then they get up again in 1 or 2 mornings after their small or big race and continue their day job. You do the same thing. So it's not serious at all. Why the need to make a big deal with drug testing? Is it so I can pay extra in my race fees for something I don't care about but you do? Maybe you should pay the testing fees for all athletes if you care so much.
See my above regarding integrity in sport. Maybe it's the pipe dream to end all pipe dreams, but we all have them. :D

And I like your changes as well, but I don't think it would change things in the AG ranks. Those that would dope for a meaningless medal would still do so.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO,

When has Ironman ever been "in perspective?"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Checkmate on me
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY testing for AGers should be for Kona/Clearwater qualifiers and that should be done immediately after the race or upon accepting the slot the following day. That is it. No OOC testing. We are amateurs, we are competing for nothing more than pride or bragging rights. I still believe there is no real reason to test AGers whatsoever. Waste of time and money.

Seriously what does the sport gain in testing amateurs? Other ways to improve the sport and make it more enjoyable.

So to summarize what is already short:
  1. NO OOC testing
  2. Test immediately after acceptance of slot.


-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
  1. NO OOC testing
  2. Test immediately after acceptance of slot.
Please don't let the peepee police show up at my real job.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just having folks talk about this the way some are might start to solve some of the issue. But, I have to agree with the comments about when to test.
If it were me, I would start with 100% of the Kona only qualifiers. Then, 100% of the Kona Podium winners. Biggest bang for the buck. And these folks would also be the ones put into a pool of
possible random testing. Then see what happens. If folks start to drop out, or testing finds issues, then decide what the next steps are. But, this would
clearly be the best first step for where it matters.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifying for the race.

x2


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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x3
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifying for the race.

x2


x4

I think the immediate post-race testing (w/in 24 hrs of getting Q slot, for example) is a wonderful first step, and would deter the vast majority of the (hopefully) small minority who would dope to qualify.


I'm not against OOC testing per se (I personally would have no problem w/ it, were I qualified for, or attempting to qualify for Draftwater or Kona).

But I can see the issues regarding folks having to report their whereabouts, missing tests, potential false positives, and whether a positive result (false or no) would be made public.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the top result of a quick google search of "epo testing"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/.../06/080626100921.htm

One of the reasons for the Biological Passport is that it is difficult to detect epo in an athlete (as the study in the above link notes) but it's easy to detect unnatural changes in blood profiles. Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport.

So let's say the WTC decides to do an epo test on all Kona and Clearwater qualifiers. That's a $400 test that according to the study is marginally effective for catching athletes during the BOOSTING stage! 2000 athletes at $400 per test, who pays, and is it effective? No, testing on site after an athlete qualifies for Kona or Clearwater would be like taking a breathalyzer 1 week after drinking. Worthless. In my opinion, out of competition testing is the ONLY way to deter athletes from using PED's and even then it's only marginally effective. I'm only basing this on the opinion that 70.3 and 140.6 athletes would be using epo and not other drugs like steroids and testosterone.

As I've said before, I think AG testing is a bad idea for 2 reasons-the money and resources should be used to deter pros who are performing at a level that many times seems super-human compared to top amateurs going 9 hours with in many cases the same time and resources dedicated to training as a pro. The second reason is that because of these "modest" performances (compared to pros) I really don't believe age groupers are using performance enhancing drugs. But if anyone thinks testing will prove or disprove this notion, then they're mistaken.

I'd like to see a program where all potential qualifiers are subject to testing even before they qualify. Let's be honest-if you're going for a Kona or Clearwater slot, it's no accident, you're going for it starting in the off-season. So you are required at the start of each year to submit your name knowing that you can be tested at any time during the year. If they do decide to test every Kona and Clearwater qualifier, those tests should be done not after the athlete qualifies, but long before those Championship races occur.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

I aplaud the WTC for taking these steps - it's a bold and good move, but I am still of the belief and feeling that this is going to be a hairy beast of a thing to deal with.

Even with minimal loopholes and ironclad protrocol, the drug testing for elite athletes in many elite sports, is frauoght with all kinds of issues. For AG, who are essentially doing this as a hobby on supposedily ar recreational basis, I am guessing that it's going to be a big headache.

