We need pictures to fairly evaluate this question.

First I laughed.... then I agreed.

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Of course. I know I was open to looking at different guys than my teenage idea of the "dream guy" as I got into my mid to late 20s. The guy I married is the opposite of who I thought I would end up with and we have been together for 13 years, married almost 12. I know if I went back on the market I'd definately be open to men with a variety of personalities, incomes and shapes.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

why is it that us guys get called shallow when we say this? :)

Ok ok, in all seriousness... I've smoked/drugged/drank and wonder sometimes why someone else hasn't - we're all young at some point. Is this a religious thing? I don't do any of the above anymore and have been "clean" for over 2 years. No I didn't have a problem, I just stopped one day and never looked back. I started early, and by 23 I had just had enough. Job = good. I like tv - what's wrong with watching tv? Has not watched b-ball/football for forever - well I'm Canadian so I look at that as a good thing lol. But if you were to put hockey in place of those two, I would again wonder why?

But I think the description of dull seals it for me. Why would any woman want to "look" at someone who is dull?

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

I'll say yes that he's probably a great catch but the caveat is for the right girl. IE - if all he's interested in is the bleach-blonde, implants, shopaholic then he may not come with the type of status that she's looking for. However, if he's looking for a down-to-earth girl then I would venture to say that he would be able to find the right person.

I'm a firm believer that when it comes to relationships you have your "wants" and your "needs." The "needs" are the things that are intrinsic to a good healthy relationship such as honesty, loyalty, hardworker, etc. The "wants" are those things that would be a bonus such as hidden trustfund/great paying job, long eyelashes, etc. I believe the key is to find someone who meets, if not exceeds, all of your "needs" and then anything they bring from the "want" catagory is just the icing on top. Long-lasting relationships do not survive on surface items like hair color or whether or not the person has a little bit of a gut. They are built on the honest to a fault and good valves (values I presume?) you mentioned.

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http://smallfoodbiz.com
</blatent self-marketing>

Depends of what kind of girl he wants to take notice...If he projects that he's happy, confident, and comfortable with himself, that's the kind of gal that will look his way. If he's shy, insecure, and makes up for it by being a tool, then I'm sure he'll get some attention but maybe not from the kind of woman he wants to meet.

Now if he has a 10 pound package and a trust fund...
just kidding, kinda.

There's truth in every joke hahaha :P

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

After the shallow first impressions from phsyique and general looks (I'll be honest), what gets me is the intellectual attraction. This means I have to get into a conversation with a guy before I really know if there's going to be a connection. Dull/shy probably wouldn't work for me personally as I'm a chatterbox and a bit of a controlling personality so I need someone who can/will push back but, as someone else said, it's a matter of finding the right person. Sadly for a shy guy, that means he needs to meet enough people to find the right one.

Sort of off topic, I know it's rude to point out spelling errors but "great valves" is giving me the giggles.

No criticism intended, it just made me laugh. I once had a creditor "waiving his tights" (darned r's and t's are too close to each other) in the minutes of a bankruptcy meeting and I spent several years signing off emails as Alsion or Alions so this is definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Cool!

Maybe you need a rewrite? Something along the lines of:
Clean living, fit and active working professional, is a good listener and great with his hands.

So this whole time have we been talking about you?

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Hey, I think I'm a bit like you (I'm a guy). I'm pretty shy and quiet, and am not a social butterfly by any stretch. If I'm in a room full of people and they're all laughing, talking, having fun, etc., I will gladly be a fly on the wall and not join in. Case in point: my girlfriend and some friends decided to play Taboo the other night, and I really wanted no part of it. Of course, I played with them but I would have been just as content sitting there with my mouth shut watching everyone else play. I didn't want to be entertained :) I'm not sure if I'm describing this very well! I'm almost 29 and might have 2-3 drinks per month, and I've NEVER smoked or done any illegal drug. So, lots of folks would probably say I'm boring, and it took me a while to find a great woman, but it finally happened. Be patient and stay true to yourself - not easy to do, but it should be worth it. Just my two cents!

