I had a very similiar swim story. My watch said 28min when I came out of the water--NO FRICKIN' WAY WAS THAT 2112yds.

Had a similiar situation on the bike. I was chewed up and spit out at around 20 miles. The one consolation is that the marshal caught up to them at around 25 miles. They had to get busted. The motorcycle stayed with them for quite a while. The problem for them was that it was such a large pack that the main body was not able to bust up because they were so bunched together.

I was quite happy with the course and with the organizer. Well run event. I can't imagine anyone not PRing today. Perfect temp, no wind and a short swim=half hour off my last half.

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

BTW, any idea when they post results online? I forgot to look at the results board onsite and only have my unofficial watch time to go off.

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

Swim was short, a little annoying I suppose for strong swimmers, I can hold my own though swimming and I won't throw up to much of a fuss besides the fact there seemed to not be enough buoys for a crooked course, it was tough to find buoys when placed in a half moon crescent shape along beach. My bigger beef is the amount of time the court marshals spend at the front of the race where little drafting occurs because of the caliber of the athletes and room for dispersion. On my way back in it was pack city watching the other athletes still going out with little monitoring from officials. Maybe spend some time policing those 40-44 males or in today's case the 25-29, 20-24 females.

This race frustrates me to no end. I saw the marshals for about half the race, and the bike course is so crowded it's really hard to avoid the groups. Plus, it's so flat and fast everyone is going the same speed. I got boxed in a few times and couldn't get out of the group quick enough to avoid penalties (at least I'm guessing I got penalized since my time is off). It's very frustrating because I go out of my way to avoid drafting and ride within the rules, but it's tough when you have to spend the whole bike leg trying to avoid people and penalties and you can't ride your own race.

Not to mention to roads were horrible and the swim and bike were short. The race is well organized, but I don't think I'll race it again. I hear Door County is really good and I don't think they get such a big turnout.

I am interested to see the penalties handed out. I was overtaken by a large group around mile 16, totally PISSED...i think yelled more than few times and called some names. Race marshall drives by and doesn't even slow down....even MORE pissed..About two minutes later another marshall comes by and I am pissed enough to get a little lippy with the guy. he said "don't worry, they have all been DQ's on the road." Was he jsut appeasing me or did DQ them? I am no sympathy for anyone that was blatantly drafting today....there were alot of them for sure.

Not sure the swim was too short, my wife ran the beach twice to catch all of us out there today and said it was every bit of a mile fro m yellow to yellow. There was a fairly strong current out there today.....it is what it is i guess, we all did the sam course....I was shocked when I stood up at 22:xx!!

Overall a great day, major PR mostly because I raced smart for the first time at a half distance race.

Yeah, my time is off as well. If it is a penalty I am going to be ticked. Like you I tried like crazy to stay away from the draft packs, but when they surround you on a corner what the heck can you do?

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

Swim was definately short - as in olympic distance length....

Bike was close, not a ton short, but maybe a little - no big deal honestly.

Run was spot on.

Timing was horrible - there must be tons of "bad" time - I especially like the girl in F25-29 that bike 2:21 (4 minutes faster then Lisa Bentley 2 years ago) - and 18 minutes faster then her split at NO 70.3.

I had a good race, but definately felt let down by HFP: lack of an accurate course two years in a row on the swim (although I give them a freebie last year)*, appearant timing problems, and I was also disappointed by the lack of a competive pro field, this was my 5th racine, and I may look for a new race next summer

Side note on the top folks - Blake Becker was a rockstar today.


*I was particularly disappointed with the swim. Short, shallow, I mean really if I wanted to do a swim where I could walk the whole thing I wouldn't do a race in Lake Michigan - COME on

This is pure speculation and I have no inside information to support this, but, I suspect what happened at Pewaukee last week impacted the swim course today.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It would not surprise me, but it does not change my opinion.

I've seen plenty race walkers but never seen people walking the swim. This was a first.

You were the rock star.

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

oh and I forgot - DRAFTING.

I didn't see much at my end of the race, but when I was out on the run course around mile two I saw a HUGE pack come in. Side by side about 15-20 people deep.

Something needs to be done - USAT handed out 100+ penalties, but that was worthless. Break the field up into smaller waves, or limit the size of the field. It was totally redicoulous today.


Also - I'm not planing to leave my complaints on ST - working on a "nice" email right now...

The packs were effin unreal. I was in the second wave and was out of the water in 25 minutes. About 1:20 into the bike I got hit by the first pack and had to sit up and stop pedaling, almost had to break, a marshall came by and I looked at him with a "what the hell" look. He took off up the road and nailed most of the pack. The worst was at about mile 45 or so when I got swamped by a group of 35ish riders I think mostly from the 30-39 AG's based on how long it took to catch me and it was shit, I actually did have to break to get out of the back. At that point though I think all of the marshalls were out looking at the bigger part of the field.

Not going to name names but I haven't been smoked by a female in quite some time on the bike, my ftp is about 315 watts and I weigh about 155 lbs... It is painfully obvious that there was drafting including by the female winner. All you have to do is look at lauren jensen, she got smoked by 1.5 mph to some AG girls. I don't think so. Those who went out early or those who are decent swimmers were out their by themselves while the peleton reeled them in

I had a PR race and had a great time.

I think the swim was short too but how much does the current take off the time?

There was a nice lady that said "Hi" to me during the run, I can not think of who it was...I'm sorry.

jaretj

So you got "chicked" and now assuming the winner was drafting? I don't know my FTP but if that helps my dick is 7 inches and a lot of female athletes passed me. It wasn't your day was it? First the Tshirt now getting chicked. ;-)

It's a race it's supposed to be fun, there are a lot of other things to be pissed off.

The girl rode a 2:39 3/4 months ago, and rode 2:21 today.

WTF?

So you got "chicked" too? ;-) Without knowing hard to make a good judgement. If you seen her then its OK, but it could be a bad day for her a month ago?

Regarding the age group girl (s) in that group. I was verbally trying to break them up. I would ride past them verbally shouting "I am passing all thirty of you by myself and when I do I will pull to the right when I am clear" "why don't you guys try it"
I feel like I ran a clinic out there on the course today with that big pack. There were three age group girls in it that had no problem hanging on.
One of the times I passed them I asked the whole group how they slept at night knowing they are cheeters. No one even looks over at me. It is really sad. some of those people took home someone elses award today.
The positive is that there were way more penalties given this year than last year. Many DQ's for drafting. This whole thing sickens me. Here is a great test to challenge and race each others fitness level and it is turned into something else.
To the drafters today, and you know exactly who you are, you are everything bad in this sport. You are our cancer. What will you stop at?

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"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK

Chicked would be putting it nicely - I was emasculated.

It was being sucked along at 24 mph. Cheating! No bad days here ot there. I saw it and rode through it for 45 miles today

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"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK

My wife raced in the elite wave. She said some of the guys were definitely drafting a bit when the marshalls weren't around, but not too bad. Friends who started in the AG waves said the packs there were crazy and it was near impossible to not get caught up. If you tried to pass the packs, they'd catch you and if you sat up, someone would slide in front of you over and over. Not sure what the marshalls could do - they had a big crew and they handed out a lot of penalties.

Encourage everyone to do the same:

Quote:

Shannon and gang
I wanted to offer you a few pieces of feedback from today’s SORT race.

First off – I am a huge fan of your races. I have done SORT 5 times now, and have done the TTT 4 times, and plan to do it a 5th next year. Up until this year I considered SORT to be equal to or only slightly behind Ironman races in terms of quality, organization, and support.

The first was the swim. Why was it so short? Why was it so shallow in places that while swimming I was able to touch the bottom? As I told a friend – if I wanted to be able to walk the entire swim, or a large portion of it – I wouldn’t sign up for a race in Lake Michigan. At a race of the stature that you promote Racine to be, a short swim is unacceptable (in fact at any race IMO) – last year – no issues as the fog was crazy and you did the best you could. This year – inexcusable. If I wanted to swim 1500 meters, I would have done an Olympic today.

Second – the drafting today was horrendous. Words simply cannot describe what I saw when I was at mile 2 of the run, and I saw two groups of riders, 2 wide 15-20 deep cruising towards transition – I only imagine what else was happening out there. Up in the elite wave it was pretty honest. Obviously a boatload of USAT officials giving out 100+ penalties didn’t do jack. You can’t count on the participants to be honest, so YOU need to do something. Smaller waves, larger intervals between waves, a smaller field, something. Fix the problem by preventing it.

Third – I am not sure if there were timing problems in some of the waves, or if it was a sheer effect of drafting, but some of the Female bike times were insane, I haven’t looked at the Men’s times close enough to form an opinion there. I observe that an female AG “winner” rode a 2:21, nearly 24 miles an hour. Out splitting me by 2 minutes – last year at IMWI I rode 31 minutes faster than that participant. Just 3 or 4 months ago she rode a 2:39 at NO 70.3. Not only that, but she rode 4 minutes faster than Lisa Bentley - the year she was 3rd in the World at the Ironman.

Give. Me. A. Break.

Lastly – I was personally disappointed in the lack of a deep competitive pro field that we have seen in years past. It would have been fun to see David Thompson, Luke Bell, Chris Leigh, Jordan Rapp, or any other speedy guy out on the course dishing out the hurt with Blake.

While I fully intend to return to the TTT again next year, I am currently doubting my return to SORT, despite it being in my backyard and the timing of it in my usual training schedule – I see a lot of potential in taking a drive up to the Door County half and hopefully enjoying a much fairer race.

I am disappointed to have to send an email of such a negative tone to you guys, but the things I mention above were a HUGE spoiler on a day that saw me execute my best “half” in a couple of years. See you next year at the Triple T, and hopefully when I will feel confident that SORT return to its past form next year when I chose a race for this weekend.

Scott Bowe

one other thought; I have not done a race with these type of AG starts before and I wonder if that is not part of the problem. Lots of testosterone all in one place with womens wave just before and after.

Also I would reconsider where the relay waves are started. It only takes 1-2 strong relay bikers who disregard drafting rules to work together and next thing you know there are 15-20 AG'ers caught up in the train. I would put the relay wave right after Elite;s

Swimfan - clearly I'm not about myself but bettering triathlon - that is what the other post was about. I personally know Adrienne and she has a ton of talent, but she also has an obligation to the sport and as a sponsor/team athlete/business owner it reflects poorly upon her, her sponsors, her team and her business. When you get so greedy/competitive there is a greater and greater chance of being found out or at least people getting suspicious in this case it was too much. I'm not pissed off about it and I can sleep well tonight - I know I did a draft-free event and that is what matters to me. I could care less about my award, I didn't bother to pick it up - but it may have mattered to someone out there. Someone who deserved the victory in that division or the overall race.

I often hear people make comments like "it is supposed to fun", but you have it wrong. Triathlon is very competitive, some people may do it for fun but others have other goals sponsors, money, fame, kona, bragging rights...etc. And at this point it is potentially taking that away from someone else. To be clear, I can't in fact evoke guilt on this person you are correct - but drafting or stories of drafting are like porn - "you simply know it when you see it/hear it". Swimfan are you saying you are in favor of drafting??? I just want to clarify things. Also to clarify things I didn't have an off day, I still smoked Adrienne just not on the bike which I have every other time racing against her.