Just one issue among many:

You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot. Contrast this with the pro/elite level athletes, who are told to take nothing and/or be extremely careful about what you take - to make sure that it has not been contaminated in any way. I am guessing that there are AG athletes walking around right now, today, that would test positive for something on a WADA list, and they would not even know it!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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"Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport."

why can't/couldn't WTC or any testing authority establish a biological passport for athletes in the OOC pool? of course, this depends on how long one is in the OOC pool, and this is one of the questions i'd like to ask WTC. if you're in the pool for 6 months leading up to kona, and you're tested every 6 weeks, then there's 4 tests that'll show a progression. is that enough testing to establish a passport? i don't know.

but you bring up a good point, don't you? an expensive EPO test that's very unreliable, or a half-dozen blood tests at $20 each that are highly reliable.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who has worked her ass off to compete at the relative pointy end of the admittedly old lady stick, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM coughing up a buck or two and paying for my own testing and asking the people I am racing against to do the same.

With all the $$ I have spent training and racing, a few dollars more to ensure that the competition is clean would be money well spent. I don't think that doping is limited to pros or AG men. And beyond blatant doping are the "medically necessary" treatments that will improve performance or recovery. Who knows how prevalent that is......I know of more than one incident.

Test me in-season, out-of-season, I don't care......if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

Although, why AG'ers would risk their health, integrity and overall karma to "win" at a game is beyond me. Getting to Kona or Clearwater means you are a reasonably good athlete with the money, time and determination to take advantage of your genetics.........doesn't mean much more than that in the big picture.

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot. Contrast this with the pro/elite level athletes, who are told to take nothing and/or be extremely careful about what you take - to make sure that it has not been contaminated in any way. I am guessing that there are AG athletes walking around right now, today, that would test positive for something on a WADA list, and they would not even know it!

I'm not easily offended, but you keep saying this, and it keeps offending me. I don't care how naive I may be but if you think age groupers who are competing for ego and a Kona slot will take supplements like candy and PROS who WILL NOT BE TESTED IF THEY WIN AN IRONMAN and are competing for their livelihood wouldn't, then you're crazy. Do you want that Scott Molina quote again? The one about how Tinley had a closet so full of supplements that his wife couldn't find room for the groceries? Or the trace contamination cases of Spencer Smith, Rebecca Keat, Oliver Bernard, Kelly Guest, and Mike Vine? Or Francisco Pontano, who tested positive for a drug used to control the side effects of steroids and testosterone only to NOT be sanctioned?

Quit picking on the Age Group athlete.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having only had the chance to read a few of the other posts;

Agree with Dev etc that I wouldn't really care about testing AT the WC's. As an AG I think the personal race is getting there, so test all the qualifiers. They could test one of the top (say) 10 for 50% of the AG's at the WC's just to make people think twice there.

Not knowing much about how they work though, I'm wondering whether testing at qualifiers (or the 14 days after) is good enough. Perhaps they dope like crazy in the buildup to their qualifier and get monster strong during the training phase. They then ween off prior to qualifier but because they are strong they can keep pushing it harder than normal so the benefit in some way remains? Come race day they may be clean and still super fast thus nothing shows up. Problem is you can't test them before they have even qualified (I gather). In the absence of anything better I think Dev's suggestion is ideal.

As for penalties, I think a lifetime ban on any WC level event, and possibly even any IM brand event. Get rid of them for good or at least tell them they can enter but they get no official result.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not easily offended, but you keep saying this, and it keeps offending me. I don't care how naive I may be but if you think age groupers who are competing for ego and a Kona slot will take supplements like candy and PROS who WILL NOT BE TESTED IF THEY WIN AN IRONMAN and are competing for their livelihood wouldn't, then you're crazy. Do you want that Scott Molina quote again? The one about how Tinley had a closet so full of supplements that his wife couldn't find room for the groceries? Or the trace contamination cases of Spencer Smith, Rebecca Keat, Oliver Bernard, Kelly Guest, and Mike Vine? Or Francisco Pontano, who tested positive for a drug used to control the side effects of steroids and testosterone only to NOT be sanctioned?

Michael,

All the examples you mention are elite level triathletes competing in Ironman events - with the exceptions of Vine and Guest(I'll come back to these). Do you not think that because these Pros knew that the drug testing was loose at best in IM racing and has been for years, that they could take all these supplements(all legal and OTC but maybe contaminated) and not worry about it. Contrast that with sports were there is a lot of testing - most endurances sports in the Olympic Games, and if those athletes are part of a national testing pool with their Fed, then they are advised to really be careful with what they take, or best case scenerio - take nothing! That's what I am saying.