Fair enough. I think it's fair to say, then, that my opinion doesn't matter here. I'm 26, so my outlook on things is very different than someone who you would be pursuing/would be pursuing you.
"where i might stand being single again if that happens" - are you currently not single? Does this mean you are planning to be?

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Wow. I don't have any advice other than to say hang in there. Good luck with whatever happens.

I like wine and football too much

;-)

Jodi

Wow! Weird and tough croud. I don't think most even read the thread. I thought this was supposed to be a place where people could express themselves without all the "pick or it's not real."

I feel for you.

You sound like a really good guy in a bad situation. Whatever transpires, I hope the best for you. When you first posted you sounded like a certain high profile individual that posts here a lot. I won't mention any names (T).

I am not as old as you and I am sure you are more wise and have more experience with life. But we can only take life for what it is and since we only live it once, I always try to make sure that the people around me as well as myself enjoy it to its fullest. I hope good things for you. It looks like you have taken a big step by discussing this with people and this means that you are most likely on the right path.

Good luck with which ever direction life takes you.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

yea but isn't your tool getting lots of action these days?

Ha! Let's just say the last few months have been "nice." :) It's coming at me from all angles, like snipers in a jungle.

If they were good snipers there'd only have been one shot, and you'd never have noticed it. :p

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

First of all, you need to put everything and more into saving your marriage. I know there's a lot of water under the bridge and it sounds like you don't have the energy to really fight for it, but you really need to work on that first. You married this woman. You chose her. Now find a way to make it work.

I believe that there is someone for everyone out there. Lots of women would be attracted to you. But, that's not even going to be necessary because you are going to man up and do what you need to do to save your marriage.

You and your wife have drifted apart. Not uncommon in marriages. Just look around at the divorce rate to see that. But, that doesn't mean you can't find that spark again. It takes hard work and it takes time, but it can be done.

My favorite marriage counseling book is "His Needs, Her Needs". Buy it, read it, answer the questions in it and ask your wife to do the same.

Good luck!

look, i'm not going to sit here on the outside and tell you how to run your life. after all, we are just bystanders.

what i will say is that once you are squared with your marriage, things will begin to change. if you stay married, then you'll be in a relationship. if you're single again, then the universe will probably find ways for you to meet others. this is how it works.

so, once you figure your shit out, the rest will take care of itself. have heart.

;)

I thought this was supposed to be a place where people could express themselves without all the "pick or it's not real."

He asked specifically about attraction, part of that is physical.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

You make a good point, but it's kind of a catch-22. Yes, a good sniper would only need one shot, but I sure as hell wanna notice it when it happens!

Man up

that's code for "do what I want you to do"

Sometimes "manning up" means saying "no." What you've described here is not "manning up." I feel for you, I really do. Been there to some degree with my ex-wife. But, it seems a little weird to me that you're testing the waters here to see if women might find you attractive if you were single. Does that mean if the response is negative you'll stay in a miserable marriage because the chances of finding something better aren't good? Dude . . . that's crazy. Either stay in or get out, but don't make it dependent upon whether you might find somebody else. Sounds to me like you're a people-pleaser (I am, too, to some degree), and you've spent the last 8 years subjugating your OWN needs giving in to your wife on everything. What makes you think that's going to change in a new relationship? You need to decide whether you want to save your marriage or go your own way, but in either case, asking the Womens of Slowtwitch if you're a catch or not is irrelevant.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

i think you have manned up. but it seems you are resentful of the situation, and (granted i'm hearing only one side, which is yours) i don't blame you. personally, i don't know if i could have dealt with the brother in law being an addict and your wife's enabling. those are things i cannot handle (and won't handle).

so, now i'm going against my word. i told you i wouldn't say what to do with your life. but...here goes.