I'm not a fan of this relay stuff at all - I think it has no reason in the bigger races whatsoever. The smaller races fine, but these bigger races it just makes a cluster of things. Space out the waves and figure out a permanent penalty system. Watch people longer, tape it, make a judgment call, review and if necessary suspend the athlete from USAT races for 1 year.

If you know her go tell her face.

cant disagree re: the relay thing. Like I said if you watched some of the trains you would note they were led by 1-2 people who had bike only kits on (bike shorts/top etc etc). A lot of folks then get caught up because:

a) they are cheaters
b) they don't realize they are in a draft or how powerful it can be (i would pass riders even in my slow state and 5 miles later here they come on the train)
c) as your tasty MPH keeps climbing beyond what you are capable of yourself it becomes hard to go back to solo riding and reality.....so you convince yourself that you really are capable of riding 22-23 mph all the time......
d) some combination of above

HFP - count us out next year. Between the ridiculous times, drafting, and the short swims we had enough.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
1st FEMALE Overall: AG'er who beats Lisa Bentley bike split
2nd FEMALE Overall: AG'er goes 4:23 today (but in 2008 went 4:41; 4:53 in 2007)
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Matt and Adrienne Amman

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Matt Amman

From the local coverage of the race: http://www.journaltimes.com/...b6d3d35742293024.txt

Saeger prevails despite problem with timing chip BY PETER JACKEL
pjackel@journaltimes.com Monday, July 20, 2009 12:17 AM CDT

RACINE — A phantom champion is what Adrienne Saeger was.

After almost deciding to bypass the Spirit of Racine Triathlon following an uninspiring (for her) race, Saeger traveled to Racine from her Naperville, Ill., home for Sunday’s event. The plan was to sort of cool out from some recent frustration at the Hyvee Marathon in West Des Moines, Iowa, by entering as an age group athlete instead of in the elite class and just allowing everything else to take care of itself.

Afterward, she was trying to explain how she won her first-ever half triathlon with a body that seemingly responded effortlessly to all she asked of herself. That is, after she and her husband, Andy, convinced race officials that she had, indeed, won the race.

The 30-year-old Saeger won the women’s portion of this event, which started and ended at Racine’s North Beach, with a time of 4:22.57. Michelle Lanouette was second (4:23.35) and Loren Schechter was third (4:23.57).

“I raced Elite the last two races that I did and this race, I decided to do just last Monday,” said Saeger, who operates her own yoga studio in Naperville. “I didn’t taper for the race. I was using it just as a training race so I said, ‘I’ll just run age group because I’m not rested for it and I’m just using it as training.’ ”

If Saeger wasn’t at her best mentally, she sure was physically.

“The whole time I was on the bike, I kept saying to myself, ‘Is this seriously happening?’ ” Saeger said. “Every time I would go a little harder and think my legs were going to burn out, they’d just snap right back.”

But even after such an impressive morning, which included placing 44th overall in the bike race (2:21.44) and 75th in the run (1:33.27), Saeger didn’t initially realize she was the women’s champion.

“When I finished the race, my husband said, ‘I think you won,’ ” she said. “I said, ‘OK, cool!’ So we go and look at results and my name wasn’t on there at all. So we went over to the race director and he said, ‘There just might be a problem with the timing chip.’

“My husband asked if he was going to be able to finish that by the time awards were done. The race director said, ‘I’m not sure,’ and my husband said, ‘It’s kind of a big deal because we think she won, like the whole race.’ ”

Saeger was eventually verified as the overall women’s champion. She finished nearly nine minutes ahead of the next runner in the Female Elite Division — Catherine Lee of Minneapolis, Minn., had a time of 4:31.30 and Julie Hull of Farmington, Minn., was just behind her in 4:31.41.

I've got no problem with being "chick'd," but I do have an issue being beaten by cheaters.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

 

As for the article I like "I didn’t taper for the race. I was using it just as a training race because I’m not rested for it and I’m just using it as training".... Ya that is how I describe 56 miles at 23.8 MPH, but may be we have a little C-Well brewing here.

Another reason I love OW ocean swims, god I hate lakes, those things creep me out too much shit and sludge. The worst are cedar water lakes, reddish brown and murky , always waiting to hit an old submerged washer and dryer.

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___________________________________________________
I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.

Scott, I would like to hear Shannon's reply if you would be so kind to post it. I am considering an email to them myself. I think they should know so that they can try to improve the race. Also, I am glad to see that even in the midst of complaints people still have several good comments about HFP.

As to the drafting. I am completely suprised that this one large draft group got around to so many people. It sounds exactly like the group that went over top of me. One classic moment came when one of the women hanging onto the back of that group slowed to get water at an aid station. I rode through that particular aid station. She realized she was getting left and busted her hump to get back to the back of the train where life was easy again. I saw her later on the run. She was a lap behind me and it gave me satisfaction to no end.

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

Just for clarification this was Lake Michigan. It is not some dingy, stagnant inland lake. It is as close to the Ocean as we get around here.

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

Me too - I don't think I will be coming back next year. As the non-winning women's winner (hey, at least I got to break the tape), I was dismayed to see the times posted on the bike by the other ladies. Whether they drafted on purpose or not, riding behind & passing tons of other cyclists is a huge advantage. It was fairly isolate on the course when I rode... a few groups of men, but nothing much. Why have an elite/pro wave when they just pick winners from the AGs? And the real pisser is that they only had size L shirts at 3:30 when I picked up my packet ;) At least the almond kringle I brought back from Racine is excellent.

I talked to Shannon at the bike check in and mentioned that. He said he would be back in the Ohio office by Wednesday morning and contact them via email. It appears they are going to have a reorder or something like that. Normally I would not care, but the shirt is white technical which I like during summer runs. Last years was black and I have doubts whether I will ever wear that as I mostly run in the dark or in the heat of the sun both of which are not conducive to dark colors obviously for different reasons. In the winter I wear long-sleeve.

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Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

Thank you for posting your side of the story.

Congratulations on going to qualifying for kona at IMWI last year where you rode a 5:53. WIth the way you rode yesterday, I bet you can probably go a 5:20 or faster at Kona this year and probably crack 10 hours. The way you rode and ran I fully expect that you will be in contention for the amatuer WC title (last years winner was 9:55)

Last year I went a 9:46 at IMWI, and you outsplit me on the bike yesterday by 2 minutes - so I think you definately have a good shot.


Maybe that puts our perspective a little in perspective.


P.S. It's interesting that I didn't see a similar time drop on the bike from other contestants at NO 70.3...unless you are referring to a different race.

Seriously though - good luck at Kona - it is a great experience.

I sat up and let the whole pack that you were mixed up in ride past. So yes, it was possible not to ride in a pack. I hung well off the back, and kept pace, eventually repassing the whole pack the last 6 miles on the shot back into T2 as a few turns broke up the draftfest. I may have lost :30 to 1:00 off my bike time, but I rode it legally.

I was the guy in the green jersey on the Felt cursing at the whole pack when it blew past, 3 wide, with 1/2 a bike length between wheels at about mile 40'ish.

I have no doubt that you're a strong rider and you're definitely a stronger runner than I am. But to claim that drafting was unavoidable is a cop out. You don't have free reign to ride the pace you want to ride at all times. There are rules that have to be obeyed, about dropping back, etc. I had a guy edge past my wheel at the bottom of a hill and then slow on the climb. I had to slow down a lot more than I wanted to drop back enough before repassing, but that's the rules that I agreed to follow when I signed up for the race.

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I ride Felt.

I started the bike in 7th place in the first wave. I shit you not, I saw the draft marshal 5 times on the bike and only saw 4 other athletes on their bikes! In the entire 56 miles!! Why the hell were they watching me? Most of the race I didn't even see anybody in front of me!!

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"I've sold my soul to Ironman."

I originally interpreted the article as "I decided not to race elite this year because I wanted to have some of the fun drafting." And now you say that there was now way that you couldn't draft? Yes there was, you could have and should have raced elite, or done as coredump did and sat up. I also saw you blatantly drafting in a pack. Maybe you passed a couple packs, but you definitely weren't passing anyone when I saw you. Next time you feel like drafting in a race, maybe you shouldn't forget that you have your last name in capital letters across your ass.

Isn't Sarah Demerly part of that same tri team? That figures.

Well this is very rich coming from someone who was smack in the middle of a pack when he passed me (a chick).

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Tweet WattsUpKarin Blargh

PinkCrush 1 : swimfan 0

As a side note to this - I finally understand and tend to agree with the whole seperate start for Pros/elite at IM. Should just make it a Pro/IM slot contenders instead...

I was just a few spots back from you (which I'm really proud of!) and agree with you totally. I am sending an email as well.

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"I've sold my soul to Ironman."

Were you wearing a red Gear West top yesterday? If so - congrats on a great race! I could see you up the road for most of the bike - finally caught up around mile 45 (Litespeed Saber/white Team Magellan top). You rode strong and clean all day. Oh yeah - they don't just pick AG winners for the elite wave - I was in it, and haven't won crap there. I chose to race master's elite in order to avoid all the drafting in the AG wave - worked out perfectly, as we had open quiet roads all day, and the marshalls were all over the front of the race. No wonder the MOP and AG waves were such a cluster out there. Apparently, the motorcycles rolled in with the top 25 or so, and called it a day.

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_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

Great on you for posting. I was there and saw much of the race (from ground zero) and was helping the Dismount area where every single person who went past the line got 4min.

Now, what I think that MANY people here are not looking at is the fact that the RD and HFC cant, let alone the fact that it is not their job to "prevent" drafting. That job is up to us - each of us on the course, and the USAT to enforce. People are going to ride how they are going to ride and the USAT needs to put some meat into the breaking of rules.

After the race yesterday the typical AG joke was (and I heard this more than once) - "Just take 4min off your time to get your real time". I was dumbfounded and did speak with one woman who said this. I was near the First Aid station when they made the announcement that they were waiting on the USAT to give the over all results due to the numbers. There was a group sigh as folks complained there were too many given. I said to one woman who was complaining that "maybe the AG's should learn to follow rules and they would not need to worry about it" - her comment was "I was not here to race.....so, why was she there? (No I dont want an answer)

The best thing is that people dont want to go to smaller races, they want everything handed to them on a platter...but then complain about drafting and this and that every other thing.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

That wasn't me, but rather the woman who crossed the finish line 2nd. We're both from the same area and have trained together on occasion. She's a great biker and I have no doubt she rode clean too.

So you did draft(cheat), just kept it within your ability to justify. Cool, thanks for coming clean.

Dave Luscan
www.endorphinfitness.com

Sorry 'bout that - I thought I had the top 5 or so ladies figured out until I saw the results. Well done out there, nonetheless!

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_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

So you both cheated and broke the yellow line rule? I'm impressed.

The only way you couldn't not draft is if the rules meant nothing to you. Apparently, they don't.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

This was my second tri and first 1/2 ironman.

Acording to my GPS, I swam .99 miles, which was from starting area on the beach, to just past the yellow exit bouy (and no, I can't swim straight, so most people probably swam less).

I held back a bit on the first half of the bike, then started to push it. Got passed by the pack maybe around mile 35 - 40. I was able to pass everyone back on a couple of the small rollers out there, but then got swallowed back up as the pack went coasting by on the flats. Finally I just gave up and decided to try to save my legs for the run. I guess I will just have to train harder so I can stay out in front of everyone next time. In addition to the performance implications, there are also safty concerns. I saw a guy get a flat, get off his bike (in the middle of the lane) only to be clipped by someone's handlebar as they went by, and almost took out the whole group.

I saw the draft marshal finally catch up to the group on Main street and hang with them for awhile, but I don't know if they gave out any penalities. The posted results online don't break out penalities, which is unfortunate. I was really expecting to see more marshals out on the course based on a previous post here on ST, but I think I only saw maybe 2 different marshals a couple of times each. My suggestion would be to focus on the second half of the race, and focus around the the riders looking to finish between 2:20 and 2:30, as that seems to be were a large concentration of people were.

My GPS/watch time was 4:49:XX and my posted result time was 4:48:59, so I guess I didn't have any of the timing issues other people were talking about.

I don't know if I'll be back. On the one hand, I have lots of family in Racine, so I got a place to stay, and they come out and cheer me on. On the other hand, the wife enjoys the shopping in door county a lot more ;)

How about focus on EVERYONE?

I mean, if these people were playing softball would they go from second to home (skipping third) as it is easier?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Four people were DQ'd for multiple penalties (all the officials sheet says).

I counted 168 penalties which (if my math is right) is 10% of the field.

"Normal" according to the official Dave is 5%. This does not count several people getting two penalties. Racine is a pretty competative race, so I kind of expect people to not give up their ground and space myself out accordingly.

4 + 8 2nd violation = 12 mins of penalties. I wish Ironman races would follow the same format only with bigger time penalties.

I heard two people protesting their penalties when I was there. 1) a female racer who lost a water bottle and didn't pick it up was complaining about her 4:00 and told the ref she would prefer the $500 Racine Co. fine for littering. 2) a guy who I saw drafting, blocking, riding on the left the entire frickin' race was complaining about his penalty... he was 27th in our age group and a big jack ass doing IM Wisconsin.

I thanked one of the Sherriff officers out there and he said he was pretty pissed at how much litter there was on the course. He said he was about to start writing tickets.

Ultimately, aren't we responsible for keeping the right distance? If you ride left or draft then don't complain.

Based on what I saw here... I hope the marshals are ready to write at IM Lou and IM Wisconsin.

But....those are not USAT races......

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I'm pretty sure they are. IMWI showed up on my USAT AG ranking last year...

That was SOOOOOO last year.

I asked the guy that was at the dismount line if he was going to be at IMLP next weekend. His comment was "The USAT decided to not sanction the Ironman brand races".....this was right from the red shirt official. I tried to google it and cant find info, nor is there any USAT info on IMLP, IMKY or IMooo sites.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Did you get chicked too? I know Adrienne, saw her race yesterday and she raced clean and fair. Its not like she hasn't beat pros before, because she has.

And yes this can race that speed on the bike, I've seen her do a lactate threshold test with power number that confirm what she is capable off.

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http://www.nunnsontherun.com

The point was about the officials and drafting. I am very aware that they are different.

I know I know....but still, these people are there "to make friends and have a good time" - we are the few here on ST - the masses could first off not give a shit what we think, or what the rules are.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

True true.

I think all racers (as part of their license) should have to volunteer, run a race or marshal in order to race once every so many years. It would change many people's behavior.

WTC races are USAT sanctioned but not officiated. They have their own rules and methods (yellow/red cards). The issue with their method - penalties are too short and they don't compound.

IE:
IM WI - 1st drafting penalty = 4 min, 2nd = 4 min for a total of 8:00 penalty. I would like to see 6:00 then 12 min (a la USAT ultra rules) for a total of 18 minutes. Bigger time loss.

Yellow cards get you a stop and go... no real effect other than pulling you out of the group on the road (Blocking is what I saw a lot racing @ IM Moo.)

I didn't get chicked. Did you not read her post? She basically admits to drafting and says that IF it happened, it wasn't her fault. She also admits to breaking the center line rule! Sure, she might be "capable" of that speed. But drafting sure makes it easier!

IM races ARE USAT races! They apply for rules changes from USAT and use penalty tents. Z

Easy solution to all of this. Door County!

And they had plenty of size mediums... :)

I am certain that none of these same issues will be a factor when Door county has another 1500 or so folks show up :-)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Touche. :)

At least the hills will help spread people out!

If you take advantage of the draft, sure it would make it easier, she did not. But when a pack(cheaters) swallows you up and you have to fight again and again to pass and race your own pace avoid even legal distance drafting you burn more advantage than you might have received when you got unavoidable trapped in a pack of 30 bikers.

If Adrienne made any mistakes Sunday it was not racing as a elite so there would be no questions or vindictive people jumping on her back and harassing her sucess.

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http://www.nunnsontherun.com

We'll have to check back after steelhead, Kona, Clearwater and Chicago.

I hope to be proved wrong, and see comprable performances at those races.

I agree with that part at least.

I'd expect a similar performance at Clearwater.

Did they contract Randy Fulton as the race director for this event?

I don't know who that is, but here's a pic of some drafters, I mean racers heading out. Must have been ridiculously crowded out on the course.

bad URL

Top 10 women 2008 SOR

1. Kelly Handel (USA) 4:23:18
2. Rebekah Witinok-Huber (USA) 4:27:31
3. Haley Cooper (USA) 4:32:20
4. Jackie Arendt (USA) 4:39:06 (went and did DOOR County HIM for 2009, did about the same time)
5. Lauren Jensen (AUS) 4:39:17 (went 4:32 for 2009)
6. Renee Damstra (USA) 4:41:27
7. Michelle Lanouette (USA) 4:41:32 (went 4:23 for 2009)
8. Maureen Conley (USA) 4:42:16
9. Jennifer Takata (USA) 4:42:50 (went 4:32 for 2009)
10. Michelle Hankinson (USA) 4:43:25

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since my wife and I train with 3 out of 4 of the women in bold print, I can tell you that the results are fishy.

We're chalking it up to the "Clearwater Effect."

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Matt Amman

Im pretty sure she wouldn't have gone 4:22 if she was in the elite wave.
Pressure's on now...

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"I've sold my soul to Ironman."

This is getting a little ridiculous now. That picture was taken right out of transition. I wouldn't be so quick to call people cheaters publicly because they came out of transition in a pack. With the large number of participants at this event there are bound to be large groups leaving transition at the same time. That doesn't mean they cheated.

I didn't know they were putting on a crit too

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Lol...I completely agree with you! That is a pic out of transition! How can they not be bunched up?

Here's my question for the ST people out there. I PR'd yesterday, but does it count with the swim the way it was? It was a USAT sanctioned event...but can I count that as my new PR? I didn't draft on the bike, but I did walk some on the swim...it was less then 3 feet deep...I was scoopping sand when I tried to swim! So new PR or no???

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

You set a new PR for the distance you raced on Sunday.

Congratulations.

You've likely not raced that distance before and likely never will again.

That's a response that most politicians would love! It answers the question without answering the question. I love ST!!!

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

There sure was lots of drafting. kinda stinks. I left before the penalties where handed out, do you know if they are listed someplace. website results don't seem to show them.

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KBW, I bonked

But, all four of these races are draft fests as well. So, if this woman admits she cheats at a race like SPOR that really matters nothing, then the odds are quite high she will cheat again at Steelhead and Clearwater where the stakes are higher and are also draft fests. My understanding Kona can also have drafting further up the line. I am less familiar with Chicago. The bottom line, regardless of VO2 max and her future race results, she admits to cheating at SPOR.

It answers the question exactly IMO.

As a co-captain of the team in question, we would like you all to know that in no way do we condone any form of cheating on our team, as we hold our athletes to much higher standards than most. We take care of issues in house, and will continue to do so. In the past, we have used disciplinary measures when there has been the least bit of questionable activity and will hold fast to that policy.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Is there any place online you can see who got what penalties? They don't show on the results page from the race organizer.


chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

It does answer the question. I will probably never race that distance again. I don't even know if I'll race that race again, Door County sounds like a good race to try. I was thinking that I would do Door County next year anyways. Racine is a nice race by most standards, whatever the distance. So what will I say if someone asks me what my PR in HIM is...ummm...I'll just change the subject :-)

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

I figure if you add 10 minutes and it was still a PR you PR-ed at HIM.

I am in the same situation. My swim was faster than last year because of had to redo the yellow buoy in 2008. My bike was slower, which was mostly me, but a little bit of trying to get spit out quickly after being swallowed whole by the packs. My run was much improved and that really is the reason I count it as a PR.

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Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

Just a question: is there anyway to know how many athletes won their Age Group at their first Ironman? Whatever the answer is, I bet this is a very very small club. RESPECT!

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Kiwami North America
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Last year it was appearant who got penalties because the Swim+Bike+Run+T1/2 times did not match the final time.

This year they appeared to have merged the penalties into the run - making them anonymous...

So if you run doesn't seem right - you may have got a penalty.

who in this thread won their AG at their first ironman?

I believe last year they tacted them onto the run time so your run time and run pace didn't jive = penalty. The final results that were posted on the board midafternoon had penalties in a seperate column.

or what he said.

That's what I suspected. Now, my question is what was my potential penalty for? How can I know what I may have done wrong so I can remember not to do it again?

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

It was only a four minute improvement. My swim and run was faster, but my bike was slower...all in all a four minute improvement. No big deal in the grand scheme of things. I plan to try new races next year. High Cliff, Door County, maybe travel for one like Steel Head??? Variety is the spice of life and I need some flavor added to my race schedule. And since I've vowed to take next year off from IM, I'll be able to do more HIM training and make this year's time a non-issue...hopefully! Has anyone heard a RR about Dorr County? I haven't seen anything.

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

best advice would be to email hfp and ask.

They did have the penalties posted yesterday. They were taped to the side of the tent where we ate. There was about 3 and half pages of penalties. If you look at last years results, the times that were in BOLD numbers were the ones that had been penalized. I know this because I got a four minute penalty for going outside the cones when I passed a biker. It was a "Traffic Violation"...but at least I didn't draft or block!

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________________________________________________________________________
It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

Can someone find that USAT rule that says that if you win your age group at your first Ironman you can then cheat at subsequent races and not get penalized?