As for Vine and Guest - Vine raced almost exclusivly on the Xterra circut, another race series which my, best guess is soft on testing. Guest, was caught with a positive test( subsequently strongly disputed and faught at a number of levels) I believe, as a result of being part of TriCan's national team testing pool. I will note again that until now, triathletes in Canada, who raced anything other than ITU races - that means, Ironman, 70.3, Xterra, and all other non-drafting tris, were rarely if ever tested. Other countries, including the U.S. are similar.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As someone who has worked her ass off to compete at the relative pointy end of the admittedly old lady stick, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM coughing up a buck or two and paying for my own testing and asking the people I am racing against to do the same.

Just to be clear, this isn't "asking". It is demanding. It is, "Consent to drug tests or you cannot enter the race"

In Reply To:
Test me in-season, out-of-season, I don't care......if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

I had to do a double take to be sure you'd actually gone ahead and said this. But yup, there it is. Please tell me this was meant tongue-in-cheek. Do you have any idea what abuses of liberty and privacy this brain-dead sentiment has been used to justify?
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 16, 09 7:14
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Let me clarify......this is a GAME. We CHOOSE to play it.......we don't HAVE to.

Requiring testing would not force anybody to be tested, if they don't want to accept the rules, they can CHOOSE not to play and avoid any perceived violations of their privacy. It's totally up to them......a personal choice.

Is it really so different from wear an approved helmet or you can't enter the race? When we enter, we are agreeing to follow the rules.

I am willing to open myself up to abuses of liberty and privacy that may result, because I make the choice to compete.

AG'ers don't make $$ playing. They don't NEED to compete. They are free to find another sport to play if they don't agree with the rules of this one.

I struggle to understand those who attempt to turn a recreational activity into something more.....

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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And again, as I've stated a couple of times here, I understand that we choose this. And I'm fine with you opening yourself up to those abuses. But now you want to tell me that if I want to continue to play, I have to open myself up to the same abuses.

And for what? So that you can be sure that you weren't cheated out of a kona slot?

No prize money here. No endorsements. Nobody's livelihood is being threatened. I now have to submit to a drug test to make others feel better about what they spent all the money on. Or I can choose not to enter. Before I didn't have to do that. There is a new barrier to my entry. You also made a choice. You chose to spend all that money and time on this sport. Nobody made you. But now you feel that entitles you to my blood. I disagree.

Remember, they test for PEDs and they test for recreational drugs. I see no prohibition on them keeping samples as long as they want. TUEs, etc. It is a record. It can be subpoena-ed by the government if they choose. Am I worried about that? Do I do recreational drugs? Of course not. That's not the point. It's none of their damn business. Its one more nail in the coffin of my privacy or give up the fun thing that I love.

They can screw it up. Wait, correction. They WILL screw it up. If there is one thing that history has shown, they absolutely without question WILL screw it up. They will release information they are not supposed to. They already do it with elites. They will get tests wrong. Maybe there are things in my blood that aren't illegal but that somebody wants to know about. Maybe I need a TUE for something my employer or insurer wants to know about. We keep medical records private for a reason. But now to do this hobby, we have to let more people know about them. All so you can feel better about spending all that money.

And when it comes time for me to have to sign on the dotted line, I probably will. I have the relief of knowing I'm not headed for Kona anytime soon. But if some drug tester comes by, I wonder if I won't just tell him to go screw purely on principle and then give up a hobby I really like.

The irony of all of this is that you end up your post with the statement

"I struggle to understand those who attempt to turn a recreational activity into something more"

I think adding drug testing of age-groupers completes the transformation
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 16, 09 8:45
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have to give up your hobby, just not go to clearwater and kona :)

Also, I think if they go forward with this it makes it that much more important to get this rankings system working. There is no point of doing a test at the qualifier or inbetween the qualifier and kona, it is 99% pointless. If they have the rankings system they can see if anybody is making improbable improvements or who is way above and beyond other people and then test them out of competition.

The other question is who is going to be taking these tests? Are they going to have some guy driving around in a geo metro poking people? What if he loses the samples or mixes them up?

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
Last edited by: msuguy512: Sep 16, 09 8:46
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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No, I don't feel that I am entitled to your blood, what I am entitled to is a level playing field made up of competitors who compete fairly and equitably according to the rules of the game they choose to play.

I have been to Kona and hope to go again, so yes, I take this hobby very seriously. But am I willing to risk my health and integrity to get on the podium and back to the Big Island? No, absolutely not. Because it's bad for me phsically and it's against the rules. Am I confident that all of my fellow competitiors feel the same way? Again, absolutely not.

It is a game and a recreational activity. And perhaps it is easier for those who are a llittle farther back from the pointy end of the stick to say it doesn't matter if people dope because it doesn't afffect them. However, when it does directly affect you and the results of your honest efforts, it can be a bit tough to stomach.

I am pretty comfortable in saying that there are people doping or pushing the envelope amongst my competitors........it's not right and they should not be rewarded because there is no testing. Simple as that.

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
No, I don't feel that I am entitled to your blood, what I am entitled to is a level playing field made up of competitors who compete fairly and equitably according to the rules of the game they choose to play.

You can't have one without the other. In order to get your "entitlement", someone is going to be taking my blood or urine. Someone is going to be keeping a record.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The fact of the matter is that Ironman is owned and operated by a private company who have every right to make you do all sorts of valid or invalid, reasonable or downright silly things in order to participate in their event.

If they write into the rules that everyone has to show up at bike check wearing a dunce cap and clown shoes, that's their right and your option as a consumer is simply to either get in line, or spend your money elsewhere.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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Actually it really doesn't give them quite the carte blanche you might think. If they start calling for strip-searches and full-body cavity searches but only of the women, I'm pretty sure they're going to be in big trouble.

But that is beside the point. No one ever denied that they CAN implement drug testing. No one ever denied that the consumer has the option of not participating. In fact I've said that about 3 times now. What point exactly do you think you are debating here?.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The fact of the matter is that Ironman is owned and operated by a private company who have every right to make you do all sorts of valid or invalid, reasonable or downright silly things in order to participate in their event.

If they write into the rules that everyone has to show up at bike check wearing a dunce cap and clown shoes, that's their right and your option as a consumer is simply to either get in line, or spend your money elsewhere.
No, he also (as someone else pointed out earlier) has the right to question the decision, and make his displeasure known. It may not affect the outcome (wear the cap or don't race), but he does have the right to be heard.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Heard by whom? People on a public message board? Or the people in charge of the event?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Actually it really doesn't give them quite the carte blanche you might think. If they start calling for strip-searches and full-body cavity searches but only of the women, I'm pretty sure they're going to be in big trouble.

But that is beside the point. No one ever denied that they CAN implement drug testing. No one ever denied that the consumer has the option of not participating. In fact I've said that about 3 times now. What point exactly do you think you are debating here?.
My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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The entire point of this thread was just chatter. Why are you here otherwise?

We are debating the rules and what changes should be made. I think a change that should be made is that is should only be for those who can win money.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I voted for the drug testing with changes or more accurately more information on the testing. So maybe it was not with changes but more clarification. Regarding out of competition testing, how would it play out if they showed up at my work? I am in a relatively senior level finance position with a large banking client. The building is secured and access to floors and elevators is controlled. 75% of my day is spent in meetings with the client. If chosen for a test and they showed up to the building would someone be required to leave a client meeting and take a doping test? It may not be a public event but make no mistake the building secuirty would find out about the drug test and the rumors would fly.

With all that said like others I am for the testing and would welcome the more level playing field or knowing that wtc was making an effort to ensure we all race by the rules. It took me 8 years to qualify for Kona and I missed a spot by one position twice with one time being less than 20 seconds. Yes, I take this hobby serious and it does matter to me that we abide by the rules. I can understand others perspective that it does not matter to them but it does to me and it seems other posting here as well.

Reading the list of banned substances and it does not seem to be overly challenging to stay clear of the substances? I do not take supplements other then Glucosamine and Chondroitin. Regarding a TUE, the WTC could help its cause by better communicating how it plans to hande TUE's.

Just my 2 cents on top of all the other banter,

Peace,
RF
Last edited by: rockfish: Sep 16, 09 10:32
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.
Funny, because I actually gave more thought to buying a Nineteen because of Fleck's willingness to give his 'real' opinion on the forums, and not act like a sales guy where he's just trying to avoid pissing people off. The fact that he often gives advice on buying a wetsuit which may result in the person buying a different brand than his own really impressed me.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Heard by whom? People on a public message board? Or the people in charge of the event?
Yes.