i think you need to get out of the stuff that is making you miserable. you're angry, resentful and sick of it. no wonder, that is alot of shit to put up with. so, what do you want to do?

it seems you're at a turning point. it's either going to keep going as it is, with much the same. or you're going to take charge of your life and make some changes.

meeting a new woman is a diversion. are you afraid of being alone the rest of your life? personally, i think once you got all of this non-sense out of your life things will look up. the reality is that you're already very much alone in this mess.

the hard truth is that it's time for you to make some very tough decisions. it will be your decision to get out of the marriage. and even getting out of a trainwreck marriage will require some recovery time. but, imagine your life without all of that nonsense. if you want someone to say "get out of the marriage", i will say it. it's ok to get out of the marriage if that is what you want!

my best advice is to talk someone for yourself. talk to someone who can help you to understand/talk through how you feel, and help guide you through some tough decisions. chose a life coach, a pastor, a lawyer, whomever. my thought is you could do this for yourself, considering all of the endless stuff you've given, it would be nice and beneficial to have the focus on you for once.

best of luck, this is a sad story, but has a possiblity of really looking up. we've got one shot at life, how do you want to live it?

All of those things you list are wonderful and show that you are someone who put a lot of effort into your relationship. It's what every husband should do. But, what you are not doing is finding a way to make your marriage work. If you are doing all of these things and not getting what you need in return, then you are as much responsible for your situation as your wife is. You can moan and groan all you want about the way your wife doesn't do this or her brother does that, but it's up to you to take control and make sure you get what you need out of life and out of your marriage. I believe in marriage enough that I still think you should work to save this one. You're the one who married her, so take responsibility for that and make it work. It's too easy to walk away when things don't work out. That's why the divorce rate is so high. You put yourself into this situation, now find a way to make it work.

I think Dawn said it's up to you to take control because you are the one bitching about it here. The same thing might be said for your wife if she was the one ranting.

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

I think you're reading too much into what Dawn is saying. There are things that each party to a marriage should do. What those things are is not dependent on whether you're a husband or a wife, nor are they necessarily the same things for every marriage. I don't think Dawn is placing blame here, she's just saying that you need to decide whether you think your marriage is salvageable or not (or whether you even WANT to salvage it) and then act accordingly. The advice would be the same if it was your wife here telling her side.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

take responsibility for that and make it work

what does that mean?

It seems like you were coming on here trying to get sympathy for your situation. I haven't said it in my posts, but you certainly have my sympathy. I'm sorry that you're in this situation. It sounds miserable. It sounds like your wife isn't doing too much to help your marriage. You have certainly done what any good husband should do and it also sounds like your wife hasn't done much to be a good wife. Yes, there are things that a good husband should do. He should take care of his wife, he should stand up for her, he should help her with family situations. You've done all that and you haven't gotten much in return.

HOWEVER, you need to take responsibility for your current situation. You married this woman. You have put up with things as they are. If you aren't getting enough sex, then do something about it. If your wife isn't meeting your needs, then do something about it. Don't sit back and moan about it, take responsibility and change it.

I am a big believer in marriage and I think that people should do everything they can to save it. Obviously, I'm not into saving abusive situations or situations where one partner has essentially removed themselves emotionally (which may be the case for your wife), but there are many, many marriages that end in divorce that really shouldn't have. People need to start fighting for their marriages. Do some real work to find out what's not working and then work even harder to fix it.

I'm sorry if my earlier posts came off as "high and mighty". I really didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to give you a different perspective. You sound like you've given up and I was trying to get you motivated to try again.

Interesting thread with many interesting responses. I tend to agree mostly with what Dawn has said. For full disclosure I am a very happily married man with two kids. The following is what has worked for us.