Look anyone who claims there wasn't drafting out there is delusional - I think if people want to clear their names they should put up power files of the race and let people think what they want to think. As for the above picture yes it is out of transition and a single picture doesn't even prove drafting, you need 60 seconds of video I would say. Here is picture that is not from the transition. It is all about intent in my opinion, if you are out there and even question whether you are drafting then you are probably drafting. As for crossing a yellow line, USAT officials make exceptions all the time, they won't give you a "positioning" call for riding a little bit to the left if the surface on the far right is absolutely junk and potentially dangerous, likewise if you cross the line into the other lane because you are passing a pack then I don't really see the big deal in this. Also USAT usually doesn't give you a drafting call when you can't pass a person in 15 seconds on a 12% grade.


How man triangles... I mean drafters do you see?

They look a little dumbfounded being caught on film! I would have at least smiled :-)

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

this was posted sometime today. it has an additional penalty column just to the left of the final time.

http://premierraces.com/...cineHalfOverall.html

Well, that confirms it. Now if I knew why. Guess I will inquire with the race director.

chris

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

I've seen Lauren lose to Adrienne a couple times earlier this year. So believe me it is possible. Just accept the fact that you got smashed by a girl. It's ok...keep telling yourself what you need to so you feel better about yourself. Stop wasting time on here and go train. It's obvious you need to.

Where?

Show me results.

N.O. was in April, and a much tougher course than Racine. I am sure this female overall winner rode outside 3 times before racing since she is from IL. Racine was perfect conditions...no wind, no heat, and she rode hard. So maybe she had a breakout day. It is possible.

What I found of overlap for the last 12 months:

Adrienne NO 70.3 - 33/2:39/1:42
Lauren NO 70.3 - 29/2:31/1:44

IMWI 08
Adrienne - 1:06/5:56/4:04
Lauren - 55/5:28/3:37

Some indoor races that Lauren shows up for because there is prize money. Adrienne beat her in 3 out of 4 races.

I will be the first to go on record as saying that I would get "Chicked" by either one of these women, and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

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It's not how many years you have left in life, it's how much life you have left in your years!

Fact is we could do this all day long with any number of participants from yesterday and it serves no purpose then to make people angry and call people out. That isn't my intention with this (or maybe that is my intention who knows), but another fact is that lot of folks have times that are completely inconsistant relative to previous performances - even if you adjust for course difficulty.


There was some blatant cheating going on yesterday and no one can deny that.

Indoor triathlons? With a pool swim and biked on Precor stationary bikes?? And 10 minutes between the swim and the bike and 5 between the bike and the run? Well certainly that proves who's faster as long distance triathlon racing...

Maybe I got lost in the 100 posts you have put into this thread. What point are you trying to make. Are you mad that Adrienne won the race? Are you jealous that a girl went a 4:22? Are you upset that you saw her draft off of other people? Wait, did you see her draft off of other people?

You can't compare the times in this race to previous years. The swim was different/bike was different.

You want to compare Lauren's IM times to Adrienne's...good for you. What does that prove? Lauren is like 45 years old. Did it occur to you that she may be slowing down and Adrienne is speeding up.

i just wanted to point out that using an indoor triathlon as an indicator of how fast someone is is the BIGGEST CROCK OF SHIT i have ever heard.

i did a few this winter to break things up. they are fun, but not an any way an indicaotr of how people will do outside. i got beat on the bike by a 12 year old kid spinning 135 rpms the whole time.

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____________________________________________________________
Link to my photography
http://davidsavoiephotography.blogspot.com/
http://davidsavoiesports.blogspot.com/

I am not jealous a girl went a 4:22. I went a 4:16, sure gender adjusted she beat me - that's not the point.

The point is her performance is a fair bit inconsistant with races she did just a few weeks ago, and hugely inconsistant with performances within the last 12 months. It is also highly inconsistant with times from World Class ladies on this course. And there are many other examples of this in the field from yesterday (men and women)

Swim times vary based on course accuracy - bike times vary based on course difficulty, but based on the really fast people (DKT, Luke Bell, Chris Lieto, etc) you can "adjust" those, but are generally consistant for people barring flats - as people tend to bike the same intelligent or retarded way every time - it's the runs that vary tremoundously in my experience and more importantly are harder to identify as inconsistant performances.

Did it also occur to you to look at some of Laurens past results - while she is getting older her times have been eseentially the same for the past 5 years, in fact they are actually trending downward again as she is staying healthier and can run more again.

Finally yes the bike was different, but it was not *that* different.

God I wish I could pull myself away from arguing about this subject.

If you honestly don't know (and I say that kindly cuz it sounds like you don't) then I would suggest it is most likely that at some point you were overtaken (passed) by anywhere from 1-30 riders and you failed to fall back to an appropriate space (3 bike lengths?) within the appropriate time (15 seconds?).

From my experience this was the most difficult part of yesterday's ride.

It required you to be frustrated by the actions of others (ie. big group blatently going by) and yet stay within yourself and negatively affect your own efforts and rhythym (ie you had to physically slow down or in some cases sit up and stop pedaling) in order to remain within the rules. Like it or not regardless of how someone passes you once you are passed it becomes your responsibility to "fall back".

I really doubt it was drafting. I only saw the marshal once and I was pretty much all alone. They rode ahead a half mile and busted that big drafting pack at around 25 miles.

As I think back I could have screwed up coming to the dismount line. There were three lanes and at one point I was confused about which lane to be in. I went over to the right lane, but everyone else stayed in the middle. Maybe Chip could comment since he was there. I guess that could have been it. If so it is my fault for not inspecting every aspect of the course pre-race. It was my first time so the course was new. Some parts I didn't expect like having the middle traffic lane just for bikes. Either way lesson learned.

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"You can quit, and no one will care if you do. But you will know."
~John Collins, Ironman founder

Member HED Mafia

the dismount was gonna be my other choice. I am a bit surprised they were that big of sticklers about that given that you had to make a 90 degree turn to go into T2 after. I could have seen myself but for chance over rolling that by 6-12 inches

Your statements are riddled with errors... If you were at the front of the race you would know there was wind. I admit it wasn't awful and the conditions were favorable in general but you all seem to forget about the wind when you are in a pack. It was definitely there when you headed west and it was there when you headed north. I'm not picking a side here as I like both athletes but if you know anything about those indoor triathlons then there are two points you are failing to portray and I am in search of some fairness here.

1) Lauren Jensen was injured for those races or at least the 2nd one. She couldn't qualify for prize money because you have to compete in 3 of the 4 races. Why risk further injury?
2) I only see her completing two events with each splitting it 1:1. I could be wrong but she did only compete in 2 of the 4 correct? Plus what you fail to think about it that 1) the bikes are not calibrated correctly from bike to bike. What bike you get and how it performs matters significantly. Two, Adrienne is a big girl, Lauren Jensen is tiny. These races are geared towards bigger boys and girls as the computer doesn't take into account weight. The races should be based on watts/kg but unfortunately you can't translate that into miles to stack it up to the swim and run sections. And then there is the counting done by volunteers, and believe me there is some room for error on the bike as some volunteers don't take notice until after the bike spins down and you can squeak an extra 1/10 of a mile out. Then there are volunteers counting laps on a small track and short pool - ya that's always accurate too.

With all that being said, I'm excited to see them both continue to compete in triathlon but I would have preferred to see them in the same wave as it would have been close.

you have 15 secs to make the pass....

You have to fall back immediately once passed (not 15 secs) overtaken

Being Overtaken. When the leading edge of the front wheel of one cyclist passes beyond the front wheel of

another cyclist, the second cyclist has been "overtaken" within the meaning of these Rules. A cyclist who has

been overtaken bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul and must immediately move to the rear

and out of the drafting zone of the passing cyclist. The overtaken cyclist shall first move completely out of the

drafting zone of the other cyclist before attempting to re-pass the other cyclist.

thank you. Renews my statement that this was the most difficult part of yesterdays ride. In falling back to try to get out of the draft zone you would just keep getting passed and a new zone created......

Given the shear number of violations I highly doubt that the USAT officials were hammering people over positioning. Intent is most important and if you stay right on the wheel then you are going to get dinged but if you make an attempt to cooperate with the rule I'm sure you were fine. Believe me, there are people out there who deserved penalties and there are prob a few who actually don't deserve them but regardless it was ugly out there.

I think this is an important piece to this whole thread. There is the letter of the law (which is up to USAT to enforce) and then there is the spirit of the law (which is up to the individual to both know and abide by).

Bottom line is it is not enough to just "not get caught". At that point then attach the rear view mirror to your helmet. It is important to ride your own race. If you did then you are a triathlete. If you didn't you are something else. And you know which one you are...........

Not sure why you picked my thread for this response.....

BTW I do not, nor do I know anyone who, rides a White Cervelo with WC stripes and I know that I am not Fabian.

sorry - not insinuating that you were the P3 guy - seemed like most of this thread was about racine bike course gripes.

Bring your gripe to your own thread ;-)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Holy cow!!! Look at all of the penalties

jaretj

You sound like me a few years ago on ST... quick-tongued and stupid. After a few more embarrasing gaffs I gave up on cute stuff and hope you do too.

Adrienne S. won SOR for 2009. This plus a few other things that happened that day certainly livened the stories we told our friends and family that night at dinner.

As for the future:

We here on ST will now hold Adrienne S to a higher standard. We expect great things this year BECAUSE IF SHE DOESN'T we will never forget what happened on the 19th of July.

PS If you could take a minute please fill out username info so that we know who you are.

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Matt Amman

What - call folks out and let them know who we are? On the Internet? Is that what Al Gore intended?


My name is Chip Griffen and I suppose this message is okay.

And, I will also say that not only were the top womens results RIPE with drafters (cheaters) but the over all AG and even BOP AG were rotton with cheaters, drafters, and folks who just plain never read the rule book.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I think this race needs to chop up the waves so there are less people leaving T1. I think it's crazy when you have 0-29men go all at the same time that's a crap load of dudes hitting there bikes all at once.

Just to be clear, the woman who ended up in 3rd place (red top/QR TiPhoon) rode clean all day. I passed her early, she passed me back a couple miles later and put some time on me - I could see her up the road all day and finally closed the gap around mile 45. Unless she started cheating beyond that point, I'd swear in court that she rode honestly (and quite well, at that). Don't know her, but she's in one of the pix below...


http://journaltimesonline.com/shared-content/story_tools/slideshow/?id=238



Mike

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"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

I never said the woman in third, or any other specific woman for that matter. But, I was there - not on a bike and shoulder to shoulder with a USAT official most of the time I was there.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I realize you didn't make any specific accusations, but you did say that the 'top womens results were rife with cheaters' - just wanted to point out that I'm absolutely certain of at least one who has some integrity. In general, you're absolutely right - lots of suspect results. Seemed to me that the moto's were way too focused on the front end of the field where it was spread out nicely, and not on the MOP where it was groupetto after groupetto, separated by a few honest riders (this, from a very reliable eye witness out on the course).

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_________________________________________________
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

No one made that rule and I am making it: "You qualify for Kona at your first Ironman: RESPECT!"

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Kiwami North America
http://www.kiwamitri.com
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contact@kiwamitri.com
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Hate to say it but if she gets no respect here. Just because you get to qualify for Kona gives you no respect if you cheat in other races. If she drafted in SOR who is to say she isn't drafting in others and if she is breaking the draft rule what stops her at breaking others. *cough* drug test? *cough*. All i'm going to say is that she gets to go to kona! GREAT! But that gives her NO respect or RIGHT to CHEAT in other races.

That attitude is part of the reason why drafting has became common at many IM qualifiers and has spread to many other long distance tris. How dare you question me if I have qualified for Kona!

I have no doubt that anyone who has qualified for Kona has worked hard and smart and has talent, but that's not the end of the story for me.

Seriously, that's your rule?????????

just so you know if you are trying to help/defend............ it's not helping. Really it's not........

I still don't know who won their age group at their first IM...

Hey buddy don't confuse me with the facts: RESPECT!!!

:-)

to change directions a little:

one of the things I find kinda sad about this whole situation/thread:

it has all overshadowed what I am assuming is a big day and accomplishment for Blake Becker. I've only seen him mentioned once, in passing, by you.

Maybe somebody (hint hint) who knows him and raced against him Sunday (hint hint) should start a seperate thread (hint hint) to give him some props. So we can move on to something good that happened on Sunday.

Just a thought

There was one dude at IMAZ back in 07 or 08.

that maybe, but Andre was talking like somebody in this thread had.

Well I won't start another thread on behalf of Blake's fine performance but I will say kudos on this thread.

The guy was awesome this weekend (and frankly this year)! I was hoping to push him along at an upcoming race (Pleasant Prairie) but after what I saw this weekend, he's untouchable for us FOP age groupers. It was bit painful to watch him race in years past when he was suffering through those 35 hr training weeks, but since he cut down the volume this year he is a frickin' rocketship. Again, just an amazing race for him.

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Matt Amman

I agree that Blake Becker was smoking it out there. Someone yelled looking good and I thought they were talking to me so I yelled thanks, then I looked behind and there is Blake. I said woops, I guess they were talking to you and he had some nice words for me. Congrats on the win.

Yeah, when he passed me on the run, I was impressed.

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Twitter @achtervolger

Not sure if this is true but I also heard he had some mechanical problem out on the bike and he still crushed it.

I haven't been to journalism school but hey I at least attempt to check the facts before posting. Sure I may "suggest" something here and there, but usually I indicate in some way that it is JUST a "suggestion". The facts however speak for themselves. Adrienne is a tremendous athlete and only getting better. I can see her getting strong enough to be a threat some day in Kona however that doesn't get around some of the errors posted by various people including her own coach who pens under the name "IronSwimmer". For others, fact is Adrienne did qualify for Kona at her first IM (IMMOO 08) but she did get it thru a roll-down spot, the only roll-down spot of the day and she definitely did not win her age-group her first time out. Blake performed like a rockstar yesterday and I would love to see him walk away with an Ironman Wisconsin victory in September.

This is ST and we have made our judgement.....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Gee, I didn't see that one coming at all.

Ti, I can't confirm whether Elite Am Female 1 and 2 were clean, mostly because they were so friggin' far in front of me, but my guess is that they were. I can confirm that Aunt Em is super-fast, a friend and teammate. I happen to be married to the lady in red and can confirm that on most of our training rides, if she were to have a rear-view mirror on her bike, would see me as only a tiny spec.

Dude...hope your foot is doing better! The story reminded me of what Conrad Stoltz did last month!

http://www.conradstoltz.com/...a-richmond/#more-929

and the aftermath

http://www.conradstoltz.com/...ter-xterra-richmond/

I have gotten to know Adrienne over the past few years that she has been training for triathlons. That is right folks, she just started doing triathlons two years ago so there is going to be big improvements each race. She is one of the most kind hearted people that I know and her big smile can be very contagious as she is just out in the world trying to make it a better place. She is a yoga instructor who is trying to help people find their real self and get away from the BS and judgement from people in our society. Most of you haters on this blog could use some yoga as you obviously have some pent up anger about life.

She organized a spin a thon at her yoga studio earlier this year to raise money for the Blazeman foundation out of the goodness of her heart. If you want to find out what kind of person she is, ask Blazeman's dad, Robert Blais, and he will tell you how good hearted she is. She has personally taken an interest in the Blazeman foundation and is going to race in honor of Blazeman at Kona this year. If you don't know who Blazeman is then you shouldn't even be doing triathlons as you don't even know the history of the sport.

The fact that people are out there claiming she cheated is ridicoulous. She was using Racine as a training race for Kona and that is why she didn't sign up in the elite group b/c she didn't taper at all and thought she may race tired. She woke up Sunday morning feeling amazing and ended up having the best race of her short career. Racine wasn't her A race as she will be doing Kona and Clearwater so she wouldn't cheat to win the race. All you haters just can't handle that she is getting really good and are losing to a better athlete.

I had a conversation with her about her post on here and her words are being taken out of context. What she was trying to say was there may have been a few times, which were literally only for a few seconds, where she caught a draft as she was riding through people. As triathletes you should all understand that for a split second this happens once in awhile as it is hard to avoid when passing other riders especially if those riders can't keep up with the pack and are blocking the road. If you claim that there wasn't a few seconds where you felt a draft on Sunday, then you are lying to yourself b/c the course wasn't wide enough where this wouldn't happen for a few seconds. There was never a point in time where she was doing anything illegal and if you knew her as well as I do you would realize she wouldn't be okay with winning a race unethically. She is too much of a good person to accept a win that isn't real. If you were out riding on Sunday you should realize that there were 250 drafting penalties handed out and she didn't receive one of them. The race officials were very strict handing out penalties and with 250 handed out it is obvious they were on watch. She shouldn't need to apologize for anything b/c it was a well run race and the race officials were watching closely and she told me she saw them out on the course a lot and never once did they write her up. If you have a problem with this then talk to the race director and have them staff more officials. But do you really need more officials if 250 penalties were handed out.

Adrienne did a 2:33 on the bike in steelhead last year when she wasn't even trained well. Doing a 2:22 on the bike in Racine is not a far stretch at all. Look at all the other girls bike times as they aren't far off from hers at all and those were all PRs for them by 30 minutes or more. Did any of you haters ever think that the conditions might have been ideal that day with cooler temps and the wind blowing with the riders. The only reason the finger is being pointed at her is because she won. Adrienne trains her ass off and to have all you haters out there accusing her of cheating is disgusting. If you knew Adrienne personally you wouldn't be making these claims and you would congratulate her on her big victory b/c it was well deserved.

I just can't wait until she kicks some serious booty in Steelhead, Kona, and Clearwater b/c she is in way better shape than last year, which was her first full year of doing triathlons. You will be reading about her a lot this year so get used to it. I am sure the haters are going to claim that Steelhead, Kona, and Clearwater are draft fests as well. To all you haters and jealous bloggers, maybe you should try another sport as it apparently makes you miserable to watch the sucess of other athletes. Maybe one day you will be good enough to have other athletes blog about you in jealous rage. Probably not though as you are too busy on this forum and not out training like the real athletes.

Thanks U.P...it is feeling better. Hopefully, that will be the longest T1 time in my tri career. The worst thing about my foot is that I couldnt water ski this weekend. My 6 stitches seem like a paper cut compared to Stoltz's gash.

Thanks for cheering!! Man, that awards area was such a cluster.

I hope you are correct, and if you are i'll be the first to apologize.

She herself said she crossed the centerline to pass: that is doing something illegal. And dumb. It shows a certain disregard for rules that are established for the safety of all participants, and a certain "me first" attitude.

I guess we should cut her some slack as she is apparently still a newby and can't differentiate between drafting and legally overtaking. Her initial post was pretty clear that she felt she had done something wrong ("can't help but..."), but what you describe is called "smart racing".

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Mideast Elite would like to thank all of the dedicated individuals who have provided much pertinent information in regards to some recent actions by a extremely small portion of our athletes.We have taken the unusual steps to seek out and interview a large number of individuals having first hand knowledge of the events that have recently transpired. We want to ensure the triathlon community that we are dealing with matters and will be fair in our solutions. Our team is very rare in that we REQUIRE all team members to sign a Code of Ethics for inclusion in our stellar group of athletes, and speed is no substitute for character. We stand steadfast in our support of hard, ethical and legal racing for ALL members flying our colors, and will stand for nothing less than the utmost in racing fair and with integrity and class. We apologize if some have failed to stand up to our high standards. We are finalizing our internal investigation, as that is the least we can do in our unwavering support of our loved sport and also to our many loyal and dedicated sponsors and supporters, who are among the best in the business. We are moving forward with our ideals of leading by example. Join us in the mission to bring the sport back to where it needs to be.

Gary
Proud member of Mideast Team Elite.
http://www.mideastelite.com

1. Steelhead last year was a duathlon. See this thread about that:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

2. Good, we here on ST can't wait. Keep us updated. We love to listen to bragging, it's so vogue.

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Matt Amman

So what? Is TME going to "suspend" a person from a team, with out an official call from the USAT or in the race results? If a rider claims to have put down a clean race and stands by it...to hell with a "team". If a person is that gifted to win a race like SORT I am quite certain that with out official red marks next to the name it wont be too hard to get a sponsor. Tri is not a "team" sport on race day anyway. A person could quit a team, or a team could ask a person to not wear their shirt - but really there is no teeth to anything and neither has anything really to lose.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I appreciate your comments Chip, but our team offers MUCH more than simple discounts. And as most of these people need to realize, the sport is much bigger than the individuals. As far as USAT and RDs, we have taken our own course, as they seem to be incapable and incompetent when it comes to anything more than cashing our checks. You would not believe the stories I could tell about certain people in our sport......

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

And, once again I am back to a database that I think the USAT owes us, and the sport that would track such things......

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

You are missing my point....as they currently exist and due to their director, they ARE the problem, not the solution. They have no interest at this time in your quest. They drum to their own beat and change rules as they work for them. If these race directors have the balls to police their own event, we don't even need USAT, as you have well found out. The pressure needs to be put on the RD and make them put some teeth in the rules at their events. If you build it, they will come.

I guess I am coming in late here, but...

#1 Don't anybody knock indoor tri winners. They are awesome!! There are no words to describe the guy who wins MITCS every year!!
#2 Why so much focus on this one woman? Like all of us there, she went out to do her best. I've been in the sport for 17 years and used to participate in drafting rants on RST, but I've never seen an attack like this. She is an up and coming talent, no doubt. We in the midwest should be proud to have her.
#3 HFP and every event group does everything to make their events as best as possible with what that have to work with. It is an impossible task.
#4 She came close to beating me. Most of the margin was on the swim. That really got to me on a lot of levels, but I'm over it.
#5 It was a super fast day. I did a 2:18 bike with very limited training. That is my "in shape" time. (and I was alone almost the whole time since I was in top 5 of elite wave during the bike, although Blake's wake did extend for about 3 miles so I got a slight pull)

I hope she gets past this stuff quickly because I want to see her continue to get better.

-Greg Thompson

I have never singled out anyone on this or any other thread...my posts other than a reply to Gary have been "in general" - just wanted to be clear on that.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Chip, the only way I know how to post is to reply to the last post. I was commenting on the whole thread that I skimmed through...

It's clear that many eyes will be watching results for a long time. Perhaps anyone who breaks the rules make their own punishment by having to continually improve those standards and justify their previous results. Could be a bad place to be........

You realize Steelhead bike was at least 2 miles short last year, right? Assuming a pace of 21.5mph, you can add almost 6 minutes to that time. So her time would have been almost 2:40.

alternatively it could provide great motivation.

only time will tell.

True. But when the monkey is on your own back and there are doubts, it's a sad place to be.

I was not at this race, but do know what it is like to be caught in small packs usually because age group men refuse to let a girl pass. I am a slower swimmer and stronger biker so I am constantly fightining the "age group guys". It sucks and it is super frustrating. I pass them and then they see me pass them and then they lay out a surge to repass me and then they slow down enough that I have to brake. Not only that, but they'll bring 5 guys with them so I have to brake to get behind all of them! It is ridiculous and the reason why I don't do many local races anymore. It is becoming a huge problem as age group girls are getting faster and it makes for a very torturous bike leg, no matter what the distance of the race. Adrienne is an extremely talented girl and she deserves every bit of this win. It is not her fault, but that of the race organizers for not allowing enough time between heats to accomodate the bike course traffic.
I will say, that I do brake and follow the rules, but it makes for a very nasty attitude on my part and this growing problem (of people not understanding the rules) needs to be addressed by USAT. I shouldn't have to skip out on my favorite local events because I don't want to be stressed out on the bike course.
In addition, it is ridiculous that you all have nothing better to do than to take something away from this girl who obviously trains her ass off and is very talented. Yes, she should have braked to get out of the packs...but I think a simple time penalty would do, not this tramautic hurrassment by her peers. If you have a problem, it should be addressed only to the race director who can then make the appropriate course changes for next year.
Adrienne, you rock girl and good luck with the rest of your season. There are tons of people on your side of this and we'll be cheering for you all the way through Kona.

ITU solved this issue a long time ago, just allow drafting, since it is happening anyways.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You do know that Gary is a member of her team yes? This will be the first comment I put in this thread about Adrienne.....

SHE ADMITTED SHE DRAFTED AT TIMES

Now, do I think that the RD should do what it takes to get more open road and or a single loop bike? Sure I do.

Do I think that the USAT does a terrible job with penalties and how they are handled? Sure I do.

Do I think that far too many folks just dont care to follow the rules? Yep.

Now, granted there was no money at SORT this year for prizes....it is what it is. But, I think that we can all rest assured that if there was some coin on the table there would be some other top finishers screaming out their lungs on a soap box. While I understand how and why you and other top women get stuck in the bafoonary of the MOP men getting their testosterone fix trying to not be "chicked" on the bike...I guess I would not have posted on a public forum about it. It sometimes is not what you say, it is how you say it. For instance - she "could" have said "at times there were packs of men that overtook and surrounded me, it was terrible to see the rules so blatantly broken". I would quote her directly but it seems all of her replies to this thread are gone...

And good on you for defending your friend. It is what it is and the situation is only going to get worse if we as participants and those of us who are RD's let the rules slide for anyone on the course - especially the MOP and BOP folks who DO alter the results and even more so on multi-loop courses.



I can see into the future....and I see coming up many threads about rampant drafting and a slug fest swim at IMLP this Sunday......

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

A very wise, and intelligent reply, and a true solution to the issue. If the RD's faced the issues and spread them out, USAT puts teeth in the rules and makes it not worth the risk, our issue is GREATLY reduced. The simple fact is that many fail at policing themselves or this discussion is moot. As with society now days, we have to control those who won't control themselves. We need to bring back some responsibility, but I doubt I'll see that in my lifetime. Society's lack of desire in making everyone accountable has taken away our freedoms where we need these restrictions. When I started in tri, these rules were seldom enforced, because it was a given that you competed the correct way. I' sad to see our team member and team caught up in this, as no one is winning here. That said, talent will eventually rise to the top.

Hi Dave. Good to hear from you, but I can't go that far. I'm an old purist.
glad life is good with you.

Yep, I understand, but when will the bitching ever end on this? For lots of reasons, never, so at least throwing in the towel solves the issue once and for all, rather than
kidding ourselves it will EVER be "fixed".

Still hoping some smart RD will see the opportunity and start a "draft legal" event. I would sign up in a second! (I still get dropped by the strong bikers, so it would not
change my race at all. :o( )

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The problem is we would also have to get rid of aerobars....imagine the pile ups!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Na, we all do our draft legal race at the tfrracing.com goldenstate with aerobars, and never had an issue. So easy to find all the reasons it "cannot" work.
But takes a RD leader to have the guts to try a "real" solution based on the bias that most "triathletes" are really duathletes. :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've ridden with way too many inexperienced riders in my day to wish that on myself. I'll go to Xterra first.
Integrity used to matter.

I quoted her here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=2420516#2420516

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Is the girl we are talking about the one in the white suit?

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"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK

And you know Speedygirl is a member of their team also ;-)

They all need to drop her and focus on the over all issue...she played the game that every other person was playing.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I'm replying to your post on the first page of this thread - - about the 2:39 bike improving to 2:21 or whatever. I'm not reading the rest of the thread because I find they really de-volve after about 25 posts so forgive me if this was addressed and answered (and forgive me if you actually bore witness to something in regards to this particular athlete)...but FWIW (and I have not seen the Racine results nor did I participate this year but I have raced it twice in the past and I did do NO 70.3) - - NO 70.3 bike was HARD. It was F'in WINDY. Forget the humidity factor too. I don't think there is enough info to draw a conclusion based on the time alone. I did my worst half iron bike split ever at New Orleans - - 20 minutes slower than what I can do untrained at Racine. Just a thought.

Racine had hard conditions too. No wind, overcast, cool temp, and no hills.

To complain about the logistics of a race is one thing, but to call out someone by name is nothing short of BS and sour grapes from lesser athletes (and I use that term loosely for those people). I’ve never raced Racine, but hear from others that it’s very difficult to not unintentionally draft during the bike at some time or another while trying to pass others.

Too all of you calling out Adrienne Saeger and comparing her race results from last year at IMWI (her 2nd full year doing TRIs and her first IM)) and her races from this spring (NO 70.3) with last Sundays Racine race shows what jealous Tools you all are. Forget that weather conditions (wind, heat, humidity) and course differences play a role in times from one race to another. I know Adrienne personally and know how much integrity she has and know what a tremendous work ethic she has and the amount/quality of her workouts this spring/summer and am not surprised at her increased speed on the bike and run. Forgetting the fact that she is an outstanding athlete. If you’d taken the time to follow her results from more recent races (REV3 – won her age group, 3rd overall non-Pro women’s), you’d also not be surprised at her great performance last Sunday.

Kurt Martin

Actually we're questioning the times of the females in the Top 10, primarily the AG'ers.

Because Adrienne is at the top we're just using her as the example. The second place finisher is icing on the cake for our points.

Michelle Lanouette:
SOR 2009 4:23
SOR 2008 4:4X (IMWI Kona slot winner, maybe age group winner)
SOR 2007 4:4X (IM Kona)
SOR 2006 not sure, but somewhere in the 4:4X (IM WI age group winner and FIRST AMATEUR Finisher with 3:2X marathon split)

THEN BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! goes a 4:23 at SOR 2009 with Adrienne Saeger slipping in at 4:22. Doubtful that either could produce that without a short swim and drafting (unintentionally).

(edited to please Swimfan)

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Matt Amman

Actually we're calling out all the females in the Top 10.
Are you serious? Come on!
So if she races same race a year ago 30 minutes slower does it really mean she is drafting or cheating?

Yes, there are. The words would be GREG THOMPSON!!
;-)..He's a stud

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

I'm amazed that people continued to vouch for Adrienne as if they have actually watched her out there on the bike course. Did you people actually in fact watch the race? And what is up with Adrienne deleting her post, if I remember correctly she pretty much admitted it??? And people claim she wasn't drafting because she didn't get a penalty - oh yea, that is how life works, people always get caught???? I'm not saying she was drafting, but look at the following:

...Ok before we start can well at least agree that white swimsuit girl was drafting? This would be from simple visual inspection of that photo of her tucked in with a bunch of riders????

...And

If we speculate about Adrienne and a handful of other 0-34s. It seems that they all went out before the Male 40-44 group and had just enough time to get out of the water and onto their bikes before the biggest draft pack (speculating based on times) in history started rolling down the roads like a snowball picking up more and more riders. May be Adrienne was just a victim, but my guess is she participated and if she did draft then what is to say she hasn't done this at WI, Steelhead, NO 70.3 and any other big races where she could just get "lost in the pack"? Take a look at her smaller races or performances in elite waves

2009-06-28 - Hy-Vee Triathlon - 40K in 1:08:36 or 21.7 MPH
2009-06-14 - Naperville Women's Only Sprint - 14.16 miles she averaged 23.36MPH
2009-06-07 - REV3 - 56MI in 2:49:47 or 19.8 MPH (Adrienne went 5:09 to CARFRAE's 4:27)

Ya it makes a lot of sense that she went 56MI @ Racine @ 23.8 MPH

More likely she got hooked up with

M40-44 Michael Stec, Eligio Pimentel, Peter Conley, and Marc Robertson who all rolled in together at about 2:44:50. With an AG adjusted time (+3 mins) of ~2:47:50 versus Adrienne's ~2:48:30. Looking at it all I would guess Peter Conley was the strongest rider of the bunch and did the most pulling. Somewhere thru the ride this group of 4 either pulled away from the main group of 30, a motorbike broke it up, or the other riders just casually fell off one by one. Either way I would give those top girls in 0-34 +10 mins on the bike at least. Also, it appears that Adrienne not only after have a record setting bike split and "HAMMERING" away had the freshest running legs of her life with a 1/2 marathon only ~1min greater than her stand-alone 1/2 marathon time. Seems odd, my experience with hammering hard usually results in a poor run but a great bike. In this case it was a great bike and a great run.

Whether it was conscious drafting or just getting sucked into the crowds there is much room for improvement in the race. You should not be able to win the race out of age group - it is just a different race.

That seems like a plausible explanation. Interestingly, if you look at the women who raced Elite and Elite Masters, the bike splits seem much more in line with past performances. Especially since a few of those women have raced against each other both this year and in years past.

Hey Kurt,

What makes you a tool is registering today and calling out a bunch of people as tools. Why not hang around for a couple of months, add something to the discussion and then have an opinion. Sorry, could care less but it looks really really bad for your girl. You have zero credibility round here, can't say the same for some calling her out.

Ron, you had some suspicious results at MITCS. You were 20th in one race and 3rd in the last one? Seriously, how can a 50 year old place that high? I saw you riding in a group of 12 bikes close together for the whole ride.

must have been blocking the fans so other people overheated.

what is your relationship to the user sppnet?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Damn..I'm busted.
If you must know, it's called geezerEPO.