He can write about it here (like he's doing), he can write letters to industry magazines, WTC, the dog groomer on the corner, pretty much anyone he wants to. Will it change anything? Maybe. Maybe not.

Now, if he wants to RACE, then yes, he has two options. Don't race or accept the conditions. Outside of that, he has many options. He does have some good points, if you actually read through his arguments.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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"My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter."

Your point is false; there are more than two options. The chatter itself can lead to negotiations, which then lead to rule changes that help the WTC avoid bad publicity (we can call it the third option). Once the rules change, you still have three or more options, including put up, shut up, or get the rules changed again. Think of chatter as "community organizing" or maybe forming an alliance to vote the bad positions off the island, and you'll have a better understanding of what can be done. We like to make things black and white, but in most developed countries, due process is a recognized right (and large private companies generally observe it by tradition with things like their "customer service department", although they don't have to) and then there's a lot of room for gray. As an example, how many penalized drafters do you know who don't appeal their penalties to the race director?

I think the last thing the WTC wants is a bunch of media attention with article headlines such as "New WTC Drug Testing Irks Racers", or "Conflicts Emerge with New WTC Drug Testing Protocol." You think it's just chatter, but the WTC doesn't make much of its money from impersonal government contracts. The money comes directly from customers who use the service, with some additional fees from cities and brand licensing.

You can mock "chatter" all you want, but it's more powerful than you think.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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no one has still answered my question, whether they are willing to foot this bill for this through increased entry fees.

But, Dan, your estimate of a $20 blood test is way off. Urine alone, is $400-500, and that is probably not testing for EPO, and about the most basic test you can get. Blood only goes up from there, as you need someone certified to take it.

I don't even want to know what the biological passport would cost.

I don't know that most of you guys realize what kind of a budget USADA and WADA work with. It is Huge! To think that WTC would even through a fraction of their own money at this, without charging you more, is just laughable.

Their professional testing is laughable.

And Fleck makes a good point. When you are being test, esp. in OOC, you have to be very careful of where you go, what you take, what you eat, who gave you what. This is an inconvenience that I am will to bet almost no age grouper would actually want. You get to tell them where you will be every hour of the day for the next 4 months.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck...what do Dmitri Gaag and Brigitte McMahon, both World/Olympic Champions have anything in common?

I believe in Germany the Ironman pros are part of the DTU out of competition pool, so your wide sweeping statement that Ironman guys don't get tested in other countries is not entirely accurate.

I'm with Eganski wrt to what you've posted. The closest many of us come to doping is Starbucks or Japanese Green tea....other than that, there is nothing going in that does not grow on a tree or from the ground in nature or that cannot be killed and cooked.

Kelly Guest's whining about HAVING to take supplements because of training volume is horse shit. You can get plenty of calories from a standard grocery store from the outside aisles.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot.

Fleck,

With all due respect ... for someone who makes a living selling things to AG triathletes you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base. I value your input as "an old school guy" and have found many gems of advice amongst your numerous "back in the day ..." posts, but this continuous bashing of your clientele gets old. Frankly, I doubt I would buy anything from you ... as I would always feel that you would be laughing at me right after I left.

Carry on.
Look he didn't say they were taking illegal supplements just that age groupers have tended to go to the expo or see an add "race faster" "recover quicker" "go longer"
take free samples etc without paying attention to whats in it or trusting whomever gave it to them assuming the vendor must be trusted they are allowed to advertise or have a booth.
And sometimes some of these might have something banned or at least might show a false postive.
Pros (current day pros) probably pay lots more attention to that because they are tested and they worry about that stuff more than age groupers would.
I see no lack or respect there.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Let's start with something manageable, taking into account that AGers have full time pursuits other than being an athlete (ex. my company told me today that I need to fly to Germany on Saturday for meeting in either Berlin or Munich on Monday [still up in the air]...can you say ADAMS nightmare). An AGer who is a lawyer can't walk out of court when testers show up....ADAMS is unworkable for AGers. How 'bout in competition testing only, and for the real problem drugs: steriods, EPO, uppers. I doubt pot or heroin would help someone win a race, so why spend the $$ to test for it or penalize people for it? I would just greenlight ingredients in inhalers as well, asking for TUEs is also just too much overhead.
I'm sure there's PED cheating in triathlons, but let's start with a workable system that we can build upon rather than one that's so cumbersome that it collapses under it's own weight.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In a lot of countries you are can be tested as long as you take part in organized sport. Of course top athletes get tested most but targeted testes of age groupers have shown that doping is a bigger problem than just the top athletes.

This is the best quote I have seen regarding doping testes. It says a lot about differences in different countries regarding doping and also why it is important to have a robust testing system. The question is: will WTC try to look clean or will it try to clean up the sport.

Jack Sasseville Says:
August 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
In 1988 when I was a coach on the Canadian National Team I was skiing at the Dachstein glacier in September when Ben Johnson was caught for steroids at the Seoul Olympics.


On the day that he was caught we were been razzed by the Italian team coaches for being a doping country. I was standing beside the track with Gerhardt Taller who was the head of the racing service dept for Fischer at the time. Fischer was one of the two main suppliers of skis to the Soviet team at the time.

I was lamenting being a Canadian that day to him and he said to me “Jack, the difference between your team and their team (he was pointing to a Russian skier) is that when your team gets tested in your country for doping they are tested to be caught, but for the Russians they are tested so that they don’t get caught.”
http://blogs.fasterskier.com/editor/2009/08/26/recent-russian-doping-history/
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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"you sure do repeatedly demonstrate a profound lack of respect for you customer base."

i didn't read it like that at all. and, i'm precisely the sort of person he wrote about. there is a thriving nutritionals industry that triathlon supports. if you looked in my pantry you'd find fluid replacement, gels, concentrated carbohydrate recovery stuff, magnesium pills, salt replacement, protein powder, gummy bear type things, various bars, and i don't know all what else.

now, maybe you don't have any of this stuff, and you do your sport off broccoli and spam. good for you. but your commentary is pretty harsh, and i think you're way off base. if you don't want to by anything from fleck on the basis of some sort of moral issue, fine, but i know everybody in the wetsuit biz, and you're cutting yourself off from about the most stand up guy in the industry.
if you'll only buy your next wetsuit from somebody better than fleck, don't throw away your 1987 QR, you're going to be in it for a long time ;-)


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Halvard....reminds me of Pierre Harvey earlier that year of 1988 finishing 14th in the Olympics at Calgary.

A few weeks later he wins the World Cup in Holmenkollen which in the XC ski world is like winning Kona in triathlon. The Russians were "off the back" as they came down from their Olympic "program".

One of my biggest thrills in my life was actually this past year....I was racing in the Eastern Canadian XC ski championships "off the back" in something like 59th place....but just just over 30 seconds up was "the old guy" Pierre, still competing for fun...that was cool.

In the mid 90's during the peak EPP years our XC ski program really sucked from a competitive perpective...but as worldwide doping programs caught up, Canadian World Cup results got much better....coincidence? Pierre's son is now one of the top young skiers in the world and hopefully he is competing on a more level field than his dad did.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [AZRob] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"My point is that when you're dealing with a private company (notwithstanding things that are clearly illegal) the options are put up or shut up, and all the chatter is just that - chatter."

Your point is false; there are more than two options. The chatter itself can lead to negotiations, which then lead to rule changes that help the WTC avoid bad publicity (we can call it the third option). Once the rules change, you still have three or more options, including put up, shut up, or get the rules changed again. Think of chatter as "community organizing" or maybe forming an alliance to vote the bad positions off the island, and you'll have a better understanding of what can be done. We like to make things black and white, but in most developed countries, due process is a recognized right (and large private companies generally observe it by tradition with things like their "customer service department", although they don't have to) and then there's a lot of room for gray. As an example, how many penalized drafters do you know who don't appeal their penalties to the race director?

I think the last thing the WTC wants is a bunch of media attention with article headlines such as "New WTC Drug Testing Irks Racers", or "Conflicts Emerge with New WTC Drug Testing Protocol." You think it's just chatter, but the WTC doesn't make much of its money from impersonal government contracts. The money comes directly from customers who use the service, with some additional fees from cities and brand licensing.

You can mock "chatter" all you want, but it's more powerful than you think.
I think if they've successfully ignored the brouhaha around drafting and overcrowded courses, they can avoid the same around AG drug testing.