1. Marriage is NOT a 50/50 effort, it is 100/100. Meaning each person gives 100%
2. Your marriage/spouse should rank ahead of every relationship you or your wife have with any other human being. It should be ahead of kids, family, friends, co-workers, everyone. It sounds like your wife does not share this sentiment. You need to tell her something like "I love you. Because I love you so much I cannot support your brother and his destructive habits any longer. I'm putting our marriage first because I want to save it. Is that what you want?" Said kindly, this should hopefully start a meaningful conversation so you can see her side. Maybe you can save it maybe you can't - that is up to you.
3. End financial and as needed emotional support to her brother. Don't give more money. Don't pay the cell phone bill. Don't let him live with you. He is old enough to stand on his own and you and your wife should not be supporting a 48 year old man.

what does that mean?

Many times in marriages when one spouse isn't getting what they need out of the relationship, they stop putting in any effort at all. They figure if I'm not getting what I want, then I'm not going to try anymore. It then gets to the point where the relationship is so soured that they decide to get divorced.

IMO, when you are not getting what you need out of your relationship, that's the exact time you need to put in more effort. It's counter-intuitive because you have to say "I'm not getting my needs met, but now I have to work harder at the relationship?". Often your feelings are hurt and you are angry. That's a hard time to put forward a harder effort to make the marriage work. But, that's exactly what's needed. If you aren't getting your needs met, I think you need to find out why. You talk to your spouse, you read books, you speak to counsellors, you talk to friends. You do whatever it takes to figure out why your needs are not getting met and what you need to do to fix that.

Many times you'll be surprised that the other spouse's needs aren't getting met either. You think you are meeting her needs, but you aren't. That's because what you value and what she values are different. You may be working your tail off in order to support your family, but she just sees you working all the time and not having any time for the family. There's a disconnect there with what's important to each person and therefore, neither of them are getting their needs met.

So, that's what I mean by taking responsibility and making it work. It's up to toolguy to do the work to save his marriage, even though he's the one who isn't getting what he needs out of the marriage.

And how do you think he could know what this 'work' is supposed to be? It is up to toolguy to sit down with his wife and decide on a counselling schedule or a separation agreement, a marriage is a 100/100 partnership, not 0/100, toolguy on his own can't do much, it takes 2 people to want to make a marriage work, not 1.

I completely agree with you, but he can and should take the initiative. Getting your 100% should come automatically in a marriage, but it often doesn't, unfortunately.

This may tough to hear...but because you did "everything" for your wife and forgot your own needs she doesnt respect you anymore...and women dont want sex with a guy they can "walk all over".....

.....you should have calmy said "no" a long time ago....and I doubt that she will ever respect you now beacuse what has happen in the past...not impossible but unlikely...

Dude chill out, we're not here to shit on you, really. Many of us have been in comparable situations. You need to do some serious thinking about what you need from your marriage. Ask your wife if she can honestly give those things to you. If not, then you have your answer. The first hard part will be you coming up with what you need an effectively communicating that to her. Then the second hard part will be taking the action(s) you already know you are going to make.

You will need some time to heal and get over all this hate and hurt and neglect. Any relationship during this time will have a tough time lasting.

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

toolguy sounds like a well educated individual going through a rough time. Tough love and honesty works but I think it is obvious that it has gone a bit far at this point. I believe he will agree with many of the posts as time goes on but at this point I think he needs a little support and people are pushing too far. It is evident by him trying to delete the post.

People, especially people that are the "giving type" rather than the "taking type", need time to process and need nurturing along the way. If you really care, even though you don't know him, I think that is great. It is a wonderful trait when people sincerely care for others. And if you are one of those people, I believe you need to slow down. This will be a gradual and painful process for him (or anyone for that matter) and overloading him with advice is going to drive him nuts.

Yes, it is his fault for asking on an Internet forum. But he did take a step towards figuring things out. Perhaps not the way others would do it, but he did take a step.

He sounds like a good, humble, respectful person that is having a hard time.

I think it is time to stop with the advice (toolguy you could also just stop reading the thread. The thread could go on as soom of this advice could be useful for others). And people that care could send him a PM and see if correspondence occures.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik