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Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport
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I read the article at: http://www.dailytriathlon.com/...7%3ABlogPost%3A21183

This really adds alcohol to the wound. I'm not an Ironman athlete, but I love following endurance sports for the sole purpose of spectating the pros, just like the rest of America enjoys spectating football's and basketball's highly paid pros.

I feel Ironman is taking the path that marathon races took in the mid to late 80's and 90's - they started catering solely to the amateurs because that's where the money is. But, during that time, the average times for the entire field began to slow down dramatically - look at the Boston qualifying times in the 70s vs. the 90's. Boston, New York and Chicago started to lose the respect they had amassed in the 70's and early 80's with heros such as Shorter, Rodgers and Salazar. Look at these races today; they are paying top dollar in APPEARANCE fees in addition to cash prizes. (see article: IM is now charging pros, and providing no appearance fees)

People blame the economy on the Ironman cutting corners financially, but, as stated, look at Marathon.

Ironman races sell out in one day, the entry fees are outrageous, they whore out their logo whenever they can, why can't they pay top dollar to the pros? $100k for winning Hawaii is a joke. I should be $1million for 1st in Hawaii and the top 20 should get paid, with 20th getting at least $20k. All other IM events should pay $100k for the winner.

Some will say why do this when they can make so much money off of the amateurs. Why? Because it is amazing marketing. By doing this, you create heros within the sport of Ironman racing and with heros, you gain a larger audience and with that you can get more TV/internet coverage and ad revenue and bigger event sponsors. If you give to the pros who give their lives to competing in your events, you will get back 10 x what you put in public interests and attention. In the US, wealth = hero, especially if that wealth was gained in a non traditional way, such as through athletics.

To the average American, who is Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt?

They are athletes who compete in sports second tier in the minds of mainstream America who make as much as football and basketball players and for that reason alone, fascination with the sports of the rich and famous, America watches and obsesses over these athletes.

Leak to the public that the winner of Hawaii reaped $1million and they will become interested.

Last Question: Why is Hyvee paying out more than IM Hawaii for the top pro?

Answer: Ironman corp. is greedy, and unlike what Gecko may have said, Greed is not always good. Maybe Ironman corp. should look to Buffett, not Gecko, for business inspiration.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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just be happy you're not a mountain bike pro there was no money for winning a race last year, they got paid by there sponsors only. And 100K for a win is BIG money! pro's in most cycling sports make there money from there team contract and endorsement now winning races.
Dan...
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [bikedude] [ In reply to ]
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This is the typical, "Be happy with what you have."

But, look to marathon racing, as stated before. Ironman charges way more, sells out way faster, Hawaii gets better national tv coverage...

If 70.3 and Ironman races were not selling out, then I could see the reason to tighten down the screws, but that's not the case.

Why make excuses for Ironman's poor business practices. As stated earlier, they could come out better by putting their pros on a financial pedestal.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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miles, ironman charges more

but also costs more to put on

and also has far far fewer total entrants.

Marathon Houston had something like 30k people total paying to be part of the event, with some big name energy company sponsors.

and they pay the winner something like $30k

far less than the ironman hawaii winner



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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You mention Salazar, Rogers and Shorter. Ironically and amazingly that was still the days of the amateur athlete - those guys were not allowed to make any money back then or they would be disqualified from being able to compete in the Olympic Games. They did all that for nothing, but were likely getting some form of support under-the-table support. But it was all hush, hush.

Clearly the times have changed for sports of this kind and for the most part it's for the better. Although, in triathlon we have lagged behind. However, for those who lament the lack of money, you have to realize that the total pool of money the the sport is not that great - it never really has been. Main reason, despite it's popularity, in North America triathlon is still a fringe sport that outside of it's core constituency, which are essentially the participants themselves, their is little or no interest or following. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing dramatically any time soon.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I would like IM to pay pros more. On that we are totally agreed. I also suspect, but don't know that they could pay more without and due financial hardship, but Idon't know that.

Where we truly disagree is that you state not paying more is poor business practice. Unless I'm missing something the only thing poor about IM business practice is that they don't charge more, and don't expand the number of races and number or entrants per race more. They are clearly leaving money on the table.

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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"But, look to marathon racing, as stated before. Ironman charges way more, sells out way faster, Hawaii gets better national tv coverage..."

Major marathons also have way more people, and bring in more revenue:

30,000 people at $100/each is $3 million

2,500 people at $600/each is $1.5 million

Pretty big difference in absolute dollars there. There's also more runners to market to, so the shoe companies throw more money at the runners because its a bigger market to pull from. It wouldn't make sense for Cervelo to spend tons of money to sponsor ironman, because, in reality, how many bikes could they sell? The number is in the thousands, I'd guess. How many pairs of shoes does asics/nike sell? Millions.