The greatest thing since Gary Hall's Sr's liquid O2.
It goes down great with Metamucil

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

spending time on a blog gives your cred? Whatever.

Not sure where you came up with this magical "250" number. There were far fewer penalties in total than that, and even fewer of those were drafting penalties. If you look at the elite results, not a single one was for drafting. They were all for abandoned equipment - likely either water bottles or swim caps.


http://www.hfpracing.com/...d_Referee_Report.pdf



As others have pointed out, Steelhead was a duathlon, and had a short course. Adrienne had the 49th fastest female bike split, so her 2:33 there in no way is comparable to anything like she did at SOR. And yes, there was tons of drafting in the AG races there too! And there will be again this year there and at Clearwater.

You earn credibility. If you do not know anyone at a party but walk in and declare very loudly that everyone is an asshole it is hard to take you seriously. Just like in any "room" some people have a lot of credibility, others very little. You have no way of knowing who does and who does not because you are "new" here. Who has very little credibility is your girl who, at a minimum, admitted to certerline violations in her race which is enough for a DQ. Also hard to take anyone seriously who is claiming that she rode "clean".

Also, hard to take anyone seriously who does not know the difference between a forum and a blog.

I take yoga classes at Adrienne's studio and also rode Racine last year and heard there were people actually questioning her amazing performance on Sunday. I have to put my two cents in and stand up for one of the most amazing women I have ever met. I can attest that Adrienne has changed the lives of the majority of her students by helping us look at the world in a more positive way and helps her students believe in themselves.

I also attended her spinathon to raise money for ALS in honor of Blazeman. She has a lot of involvement with the Blazeman organization and will be taking Blazeman's ashes to Kona to spread at the beginning of the race. She is such a special person that she was invited to run with Craig Alexander this past Wednesday and he took a portion of his morning to sit and talk to her one on one. How many of you can say you have spent time with the Blazeman organization or with a classy athlete like Craig Alexander?

It saddens me that people actually take the time to put terrible messages on here and doubt her ability. Isn't there more important things in the world to worry about then if she may have potentially caught a draft in a race. People are out there dying of cancer and you are actually taking the time to write these messages. You should all seriously be ashamed of yourselves.

To your point Chip, there has been talk that Adrienne is getting calls from a lot of different sponsors that actually care about her and they are asking to be a part of her racing career. They want a special person to represent their brand and I honestly believe they couldn't be making a wiser decision than to work with Adrienne. It is unfortunate that her team isn't standing up for her and seem to be too afraid they are going to be looked upon poorly. It doesn't sound like a team that I would want to be on especially if head individuals from the team are actually taking the time to throw their top athletes under the bus on a blog site. You would think directors of an elite organization would be professional enough not to talk poorly about one of their athletes.

As Chip mentioned, without any penalties given to Adrienne from the race and her claim that she raced clean should warrant a congratulations and not a bunch of people doubting her abilities. She is an extremely gifted athlete and everyone is taking her words completely out of context. From what I read and after speaking with Adrienne, she never admitted to doing anything wrong in her post. She simply stated that there were one or two times where she would catch a very short "unintentional draft" when she would be surrounded by a group of guys that were packed from side to side. Guys get so competitive when they see a girl that they immediately try to speed up b/c they don't want to get chicked as one of the earlier posts said. This then causes a big group of guys trying to outspeed her and she gets caught amongst this mess. Her only goal in this race was to ride as hard as she could b/c she was using this race as a training ride and wanted to see how her legs would react by putting it all out there. Every rider can attest that a minor draft may occur when passing a pack especially on a course with such narrow roads. I ride myself and have experienced this in many races especially in Racine which I participated in last year.

The bottom line is that she is a stronger rider than a lot of guys and it probably pains most of you to hear this. It may seem as though she received extra assistance but it is just her hard work and mental strength that powers her through. This is her second full year of racing and she has an amazing coach who has helped her improve a ton. Most athletes tend to improve a lot in their second year of a sport and Adrienne is taking this sport to a new level this year.

The fact that people are comparing her results to past races is ridiculous. Steelhead last year was her first half ironman ever. Last year she raced the Naperville sprint triathlon, Steelhead and Ironman WI and that was it. She qualified for Hawaii in her first ironman and her sixth triathlon ever if you count a few sprint triathlons in 2007. This year she won her age group in New Orleans and Rev 3, which were completely different races than Racine it sounds like from other races. New Orleans sounded really windy and Rev 3 had really tough hills. Racine was an easy bike course with ideal conditions. Look at all the other girls bike times. There were so many girls that were a minute or two off of her bike time. Should Adrienne really be racing elite if she didn't taper for the race and was using this as a training race? Is it really fair for an athlete to race elite in their second full year in the sport? To also compare Racine's bike times to her shorter races isn't even fair. She is a long distance racer who does shorter distance races for a challenge and training for Kona.

I think it is so sad that the negative posts continue. I am not sure what y'all are trying to prove and why you really care about this so much. Did you also race and perform poorly so are looking for excuses? Are you jealous a new girl is entering this sport and is better than you? All your posts are creating more negativity in the world and making a bad name for yourself. Just deal with the fact that a better athlete won the race and move on. If you have a problem with alleged drafting in races then talk to USAT about getting more officials out on the course or designing their courses differently so this doesn't happen.

It is also kind of sad that you don't have anything better to do than look up past results and find out how her times compared to past races. The only reason I know so much about Adrienne is because I have taken time to get to know this wonderful person and she brightens my mornings up all the time in yoga class. You all claim to know so much about her based on rumors and alleged sources who claim they saw a few things on the course.

Maybe you should start training with Adrienne so you can become a better person and a better triathlete. She raced her heart out in Racine and if she caught a few unintentional drafts here and there then she didn't mean for it to happen. Hopefully one day you will get to meet this amazing woman and your life will be changed in a positive way.

Your “party” analogy just shows that not only are you a tool, but a dumb one at that.

Trying to figure out if this is her coach, her husband, or maybe another relative. Clearly, it's someone along those lines. My guess is chasingthedream is hubby, since adrienne's blog is "living the dream". Maybe Adam should work on his running a bit more, then he wouldn't have as long a chase.

Anyways, I would seriously doubt that Racine was an "A" race for any of the top women. I would assume most of them were training through the race in some fashion as well.

Her team would likely have stood up for her if there were not plenty of evidence and common sense going against her.

And finally, why do you and that other idiot think this is a "blog"? That just baffles me, almost more than anything else on this amazingly long thread.

I never not once ever myself, nor did I see any of her "Team Members" say anything direct and pointed or accusing to anyone in this thread. Gary Geiger said that the team was "looking into" or some such thing.


Let me tell a quick story about Blake Becker (who was also at the race that day.)

Some years ago I was on a race course and there was a guy right on Blakes wheel. I gave the offender a drafting and pulled up next to Blake and asked how long (name here) had been on his wheel. Blake said "there was someone on my wheel?"

After the race I asked Blake again - Blake said "I am not a marshal, I dont give or worry about who is getting what penalty"

Years later...Blake will sorta admit that (name here) was drafting BAD....but, being a Pro (and maybe cause Blake beat him so solidly on the run) Blake does not defame any other person on the course. The time violation spoke for itself.

Now, that is an example of how two folks who are FOP should be have....but - we are here Monday morning quarterbacks and are more than welcome to argue, have contempt, and point out what we think are errors in the past weekends game. Now, imagine if Adrienne was a football player and made an error....then what would be on the internet???

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

The fact that people are comparing her results to past races is ridiculous. Steelhead last year was her first half ironman ever. Last year she raced the Naperville sprint triathlon, Steelhead and Ironman WI and that was it. She qualified for Hawaii in her first ironman and her sixth triathlon ever if you count a few sprint triathlons in 2007. This year she won her age group in New Orleans and Rev 3, which were completely different races than Racine it sounds like from other races. New Orleans sounded really windy and Rev 3 had really tough hills. Racine was an easy bike course with ideal conditions. Look at all the other girls bike times. There were so many girls that were a minute or two off of her bike time. Should Adrienne really be racing elite if she didn't taper for the race and was using this as a training race? Is it really fair for an athlete to race elite in their second full year in the sport? To also compare Racine's bike times to her shorter races isn't even fair. She is a long distance racer who does shorter distance races for a challenge and training for Kona.

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Since you're asking...and since you've presented some compelling reasons why she should be racing in the Elite wave...

Yes. Ms. Yeager, a member at the time, of Team Mideast *ELITE* probably should have raced in the Elite wave.

I'm sure she will go on to have great success as a "long distance racer".

Yeah but I am an "amazing" person who has touched the lives of others so you should be ashamed of yourself for creating negativity in the world...oh yeah and FUCK YOU and the cheater girl

Look I hate to break it to you but I think what some people find offensive or what I personally do is when someone has the balls to whether they cheated or not to simply go ahead an definitively say that they rode better than someone on a particular day and then BOAST about it. The title of her blog post "don't hate the player, hate the game" is a perfect indication. Regardless of whether she cheated or not her time was certainly fast enough to raise some eyebrows and in this case I think someone should expect that there may be some hurt feelings and not add fuel to the fire.

The people who have come to bat for her on this FORUM are just adding to the fire by insulting us further. If I was running Adrienne's PR campaign around this event then I would simply not try to defend her actions and just let it blow over, but as people keep positing it just brings the thread to the forefront and gets more and more attention which is mostly BAD.

If Adrienne really wanted to clear her name she would post her power file if she has one and when we see the 240-265 watt average we would all back off. I'm not sure if she trains with power but I would love to see the power file personally.

As I have said before Adrienne is a fantastic athlete and I do believe she is working harder than most athletes out there. I also don't doubt her abilities and I would love to see her competing at the top at some point in time with the rest of the pros. She runs a fantastic business and overall adds back a lot to the community, but that doesn't mean she isn't capable of making a mistake. The supporters seem to think that the "do no evil" apply here. People do make mistakes, even GREAT or WELL-KNOWN people... I'm not going to take a position either way but there were a lot of people upset with Obama's latest "stupid" comment regarding the PO. Regardless of your view, I'm sure Obama wishes he would have taken the time (like he does with his speeches) to think this one through. What are we supposed to think when people jump on this FORUM and don't respect us and throw around further insult and nothing but comments riddled with errors.

I would like to point out that the girl who won W25-29 was ticketed for drafting, the girl who won W20-24 was drafting behind that girl all day according to the W25-29 winner. That W20-24 girl however was not issued a drafting penalty. I tend to believe the W25-29 winner, especially when she was hanging on the girl on the run like white on rice. In addition, I would like to point out that the W25-29 rode roughly the same time as Adrienne at Spirit of Racine, and had a :30 second faster split than Adrienne at Hy-Vee where they both raced elite.... If the W25-29 winner was caught drafting it doesn't look favorable in my eyes that Adrienne wasn't either. I think as a whole the later packs all had an advantage and SOR and all large races need to do something to make it fair. In addition realize that although Adrienne did qualify for Kona it was a roll-down slot, she only got it because someone passed one up - I'm not taking this away from her but it seems like everyone else is using this for credibility. Personally that AG should have only been given two slots in the first place, how they are give 3 with 90-some participants and then male 25-29 with 150 participants is also issued 3 is beyond me - fyi I didn't fact check this one just estimating.