Just my opinion tho.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [itseazy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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I think the issue that some of us had with Fleck's widesweeping statement about age groupers is that many of us DO NOT just do stuff blindly. I think guys like Eganski, Itzeasy and myself (not that I am in the same category of speed, but I put in as much into this sport as many guys) go out of our way to be the best we can be without any shortcuts. There are many in the same boat. Sure, there are some age groupers looking for the silver bullet, but Fleck's general statement is far from fair. Frankly most age groupers who I know who treat this sport with some level of seriousness (incorporated into their lifestyle and come out to compete at every race....) actually do the opposite of what Fleck says.

They do the hard work, and are pretty diligent about what they put in their bodies and ARE NOT buying into the claims of any magic supplement, cause we know that if it sounds too good to be true, then it likely is.

So no, I don't think age groupers across the board are popping stuff in like candy.

Yes, there are some trying to take shortcuts, and we DO want a level playing field, but outing these guys and if testing is needed, lets at least start with "in competition" at the qual events....after qualifier events is too late.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John
I do not see the supplements outside of crap to injest beforehand or during a workout. You have never been around bodybuilding or 'recreational' weight lifters or almost any guy at the gym. I simply disagree with what he said, but my experience may be different, I do not think he was throwing fecal matter in my general direction or anyone elses.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Fleck,
You add a lot to the board here. You've been around the block and are usually a solid voice of reason.

That being said, you shitting all over AG triathletes is getting a bit old for me. I like to laugh at the goofy folks with all the gizmos as much as the next guy but I try to keep the 'holier than thou' stuff to a minimum. It's especially surprising coming from a guy who sells triathlon gear.

I used to click on a thread if I saw that you posted something, now not so much.
I don't think he defecated in the general direction of anyone. He told it like it is. Triathletes love their supplements. More than any sport I've ever participated in (And that's been a bunch!)

John
I do not see the supplements outside of crap to injest beforehand or during a workout. You have never been around bodybuilding or 'recreational' weight lifters or almost any guy at the gym. I simply disagree with what he said, but my experience may be different, I do not think he was throwing fecal matter in my general direction or anyone elses.
Heh, actually I have. My major was kinesiology, I was around the gym and teams at the college plenty, and then did an internship at a gym before graduation. You're right, bodybuilders are pretty bad, but I don't really consider that a sport, truth be told. I was looking at it more from organized competitive sports. the majority of the guys I see at the gym will never come close to a competitive bodybuilding experience.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Here's the top result of a quick google search of "epo testing"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/.../06/080626100921.htm

One of the reasons for the Biological Passport is that it is difficult to detect epo in an athlete (as the study in the above link notes) but it's easy to detect unnatural changes in blood profiles. Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport.

So let's say the WTC decides to do an epo test on all Kona and Clearwater qualifiers. That's a $400 test that according to the study is marginally effective for catching athletes during the BOOSTING stage! 2000 athletes at $400 per test, who pays, and is it effective? No, testing on site after an athlete qualifies for Kona or Clearwater would be like taking a breathalyzer 1 week after drinking. Worthless. In my opinion, out of competition testing is the ONLY way to deter athletes from using PED's and even then it's only marginally effective. I'm only basing this on the opinion that 70.3 and 140.6 athletes would be using epo and not other drugs like steroids and testosterone.

As I've said before, I think AG testing is a bad idea for 2 reasons-the money and resources should be used to deter pros who are performing at a level that many times seems super-human compared to top amateurs going 9 hours with in many cases the same time and resources dedicated to training as a pro. The second reason is that because of these "modest" performances (compared to pros) I really don't believe age groupers are using performance enhancing drugs. But if anyone thinks testing will prove or disprove this notion, then they're mistaken.

I'd like to see a program where all potential qualifiers are subject to testing even before they qualify. Let's be honest-if you're going for a Kona or Clearwater slot, it's no accident, you're going for it starting in the off-season. So you are required at the start of each year to submit your name knowing that you can be tested at any time during the year. If they do decide to test every Kona and Clearwater qualifier, those tests should be done not after the athlete qualifies, but long before those Championship races occur.

Very nice post.

If it was so easy to catch the dopers wouldn't we be seeing more positives in cycling...

I would also like someone to guestimate how many actual Kona qualifiers are actually doping to get their slot. Reading this thread it seems as if over 75% of the qualifiers are doping. I would think that MAYBE in every Ironman there is 1 AG doping with EPO to win a slot. I think this entire thing is a waste of money that should be spent on the pros. Test them 10x more in and out of competition, that is where the doping is happening.

Derek
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [trimess] [ In reply to ]
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no one has still answered my question, whether they are willing to foot this bill for this through increased entry fees.

But, Dan, your estimate of a $20 blood test is way off. Urine alone, is $400-500, and that is probably not testing for EPO, and about the most basic test you can get. Blood only goes up from there, as you need someone certified to take it.

I don't even want to know what the biological passport would cost.

I don't know that most of you guys realize what kind of a budget USADA and WADA work with. It is Huge! To think that WTC would even through a fraction of their own money at this, without charging you more, is just laughable.

Their professional testing is laughable.

And Fleck makes a good point. When you are being test, esp. in OOC, you have to be very careful of where you go, what you take, what you eat, who gave you what. This is an inconvenience that I am will to bet almost no age grouper would actually want. You get to tell them where you will be every hour of the day for the next 4 months.
How about a compromise-get a call to have blood/urine drawn at XYZ lab within 4 hours or you will be eliminated from the potential pool of OOC qualifiers.

As to paying for this, I'm guessing that a 10% increase across the board for all participants will not scare off too many people from enjoying an already expensive sport .

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [theriad] [ In reply to ]
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Cycling is the perfect example of what I fear (and what others hope) will occur in triathlon-that the lack of failed tests will be indicative of a clean sport when the reality is that it is more indicative of a faulty testing program. The Bio Passport is the perfect example-blood results that would indicate blood doping to a second year medical student are being ignored because they fall within the margins. In cycling, the Anti-Doping restrictions have always, in principle, been about catching the cheaters but the reality is that they have been just that-restrictions about how far you can bend the rules.

But the train has left the station on the debate whether or not the WTC should institute a testing program, so now the issue is-how do they get it right? Maybe approach deterrents from the penalty side and not the testing side? In Europe, a 2-year ban for doping is not a deterrent to a kid whose alternative to cycling is working in a Belgian factory, and neither is the drug testing itself since it's easy to circumnavigate. But what if the WTC makes the penalties for doping so severe that that is what deters the athlete? That is a very dicey proposition but I fear that Drug Testing is too imperfect to actually deter a sophisticated athlete and while I think (and hope) that Age Groupers aren't using PED's, I'm too cynical to ever think that testing will prove me right.

So, what penalties will make doping "just" for a Kona slot too risky to consider? I'm sure we can think of something.
Last edited by: eganski: Sep 17, 09 4:31
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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I like the idea of going off site, but I think if you could give a person 24 or maybe 48 hours it would work. Not sure if you have ped's in your system what an additional 20-44 hours would do to making the PED's less detectable?

Get to a lab in 4 hours? This not always possible, at work could you just leave when you wanted to get tested within 4 hours? Most labs probably have 9-5 hours, if I get a call at 10 am it would not be likely with work committments I could get to a lab by 2 pm with disrupting work. Do you think the Venture capitalists that own WTC could report to a lab in 4 hours at all times if called upon?
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know how out of competition testing works in the USA, but in UK you only have to notify testing authority of your whereabouts for one hour each day. If you are chosen for testing they will turn up at this location and wait for the full hour for you to turn up. Failure to appear counts as a strike, 3 failures means you get a ban.

So in the UK, there is no risk of testers turning up at work to test you, as you determine the location of the test. You can also change your location for testing online at short notice.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.

What he said.


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Last edited by: mmrocker13: Sep 17, 09 6:05
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Philb] [ In reply to ]
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it is now like this in the US, but was just implemented this year. It does make the process easier, but they have also now decided not to call athletes if they are not around. This is a big problem for a sport like triathlon, where you are constantly out on the road biking and running. I had to get called the last 3 tests I had, and would have missed them all if they had not called.

The whole point of the OOC test is that it is random and you don't know it is coming. with 24 or even 4 hours notice, you could do sketchy things to avoid a positive test. The reason they don't let you out of their site as soon as the notify you is so you can't do this kind of thing.

it's also very inconvenient for athletes to have to go to a seperate place to get tested. it is nice that they can test you right where you live. The samples have to be flown to one of two facilities in the US anyway, so having you go to a "lab" is usually not really that helpful to the process.

So I have only gotten one answer on cost.
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