The numbers all around are just bigger for the marathons. Triathlon, as 'big' as it's gotten, is still a pretty niche sport.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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- Pros add little/nothing financially to these events. You can even argue that they cost the race $

- Venture Capital bought WTC/NAS

- Venture Capital companies are in it for the $$$, nothing more

This move should surprise no one. I too think it's a joke that 30 hour training weeks might equal an $8,000 payout if everything comes together but as has been said here a bunch of times: until a long term competitor enters the picture and builds a series to compete with WTC you can expect to see even less incentives for pros to race long course.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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Pros add little/nothing financially to these events. You can even argue that they cost the race $

This is not true.

- The media local media, the triathlon media and sometimes other media cover the Pro race

- The Pro race is covered via Ironmanlive.com

- Most of the former NAS races had a TV Show that was made out of them and the Pro race was featured

While not adding absolute $$$ to the bottom line, the above does bring a lot of extra exposure to the event and it's sponsors that would not have been there, if there was no Pro race. Their is a value to that.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Jan 30, 09 11:10
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Does any body have a hint of Premiers intentions for IM. I speculate that they must plan on
much larger T V or some other revenue to have bought out Gills family and Grahm Frazier.
dog

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..
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Gonna need 3 glow sticks.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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I provided several reasons as to why it would make better business sense to pay the pros more. I'm sorry if I didn't explain that well enough, but I'd suggest going back and reading those reasons. With your logic: why advertise? why support growth? why pay bonuses? why give raises? all of those things take money off of the table. But, every successful business employs all of these tactics, which doesn't leave more money on the table immediately, but creates more money in the end.

Amazingly, the overall consensus here is to not pay the pros more.

Shorter (in the end of his career), Rodgers and Salazar were professional runners, from what I can find and have read. Salazar earned race prizes, bonuses and $250k from Nike when with Athletics West.

And, when saying that there is a larger market for runners and they buy shoes. How many shoes does it take to equal an entry level tri bike? tri bike shoes, helmet, wetsuit, running shoes, race clothes, winter clothes, swim gear, sun glasses, power meter, road bike for the early season? Which sport is growing faster % wise, running or triathlon?

And to the response, no one pays attention to the pros. Before football became a pro sport, college football was more popular. The public looks for idols and celebrities and triathlon, while having some of the best athletes in the world, has done a poor job of providing a pedestal for Americans to look up to. That pedestal needs to be made with a dollar sign and more than a 1 and 5 zeros to get American's attention.

I'll leave it at that. From what I gather from the responses so far, pressuring Ironman to do more is too much to ask, the paradigm satisfies most people here and change causes fear.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I agree 1000% with your post.

OK, maybe 100K for winning a local Ironman would be a joke, but just like reality TV if word is out that the winners (male and female) of Kona do $1M, then the interest in the mainstream gets better.

As a bare minimum, let's see $1M for the male pro that breaks sub 8 and female pro that goes sub 9 at Kona....

Dev
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Does any body have a hint of Premiers intentions for IM. I speculate that they must plan on
much larger T V or some other revenue to have bought out Gills family and Grahm Frazier.
dog

You mean Graham Fraser? When did he sell?

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Now we have some good ideas.
huge payouts for huge, attention getting accomplishments


=)


In Reply To:
I agree 1000% with your post.

OK, maybe 100K for winning a local Ironman would be a joke, but just like reality TV if word is out that the winners (male and female) of Kona do $1M, then the interest in the mainstream gets better.

As a bare minimum, let's see $1M for the male pro that breaks sub 8 and female pro that goes sub 9 at Kona....

Dev



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I like that, like the $1million on the line in the Dubai Marathon. Good idea!

But Dubai also provides appearance fees and I don't know if Kona, like Dubair, London, Berlin, has the best record setting conditions.

Maybe save the time incentives for places like Florida (heavy drafting regulation for the pros) and leave the WC's down to a pure race of tactics and strategy and pay out for that feat.

If there's no money in Ironman, how in the world is Hyvee, Life Time Fitness Series, and now Dextro World Chamionships Series paying their winners for sub 2 hour races more than the winners of Hawaii? (that should be embarrassing)

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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But Dubai has a lot of cash to burn because americans buy SUVs so they can get up the road thata has leaves on it and fit their kid in the backseat.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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There's $ in IM.. just ask some of the principles involved to see their tax returns or a listing of their personal properties.

Once again, until there's competition to draw pro athletes away from WTC there won't be fair compensation (whatever fair is I'm not sure).
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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....like in the old days of Nice vs Kona. Kona almost died cause it had zero prize money and Nice was where all the action was. Of course it did not help that Mark Allen could not beat Dave Scott, which implicitly gave Kona legitimacy over Nice....if Allen was beating Dave Scott during his Nice winning streak and Kona was not giving out prize money, I bet that Nice would have gotten bigger and outstripped Kona/Ironman distance in prominence.

Frankly, it really is too bad, cause now the Ironman distance rules...however, this distance is a bad one. It is not a distance that pros can race often and it is not even a distance that age groupers really have a hope of racing...its just a survival contest.

Maybe Slowman and Skid can weigh in about the entire Nice vs Kona thing from back in the late 80's. It is pretty well forgotten today.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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Jack - good point on Dubai, so instead look to London, Berlin, NY, Chicago, Boston... they also offer appearance fees and big prizes.

Slayer: good point, the reason Boston had to get it together was because the other marathons were taking all of the top runners. Their laurels did not outweigh cash and media coverage.

I agree, one solution would be competing iron distance races with good media coverage and better cash prizes within the same month as official IM races. sounds like a call to arms.

It's IM execs lining their pockets vs. long term vision of elevating the sport through raising the status of IM pros, which will ultimately be more profitable. This is like the story of the man who meets his villages water needs by carrying buckets of water from the river to the village. he has a temp. monopoly, but then another fellow spent a good amount of time developing a pipeline to deliver the water. The IM folks can keep carrying the water and the villagers, afraid of change, will argue that this is the best way, but as soon as the pipeline shows up.... either IM gets their act together, or they are opening up a huge void in the market for competition.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The public looks for idols and celebrities and triathlon, while having some of the best athletes in the world, has done a poor job of providing a pedestal for Americans to look up to. That pedestal needs to be made with a dollar sign and more than a 1 and 5 zeros to get American's attention.

The pedestal has never been made from a dollar sign, in any sport that has achieved success for their pros. You mentioned Tiger, Lance, and Phelps above. Let's take a closer look at them and the story of money in their sports.

Golf pros in the '50's were dirt-poor. All but a select few held full-time positions at clubs and juggled lessons with competition. By and large, they were considered second-class citizens. It wasn't until Arnold Palmer came along and captured the public's imagination that businesses got the idea that they could capitalize off of the attention he was getting. This led to sponsor dollars flowing in, both to individual professionals as well as to events themselves, increasing the prize purses beyond levels previously imaginable.

Nicklaus, Watson, Norman and other pinnacle pros kept the trend going, but Tiger once again provided a quantum leap forward. If you recall, he signed a contract with Nike and others before he'd played a single stroke of professional competition, but that was because he'd already captured the public's imagination and those sponsors recognized the opportunity.

Even with Lemond's three TdF victories, America did little more than yawn at the sport of cycling. Lance's early success in cycling, including any financial results, came primarily because he left America and went to Europe where the sport itself captured the public's imagination. After his comeback from cancer and 1999 victory in the TdF, America finally paid attention. The story of this cancer survivor who came back to win the reputed toughest endurance event in the world captured the American public's imagination in a way that Lemond's victories hadn't, and Lance reaped the rewards when the sponsors saw an opportunity to cash in on his popularity. The fact that he went on to repeat again and again, only heightened that popularity.

Phelps is perhaps the closest to actually paralleling your theory that throwing money at someone can create an idol. Coming into the 2004 summer olympics, media and sponsors recognized the potential history to be made and gambled that they could create a marketing blitz around it. So they hyped up the possibility of this swimmer breaking Spitz' historic record -- nothing so captures the imagination of the public than records falling and sports history in the making (just ask Tiger). It's important to note, though, that this possibility existed as a result of Phelps' own abilities. The media and sponsors couldn't simply have conjured up the same marketing around just any swimmer.

See a trend? If I've overused the phrase "capture the public's imagination" it's because that's the essential ingredient. It's not the public following the money to the sport -- it's the money following the public. And the critical question I think we have to ask ourselves is this: Who out there among the Ironman professionals has the ability to capture the public's imagination the way that Arnold Palmer or Tiger Woods or Lance Armstrong or Michael Phelps has done in their individual sports? Whose story has the possibility to transcend the sideshow-curiosity niche that triathlon holds in the eyes of the mainstream and make them think, "I need to follow this athlete, I need to find out how this ends!"

Find that person or that group of people, and you'll have found the hero we need.

cramer
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I feel Ironman is taking the path that marathon races took in the mid to late 80's and 90's - they started catering solely to the amateurs because that's where the money is. But, during that time, the average times for the entire field began to slow down dramatically - look at the Boston qualifying times in the 70s vs. the 90's. Boston, New York and Chicago started to lose the respect they had amassed in the 70's and early 80's with heros such as Shorter, Rodgers and Salazar.
And of course, the fact that the US produced no top runners during that time internationally, and thus interest in distance running started dying down had nothing to do with the times getting slower. Also, the more you add people to an event, AVERAGE times will go down, simply because of the numbers game. The more you add people, the bigger the middle curve gets.

It's like chess. Chess was nowhere in America until Bobby Fischer. Then, clubs everywhere had people bringing their kids in, convinced they had the "next Bobby". Once he didn't defend, it died off dramatically, and it didn't recover those numbers until late in the 90's. Coincidentally when some Americans started doing better in chess, and you had movies like "Searching for Bobby Fischer".

Hrm. Not even sure that makes any sense, I had a point that I lost somewhere in the middle. Ah, well, should have some people saying "huh?" anyway...

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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great points.

I'm around everday people, non endurance athletes, daily.

What do they talk about? How much NFL, NBA players make. They bring up Phelps because of the money he makes. They bring up Lance because of his celebrity status, they bring up Tiger because of the money he makes.

Yes, these people jumped out to capture the publics imagination. But, last time I checked, popular music and movies get known because of being over hyped. Do you want a hero in triathlon? Create it, throw money at it, everybody has story - publicize that story. Is Wellington not a Tiger? Is Potts not a Lebron?

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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That's what really concerns me re: the future success of WTC now that it probably has a shorter term view of profitability since the purchase.

Limiting the pro free entries may be the first step in eliminating any costs that the new group may seem as not a direct oppty for profits - not good news for the working class folks.

Interestingly, there's a new half in CT June 7th, the Rev 3 race that's taking a gamble inviting some top long coursers for a 100k payout. I'm weary that they are really opening the wallet a bit too much upfront but then again I'm not an accountant for the gent behind the scenes.

Either way, kudos for the race for stepping up, taking a chance at something that has some solid potential for the future. Even if it just turns out to be a one year affair it's a great oppty for some pros.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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I think Wellington might be the answer. She just needs to be promoted the right way. On another note I also agree with original poster. I have said it before . Who wants to put their body through the training it takes most to win a ironman when the payout does not equal your medical, travel and equipment exspenses. There should be a tier purse payout just like tennis. its amazing what 20th gets in most tennis tournies.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Runaway greed, blind capitalistic commercialism in the psychotic pursuit of profit.......now, I read about that somewhere recently but I just can't put my finger on it. All I can remember is that the story didn't end well for the purveyors.

http://www.triathloncoach.ca
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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ok, don't look at avg. marathon times, just look at Boston qualifying times.

A lot of people say the reason we did not produce the runners we are producing now was because the support, money, hype went away. Except for Bob Kennedy, who were kids to look up to in high school running? It wasn't until Nike stepped back in sponsored Meb, Culpepper, Abdi did the running boom we're having today begin to take root. and maybe letsrun gets some credit.

You're right, we need inspiration and athletes can be more inspiring and respected when they are earning as much as athletes in other sports and the financial incentive is big for young athletes.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
ok, don't look at avg. marathon times, just look at Boston qualifying times.

A lot of people say the reason we did not produce the runners we are producing now was because the support, money, hype went away. Except for Bob Kennedy, who were kids to look up to in high school running? It wasn't until Nike stepped back in sponsored Meb, Culpepper, Abdi did the running boom we're having today begin to take root. and maybe letsrun gets some credit.

You're right, we need inspiration and athletes can be more inspiring and respected when they are earning as much as athletes in other sports and the financial incentive is big for young athletes.
Right there. If there is a perceived financial incentive, any sport will take off and start producing young stars. Table tennis, soccer, rugby, cricket, many other sports are hugely popular and financially rewarding in other countries. Soccer is probably in the top 3 or 4 sports for overall participation in the world, and many people make a great living from it.

Here in the US, it's not as popular though, and tough to make a living (the MLS notwithstanding) because companies don't promote the sport except around World Cup time.

Guaranteed that if Nike and Coors got together and threw a ton of money at luge, you'd see within a few years a ton of people falling down mountains on their sleds.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I feel Ironman is taking the path that marathon races took in the mid to late 80's and 90's - they started catering solely to the amateurs because that's where the money is. But, during that time, the average times for the entire field began to slow down dramatically - look at the Boston qualifying times in the 70s vs. the 90's. Boston, New York and Chicago started to lose the respect they had amassed in the 70's and early 80's with heros such as Shorter, Rodgers and Salazar. Look at these races today; they are paying top dollar in APPEARANCE fees in addition to cash prizes. (see article: IM is now charging pros, and providing no appearance fees)
You have it backwards. In the 80s and 90s is when marathons actually started paying big appearance fees and big prize money. They were not "catering solely" to amateurs, they were catering far more to elites.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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three words:


supply.











vs.











demand.

this isn't a critical, 'society-can't-function-right-without-it' item like police/fire protection, education, health care, infrastructure, etc.

so the market rules.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Some businesses need to do all of what you say. IM is virtually unique. Almost a monopoly and they sell as much of there product as they can "produce" at a high price.

Again, I would prefer they support pros, but how will it benefit them, the organizers, not how do other business practices benefit other businesses.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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this was already discussed: paying more for pros brings more attention to the races - it's great marketing, it gains them more ad, sponsor, tv revenue, more participants, more gear with the IM logo bought by fans, not just athletes.


supply and demand? there is demand, look at the sold out races, look at the gear bought. capture a larger audience by making ironman pros heros, well known by the espn viewer.

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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
great points.

I'm around everday people, non endurance athletes, daily.

What do they talk about? How much NFL, NBA players make. They bring up Phelps because of the money he makes. They bring up Lance because of his celebrity status, they bring up Tiger because of the money he makes.

Yes, these people jumped out to capture the publics imagination. But, last time I checked, popular music and movies get known because of being over hyped. Do you want a hero in triathlon? Create it, throw money at it, everybody has story - publicize that story. Is Wellington not a Tiger? Is Potts not a Lebron?

The difference between triathlon and pretty much all of these other examples you've touched on in your post is that each of them has an audience in its own right. The NFL, NBA, baseball, tennis, golf, and the Olympics have become marketable properties without specific athletes. Music, movies, and TV are all marketable without knowing anything about the specific actors, musicians, or personalities involved. If the everyday people around you are talking about how much these athletes make, it's not because that's what drew their interest -- they were already interested in the game, and the salaries are just an aspect of that.

Let me give you another example: Michael Phelps has some phenomenal and historic performances at a number of meets outside of the Olympics. In the 2007 World Championships, for example, he won seven gold medals and broke five world records, but how much mainstream media attention did you hear about that? Where was the million dollar bonus from Speedo held out as a carrot for him there? The answer is that the reason the media blitz for Phelps worked in 2004 and 2008 is because the Olympics already had a built-in audience, hungry for heroic and historic performances. That audience just doesn't exist in the same way for the World Championships, and as it stands, no amount of money from Speedo, Powerbar, or whoever is going to change that.

Wellington is, to be sure, a wonderful story, bursting onto the scene from almost nowhere, but can she capture the imagination of mainstream audiences? I'd love it if she could, but I don't see it happening, even if she breaks PNF's career victory record and best finish time at Kona. I think the most she'll be to mainstream audiences is someone who was better than most at a slightly crazy endeavor.

The reason NBC highlights the emotional stories in their broadcast is because those are the things that have a better chance of appealing to the mainstream. They want the people who have overcome the odds, battled back from the brink, beaten back the skeptics to achieve the impossible. Marc Herremans is probably the closest thing we've had to the type of story that could capture the imagination of the mainstream audience -- a former pro paralyzed in a crash only to battle back and win the physically-challenged title. A great story, but somehow still not enough ...

Triathlon, in and of itself, doesn't have a mainstream audience. People don't pay attention to the game for the game's sake alone, as it currently stands, and until it does, there won't be a way to throw money at the sport's professionals to create the kind of hype you describe, simply because nobody will be watching.

The one tactic that's been mentioned on this thread that actually might have a shot at attracting more mainstream attention is a reality-show take on IM. Take, say, 20 average, sedentary people (10 men and 10 women), and follow them in a weekly reality show as they prep for IM. To create the week-in, week-out nastiness that people have come to expect from reality shows (and that tends to create an audience), limit the number of slots into the race to two per gender. The finale is to have the two "qualifiers" in each gender race for the prize -- $1M. It's unfortunate, but I think this has a better chance of reaching the average joe out there in TV-land than spending that $1M on the professionals. (And, just to make it clear, I do agree that the pros in our sport deserve better for the work they put in -- the current reality, though, is that they can't expect things to change any time soon.)

cramer
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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It is a business plain and simple. When the pros can pull 80,000 fans who pay $35 and more per race they will get paid like football and baseball players.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't agree more with you. Thanks for bringing up this topic.

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http://ebrownracing.com | http://twitter.com/EzEBreezy
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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reality show = disgusting.

Again, look to marathon running. These athletes are not house hold names and they will never be up there with the nfl/nba, but they are given reasonable prize money compared to what IM pros make.

Triathlon is the IT sport for the average joe wanting to get in shape and having idols and heros for a sport that allows anyone to compete in the same race as the worlds best triathletes, unlike football and basketball, is appealing and amazing.

the self loathing here is pretty amazing.

Ironman (WTC) is not giving back to the sport that it is profiting from as much as it should be. No, you can't compare triathlon to mainstream American sports, but you can compare it to running. Other than high school and collegiate runners, who looks up to milers such as Alan Webb and Bernard Lagat? Yet, they get huge prize amounts.

The Tour de France's ASO also has a monopoly, like WTC, but I don't see them skimping on prize money.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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"When the pros can pull 80,000 fans who pay $35 and more per race"

How many participants are there in IM races world wide? How much are they paying per race?

It is business, plain and simple.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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If paying more to pros is great marketing give an example where paying more to pros has made a sport more marketable.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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reality show = disgusting.

Again, look to marathon running. These athletes are not house hold names and they will never be up there with the nfl/nba, but they are given reasonable prize money compared to what IM pros make.

Triathlon is the IT sport for the average joe wanting to get in shape and having idols and heros for a sport that allows anyone to compete in the same race as the worlds best triathletes, unlike football and basketball, is appealing and amazing.

the self loathing here is pretty amazing.

Ironman (WTC) is not giving back to the sport that it is profiting from as much as it should be. No, you can't compare triathlon to mainstream American sports, but you can compare it to running. Other than high school and collegiate runners, who looks up to milers such as Alan Webb and Bernard Lagat? Yet, they get huge prize amounts.

The Tour de France's ASO also has a monopoly, like WTC, but I don't see them skimping on prize money.
There are 10-20 times more runners world wide than triathletes. And, those runners are going through more shoes than triathletes since they are not riding their bikes.

Actually, I suspect that the amount of prize money that ASO offers at the TDF, for this 21 day event, is small compared to the amount they bring in just from world wide TV alone.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I addressed this: tri gear vs. running shoes, earlier in the thread. How many shoes does it take to buy a tri bike with a power meter and aero wheels?

to the other poster, Running. Running has upped its prize purses and sponsorships and this generation has heros and this has lead to a new boom in talent and interest. interest = more sales for products, more spectators (even if only online, which equates to ad revenue).

The sport of running is not overflowing with money, but they pay their pros appropriately at races, something Ironman/WTC is failing to do.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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three words:


supply.
vs.
demand.

this isn't a critical, 'society-can't-function-right-without-it' item like police/fire protection, education, health care, infrastructure, etc.

so the market rules.

What market? There is no market. NAS/WTC effectively monopolizes professional IM racing.

An analogy would be Hershey buying up all chocolate companies, then jacking up the price of chocolate to $100/bar. People will still buy it - there's still supply and demand - but it's not a free market.

If each IM event were truly independent and had to actually compete to get top pro athletes to show up, you might see pay rise significantly. Or you might see the pro category disappear entirely. But you'd definitely see the market at work.

I would argue that, for a lot of reasons, there are very steep barriers to entry to compete with WTC/NAS. Triathlon One-O-One? They got shut down *fast*.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 30, 09 19:01
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [trail] [ In reply to ]
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maybe they should resurect the 1-0-1 series and fix everything...
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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competitor radio has a great interview with Macca that was put up 2 weeks ago. I am not a big Macca fan per se but I will give him this, he knows marketing and he knows how to promote sport. That equity firm should hire him.

Listen to it, he has a great idea about taking Ironman and making Grand Slam style events as part of the circuit. Similar to tennis or golf. Obviously Frankfurt would be one event, I would submit Australia and New Zealand and South Africa could rotate a Southern Hemisphere Championship, and IMC/LP could rotate a North American Grand Slam. Hawaii becomes the Masters, or the Wimbledon of Ironman. 4 events, 4 major champions each season to celebrate and maybe one day someone goes for the grand slam.

I would suspect a private equity firm will think this shit up for themselves and now that they own ALL the north american events they can at least start to bring marketing and championships together (and maybe just maybe, protect their brand by actually having drug testing!!!). They no longer have to compete with NA Sports for ideas, they now will own those ideas.

Repeat process for 70.3 and pick those 4 grand slam events for pros to qualify to HAwaii at. It is ruthless to have the top athletes have to qualify at an ironman. Lets keep Henning, Potts, Sultan, Bentley, Ficker fresh for the hawaii race!!!

Anyway, that is my two cents.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not an Ironman athlete, but I love following endurance sports for the sole purpose of spectating the pros

The problem is that most people do not share your interest in following endurance sports.

I compete in IM's and to be honest, enter races without the least bit of interest in how many pros are there.I have no idea what they make in or out of the sport but since it is their chosen profession, it is up to them to find a way to earn a living. I think most competitors who train and work would love to compete without having to work but that is life, it's not always fair.

If people are so concerned without how much a pro makes, they can donate money to them and help with their chosen lifestyle but I rarely see that. We tend to complain because others don't sponsor them but why not do it yourself? Take a few hundred dollars each month and give it to a pro triathlete of your choice. If enough people do that, they wouldn't have to rely on corporate sponsors.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [trail] [ In reply to ]
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What market? There is no market. NAS/WTC effectively monopolizes professional IM racing.

It each year it amazes me a bit more, the critical decision that was made to trademark and license the Ironman name. Consider, if you will how different things may be, if the word ironman was like the word marathon - and it simply referred to a sports most popular and legendary distance event. I wonder how different things would be. It's been great so far, but their comes a time when you may have too many or all your eggs in one basket - and that can be risky. Marathon running is thriving. It's diverse. It has many different corporate sponsors involved in many different events all over the world with a big world wide audience and participatory base. Ironman by contrast has a much narrower view and thus narrower opportunities, in a much smaller market. As I said, it's all been wonderfully successful to date - just wondering where it will go from here?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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Wellington is, to be sure, a wonderful story, bursting onto the scene from almost nowhere, but can she capture the imagination of mainstream audiences? I'd love it if she could, but I don't see it happening, even if she breaks PNF's career victory record and best finish time at Kona. I think the most she'll be to mainstream audiences is someone who was better than most at a slightly crazy endeavor.

cramer
I hate to say this but one of the problems with Wellington (who I do like), is that she is not American. America is the biggest market for sports. We spend more than anyone else combined. Soccer is the largest sport in the world, most followed, it has some of the highest paid athletes, but on average are they paid as much as baseball, basketball, football, dare I say even hockey players?

Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports. These are all team sports, but lets look at individual sports: who are the biggest names? Americans for the most part, snowboarding, swimming, gymnastics, running. Where are the names made if they are not American? In American competitions for the most part.

The only outliers here might be rugby, and cricket, which are large in former British colonies.

In American we like domination. We like Americans, but don't necessarily need our heros to be American, look at baseball or even many basketball players. We also like comeback stories. Look at Pistorius, he got play here so that means he got play overseas. In America we create most of the best known sports players. Every country will have their local and national champions/heros. Until Barack Obama, Michael Jordan was the most known person in the world followed by Bill Clinton. Not sure how those ranks still stand.

Another reason why America and our perceptions of sports and their athletes are more important than any other country are the brand names. Gatorade, Nike, Trek, Reebok, Callaway even Under Armor.

What are the foreign brans? Mizuno, Adidas, Shimano, Puma.

American brands dominate because they have more money to make sure their names are on more butts, shoulders, feet and helmets than any other brand. For our sport to become mainstream it needs a huge influx of cash. From that heros and comeback stories will be made. If we can have one major breakthrough, maybe an American will triathlon in the Olympics the sport will become far more mainstream which will mean money will lead to more stories and then more money. Money buys stories. Without money there is nothing.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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My Prediction

Lance will win Ironman 2010! The money will start to flow in! all will be good!

Scott in Whistler
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing to add is that we as a sport are not accessible. Triathlon is a very expensive event to become involved in. Bike, bike gear, running gear, swim gear, entry fees.

Running on its own is very accessible, however one of the reasons why baseball and soccer are so widely watched, loved and participated in is because they are even more so. What do you need to play soccer? A ball, not even a real soccer ball, baseball: stick and a ball. You may think I am simplifying or exaggerating here, but look at some of the third world countries that participate. The Dominican Republic has a ton of players that play in the US, and started playing with a stick/branch whatever and a ball that was a rock wrapped in old socks.

One thing that surprises me is the lack of investment in the sport by some of the larger names and private individuals. Since we are a more 'elite' sport, we have a lot of individuals that compete at all levels that are very wealthy. I am also somewhat surprised by the lack of their involvement in giving back.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports.

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and a few hundred football (soccer) players might disagree.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports.