Personally, I don't think Adrienne needs the team, regardless of whether they stand behind her or not - she is very talented and people and sponsors will recognize this. Regardless of the blood on the streets this is probably no different than a true celebrity drama, where they say "there is no such thing as BAD PR".

M25-29 @ IMWI '08 had 4 slots.

I wish I raced with power, but I only train with it (on my hub). Sorry I can't provide the data, I wish I could.

She would not need 240 to 260 watts, I road a 2:25 on 178 watts.

Do you want my power file?

I can put it up tomorrow evening when I get home.

It's funny that many people think that everyone has to put out 250 watts to go that fast. I'm pretty sure that I remember Adrienne out on the course and she is smaller than I am.

Adrienne, I was the small guy on the blue P2 that leap-frogged with you a few times early in the course.

jaretj

Dude you listed yourself as 5'4" - Adrienne would crush you like a twig. You are pretty much going down in flames here and obviously you became hypoxic in the swim because your memory seems to be failing you - just take a look at the pictures of the two. I'm sorry but you are not even close to being the same size. I'm not that tall either, but given you listed yourself as 5'4" then you are probably 5'3" at best maybe even 5'2", yes we males exaggerate our height.... And then there is the fact you pretty much also admit to a draft on the way out and leaped frog with her? Can I point out that there just wasn't enough room to leap frog legally - you would probably have to fall back 20 riders. Also the entire way out was nothing but side-head wind and head wind, this would have been the most effective time to draft for wattage savings - it is not atypical to see wattage at 175 for 24.0 in a draft btw. I would also admit she has a more upright and less aggressive position probably due to long legs and shorter torso and then she still kicked your butt. There is significance wattage between 23.0 and 23.8 too - you aren't even close to comparing apples to apples. It seems this weekend at Steelhead is spaced out a bit more, and this time the girls have the 45-49 men behind them. Regardless, I'm more about the entire 0-34 group not just Adrienne, it is just unfortunate that she was in the spotlight. As for your race, congrats - I don't want to take anything from you.


To indicate my point about size here is adrienne:

http://www.asiorders.com/...ID=51639&BIB=150

and here is you:

http://www.asiorders.com/...ID=51639&BIB=977


Any questions?

JaretJ - Oh one last thing. If you really think Adrienne and you are the same size than maybe you have no idea what the legal draft limit looks like???

The one thing that can be definitively said about those pictures is that once again, the ASI photogs did their usual stellar job. You know, we all really, really want to see pics of ourselves at corners on the bike, sitting up!

Nice insult, I gues that's easy when you're anonymous.

The fact remains that that speed can be done under 200 watts no matter what you think.

Come on, put your name out there so we can check you out.

At 315 watts and 10lbs heavier than I am you must be the guy that rode 2:09.

jaretj

Congrats if you can go 23.8 on less than 200... I can't but I'm getting fitted this week so maybe I can make some HUGE gains and hope to ride 27+ MPH this weekend.. Seeing as I go off last almost 2 hours after the first wave, maybe I can beat Andy Potts. It doesn't take much effort to find out who I am btw.

Newsflash! Drafting or not. Cheating or not. She won and there is not a shit we can do about it ;-)

Fer Chirsts sakes....you and jer damn facts. SHIT!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Thank you all so much for a half hour of very entertaining bitching.

If I may put in my 2 cents ... I would say that most people do TRY and ride within the rules, but with wave starts sometimes you are put in a position where it is NOT possible, even for a short time. At RI 70.3, try being a moderately fast rider (2:33) starting in the third last wave. I spent the entire ride passing people. I would bet that I passed a rider every thirty seconds on average. Like it or not, that is a lot of time in people's slipstreams.

I think that you folks are all going a little hard on the "offending party" here, but that is just my opinion. One thing ... I do NOT think she should be eligible for the overall win if she did not race in the elite wave. Clearly there is some benefit from starting in the crowds. Even if she did everything in her power to pass quickly and avoid drafting, she still had plenty of time in people's wakes. She did not race the same race as the elites, therefore should only be eligible for the top AGer title.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Christ, now you want things to be EQUAL? What? That is dumb man...an equal sport....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Sue me, I am Canadian ... we like egalitarianism ;)

<<< insert snarky remark about health care here >>>

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

it is always possible to ride legal. You just have to try. All that crap about all the other people and not finding room is garbage. I gave three seperate clinics out on that bike course that day. They are just fooling themselves and taking away someone else's victory.
Everyone can ride fairly out there, they just need a conscience. Karma, baby, karma! It will find you!

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"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK

Did you just cast a spell or something? Are my eggs going to have veins in them in the morning?


Shit...I think my hair is falling out.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

2009 Steelhead 70.3 Result:

Adrienne Saeger 4:48:41

Better luck next time!

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Matt Amman

Maybe she had a flat tire...

Lets hear her story first

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

she still won her age group and was 2nd overall AG'er though...I'd call that a good race.

First, super big congrats for her AG victory.

I won't put too much into this one but I go "chicked", by 3 min at Racine. I unraveled the previous performance at Steelehead by 11 min while riding out of the last wave over 1 hour after her start with at least a 5+ mph increase in wind speed. That is a total difference of 14 min of riding. For the record I had almost identical wattage ~230 and for the record I got passed by NO ONE on the bike, I'm sure I got a little advantage blowing by athletes in earlier waves but not enough to account for 14 mins in difference. I will also say from the large number of riders I passed that it was a relatively draft free event - Spirit of Racine could learn something by spacing out their waves.

Why are you guys this much bitter? Even I did peace with fat people!

She cheated, she admitted it, USAT of course did nothing...as the never do, nor do the masses care. I dont mean to brag about my own threads...but the fact of the mater is USAT can just take your money and run as we have seen with the lack of posts on my thread about the USAT quoting them....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Can they do anything without seeing after the race is over?

Can? Why? Could? Of course.

Fact of the matter is the USAT does not NOT to abide by the rules. If and when they do, it just upsets their core...the one day folks. You and I can see their budget and their imcome online...their one day fees for the past many year matched or beat their membership numbers. When 20% + of a race entry is USAT fees the last thing they want to do is bust their one day folks - who are just there to meet friends and have a good time. I do give credit in the fact that they hold everyone to the same standard...and a very low one at that.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Man, you are just too bitter. I interact all the time with various USAT folks. Everyone of them work their tails off to try and exceed all the Type A's expectations in our sport.
Now, do you really think being in their shoes, you really really could do that much of a better job? Why not work with Kathy on insurance if you say you have one that is better.
See if they will bid for the USAT contract.

Have you ever talked to a USAT official that says they do not call what they see?

I give anyone credit who is honest enough to say sometimes we get caught in situations that may not be perfect to the rules. Bottom line, if you sign up for a race to compete,
you do what you need to do on that day to compete. If a rule is broken, you might get a penalty, just like in ANY other sport.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not bitter - but you have to admit that the cheating (drafting) is rampant. It took USAT years and years to pull the plug on one RD...and now, other USAT races in my area all seem to be off distance...not one or two....allot. When a "half iron" race has a long swim, short bike and long run...well, that is just not a Half Iron distance race.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

You sound very bitter.

You and I and everyone else knows drafting (which I will not call cheating) is rampant. If the vast vast majority cared, they would show this caring with there money.
Since the 70.3 championships has SO many folks, (as one of many examples) my point is made that 99.9% of the folks do not care. So they probably are the ones who really understand this is not
about life or death, but about fun, exercise, etc.

I have experienced first hand various RD's who care about different stuff. At the end of the day, this is just a business!!!!! Folks spend their money where they feel they
are getting what they want. If a race does not have enough customers, they will close. After that, folks "opinions" do not matter.

One reason our sport just stays where it is at, TOO MUCH BITCHING!!!

Oh well, back to working on the FUN stuff while I am "retired" to try and bring new angles to our sport. :o)

It will change soon, very soon, and I sure hope to be a part of the fun.


Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

In some ways, I think many actually like the drafting races, as it gives them a very inflated opinion of how fast they really are. How many will list Racine, Clearwater, etc in their resume of races? Lots! Last year I know of many locals who did Racine, and then bragged about their "PR"s. Holy shit, it wasn't even close, but I think many current athletes just want to be able to say how fast they went without actually doing the race for the magic it brings. Instead of knowing what one is made of, they can brag forever about how fast they once were.....

I'm getting slower, but I'm racing legal! (might be my new Sig line).

So, let them brag. Who cares. If it gets them out exercising, more power to them. One thing I have learned is there is ALWAYS someone faster, and many slower.
I think it is great when someone is excited they met some goal of theirs. How does it "hurt" us for someone to be bragging, as some call it.

At the end of the day, we all have to look in the mirror and answer for our actions. I have seen enough TOP racers cheat, and I do not mean drafting, but like cutting a course,
big time, that I try to just ignore this stuff as much as I can. Was funny a guy came up to me at Nationals that I had beat earlier in the year, who I had seen cut the course big
time. I wish I would have remember to ask him about it, but on the other hand, who cares, we both know how he really races. But I agree with ya, I am getting slower,
but do all I can to stay 100% legal.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You make good points, but I guess one point was that many are arcing for different reasons than you and I. The fastest bike split (no matter the finish time), the best PR(on a short course) or whatever, and yes, it isn't my place to judge. But I guess one thing it means than in their quest to have those bragging rights, the integrity of the sport has been sacrificed, and USAT and WTC have no interest as long as their coffers are full. By actually putting teeth into and enforcing rules, they would piss of much of their customer base, and lose cash as the posers drop from the ranks. Keep them happy with inflated egos and they will return....sad, but very reflective of our society; not just sport.

Yep, you are 100% right. Again, who cares. Is there one sport, just one, that has 100% integrity? I do not think so, but again, who cares.
Best we can do in life is lead by example. By our actions, not our words.

(It was like a guy I heard on the news asking a congress person, tell him one government agency that has made money, and this means real profit money.
He kept changing the subject. )

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My solution to this problem was to skip Racine and do the Door Country Half-Iron that takes place the same day. A great event that has exact distances and deep water to swim in. You should think about doing this event next year; I'm glad I made the switch.

I just wish we could USAT and/or WTC to get some balls and stand up and enact and enforce rules that matter. But, as I said, the money's great for them right now, and why rock the boat and possibly lose customers. I guess I was hoping that enough of us would be "mad as hell and not wanting to take it anymore" that our words would be heard. I'm seriously considering next year's schedule to include none of these entities, and would love to see a series for serious competitors that would set their own rules of 15 to 20 drafting penalties, etc, or a penalty lap. I think they would be surprised that some of us care enough. I see your words to not be bothered by those that cheat, and you are right, but I love the sport too much to let it go. Old and stubborn, call it.

But Gary, they are just there to meet friends and have a good time.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?