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and a few hundred football (soccer) players might disagree.
I did leave off Federer and Nadal, they are hugeish stars. Another elite sport, its not as widely played as 'American' sports. I would argue tennis is a big as it is because of the women not the men, sex sells. I also included soccer. There are maybe 5 super big players, outside of them they are all b-level players. However if you read what I said I also mentioned that soccer is widely accesible. Virtually no cost, and while it is huge on a world arena, it is larger in a regional/national level.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Someone should organize an Iron distance race, find a sponsor with deep pockets and put it on the same day as Kona. Offer $1M for 1st Place, $750K for 2nd, $500K for 3rd……live television coverage of the event on Versus, etc, etc.

Then we would see if it’s all about the Prestige/Mystique of Kona or if it really is “about the money.” WTC does what they do and offer scraps to the greatest athletes n the world because there is no competition. If there was a viable threat to their brand they would be forced to keep pace.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Some great comments.

I also feel something was really lost when the name Ironman was trademarked. I can't imagine if "Marathon" had been trade marked or "Triathlon" or "18 holes of Golf"

Macca's idea for a grand slam series is great. Limit the pro races, up the standards for qualifying as a pro and pool money from all of the IM races to offer prize money 30 entrants deep at 4 Pro IM races a year, offering $1M for winning Hawaii, another $1M for breaking the Hawaii IM course record, $250k for winning any of the other races and and another $100k for setting an IM WR with the Pros who get 30th, still getting $10k in prize money.

Have 3 IM races in the Grand Slam series early in the year which would spread the pro field out and then bring them all together at Hawaii. Maybe throw in some of the 70.3 races as part of the series and spread the 70.3 WC far enough apart from Hawaii so that pros can truly contend for both titles.

There already are a number of Iron distance races popping up that are well run which could band together to promote an Iron Distance series, with better pro purses.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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There already are a number of Iron distance races popping up that are well run which could band together to promote an Iron Distance series, with better pro purses.

Indeed.

You know as great and as competitive as the race is at IMH every year, the irony is that it could be way more competitive and much better. There are more than a few top long distance specialists who choose not to race in Hawaii for one reason or another. The reality is that the WTC does have lots of options. It has a world wide series of races both 70.3 and Ironman distance choose from. It has the infrastructire to do a lot of things. The problem is that it's ham-strung by the history, the legacy and the importance that so many people put on IMH. There is lot that they could do, if they could move away from the current model even slightly.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Someone should organize an Iron distance race, find a sponsor with deep pockets and put it on the same day as Kona. Offer $1M for 1st Place, $750K for 2nd, $500K for 3rd……live television coverage of the event on Versus, etc, etc.

Then we would see if it’s all about the Prestige/Mystique of Kona or if it really is “about the money.” WTC does what they do and offer scraps to the greatest athletes n the world because there is no competition. If there was a viable threat to their brand they would be forced to keep pace.


Great idea. With all due respect, if it's so easy, don't you think someone would have had a go at this already!

Really the only time that this sort of challenge came up in the sport was back when both the old Nice triathlon and IMH were in the fall. At the time Nice had prize money and believe it or not, IMH did not. I can't remember the exact too'ing and froo'ing but in the end IMH realized that if they wanted to stay viable and keep the top pros coming, they needed to put money on the table.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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But where will the Iron distance races get the money. I'm doing B2B this year. Roughly the same time frame and region as IMFL. What I like about B2B is its cheaper and smaller. I wouldn't mid if it also had a 20 person pro field, but to attact that they would have to charge more and let in more competitors.

Frankly I don't think there is a market for Iron distance races just as big and congested as WTC races and as expensive, without IMH spots on offer.

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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One thing I feel strongly about is not messing with Ironman Hawaii. It's a great tradition and should not be screwed with.

B2B is put on by setup inc. I have more respect for WTC than Setup, and that's not saying much. I remember doing one of their races once and they had stated that 1-3 overall would get cash prizes and trophies. The cash wasn't much, but it was some incentive. I was 2nd overall. I received a plastic cup from Race for the Cure, a completely different race that wasn't even put on by Setup.

But, moving 70.3 WC from Clearwater, heck just to Clermont/San Antonio, FL where there are some hills on the bike course, and to a date that makes for a better IM WC and 70.3 WC double.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting stuff in your post, but they had nothing to do with my question.

How are non WTC races supposed to get big prize money to attract big pro fields? For most the allure of the non WTC races are smaller and cheaper. If they were big and expensive the choice would be big pro field vs IMH slots. My guess is most would go for the IMH slots.

Styrrell
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