I hope swimmers have to pass a red cross swim course before being eligible to race in triathlon.

---

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

At one of our local races this year, the county required a 10 minute gap between waves this year...

I'm amazed the IM races still get away with a mass start. I know it's tradition but if you think about the choppy water at cda and 2000 people in the water at once, what are the odds of a life guard spotting trouble in the first minute or two of that start?

I love the aquabrawl for some weird reason but you are quite correct (even taking into account the divers on the bottom).
-------------------------

---

Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

Seriously. IMFL had ~2170 all rushing off into the ocean at once and someone did die.

I'll tell you part of the reason for the mass start: the coolness factor. It makes one hell of a photo.

It reminds me of how my college made a big deal to the freshman about being able to have their graduation comencment on the White House lawn.

No doubt, but when does the sheer insanity over rule the coolness factor.

I don't care how well you train, if you take a sharp blow to your body it could render you pretty uselss in the water quickly.

Extra time and effort = bigger barrier to entry = less one-day and yearly licenses = less money = not gonna happen.

Also, it's not a very good idea. We need to stop with all the hand wringing and hand holding. Triathlons have inherent dangers that are printed right on the waiver. Treat adults like adults and let them sign up and accept the risk. An adult can make the call whether they're up to the task, be it a 1/4 mile sprint swim or a 2200 strong mass start IM - there's no reason to "rule" everything to death.

AMEN.

I agree, I'm a big believer in the indiviula right to be stupid. I don't think you should be forced to wear a bike helmet. I wear one, as that's the comfort level I prefer, but if I didn't want one, I shouldn't have to wear one.

Hello Mullinism and All,

I was picturing the reverse of the mass swim start - a mass finish.

With timing chips it doesn't matter when you start.

Seeded starts allowing for a mass finish with everyone crossing the finish line at the same instant (2000ft wide) would make great TV.

Some trampling possibly - but death not so likely as drowning.

2000 runners sprinting for the finish line ..... and it would give the pros a chance to pass everyone entered in the race.

Insanity ....... perhaps.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I think the "Coolness" fact or has something to do with but is only a minor component.

Mass starts add the the challenge, but most of all you know that everyone on the course started the same time you did. Makes for a very different experience, at least for me.

~Matt

Yes reverse TT style start. That way pros could start later and I could sleep in. THis first wave stuff is killing my sleep.

Besides helping my sleep, the idea its silly as pros would run people over in the swim and off the road in on the bike. It only takes one pro going 24 mph smashing into someone on a mountain bike going 12 mph before that idea starts making mass swim starts seem like a good idea.

On a big beach like IMFL can't people seed themselves and avoid getting hurt? I dont' know, I never lined up MOP of BOP so I don't know so I am just asking.

---

http://www.johnhirsch.org
http://www.stronglikebulltraining.com

Go GW.

you are right. just let people drown. if that is the case, just get rid of the lifeguards and everything.

---

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

"On a big beach like IMFL can't people seed themselves and avoid getting hurt? I dont' know, I never lined up MOP of BOP so I don't know so I am just asking."

Based on at least 20 years of racing the answer appears to be no. A lot of runs actually post pace signs at the start so people can get it right. Either people think they are a lot faster than they really are or they can't read - perhaps both.
-------------

---

Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

I think they ought to just go ahead and cancel the swim because it is dangerous, and probably go ahead and cancel the bike because it's not fair, and dangerous, due to all the drafting, and the run is usually pretty darn dangerous as well because it is in the heat of the day.

But if they did this, how would they determine the winner? And how would you train for a race like that!?

I agree. Why do we need lifeguards if we have to sign a waiver? I would also get rid of aid stations--participants can eat each other. The weak should know not to sign up.

I'm not sure how dangerous the mass start really is, but if something as simple as a wave start would save lives, it's hard to argue against.

---

http://snappletriteam.com/

c'mon dude, no one is saying that. The risk of serious injury is FAR greater on the bike than the swim. Should we do the entire bike leg on a stationary trainer??

He's right, there is legit risk inherent in the sport. I have found however that the faster I swim, the less congested and less dangerous. In IM, the mass swim is part of our sport, just like the peloton is part of cycling. It's dangerous, but its a part of the sport and I actually love it and hope it stays.

Then Paulo would never race...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

[reply]Yes reverse TT style start. That way pros could start later and I could sleep in. THis first wave stuff is killing my sleep.
Besides helping my sleep, the idea its silly as pros would run people over in the swim and off the road in on the bike. It only takes one pro going 24 mph smashing into someone on a mountain bike going 12 mph before that idea starts making mass swim starts seem like a good idea.
On a big beach like IMFL can't people seed themselves and avoid getting hurt? I dont' know, I never lined up MOP of BOP so I don't know so I am just asking.[/reply]


Can you really be a pro going just 24 MPH ? :)


.

I agree that lifeguarding for a triathlon would be a nightmare, and I would not want the responsiblity - as a lifeguard - to watch over the safety of 2000+ people at once. Separating the waves a little is a good move if it is done to help the guards check the water.

However, I have personally seen people who start at the back of an IM race and are backstroking within 1-2 min of entering the water. I have seen people at the start of an IM who do not have any forward motion in the water - not because they are panicked - but because they cannot swim. IMO some people have no business trying to race when they can't swim, and there don't need to be rules to accommodate them. They need common sense.

The "divers on the bottom" concept intrigues me. If someone ends up in trouble anywhere but at the very back can they really help? Any sort of midpack trouble, heart attack, kicked in the face/semi-concious, panic attack, whatever, and I doubt anyone can help too much till the pack passes. Unless of course someone in the pack saw and stopped.

I picture a diver surfacing into a pack getting a pretty good battering unless the water is very clear. Maybe nearly surface, grab the victim, stick a reg in their surprised mouth and re-descend? Anybody ever volunteer to be a safety diver in a race?

Kevin

Any one who has not been diving is going to have a serious panic attack (assuming they're conscious) at having something crammed into their mouth and then being dragged under.

I remember my first diving class in the pool. Lesson one: learn how to use a regulator. I put it in my mounth, and descended (sat on the bottom of the 3.5 feet deep section). I sat there, slowly panicking, until I took that emergency inhale... Then thought "hey, this is pretty cool!" And I KNEW what was going on. I can't imagine being surprised by that coming out well...

---

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

I understand that. If you can't swim, you shouldn't be there. I guess what makes it more dangerous in that mass start is that there are so many bodies and so much contact for so few life guards. This has nothing to do with swimming ability, you could be a great swimmer and get a good hard kick to your nose that makes you inhale quickly.

I'm not sure what the divers are there for, I would imagine the most contact is durring the first 100 yards where it's shallower water anyway.

my thoughts exactly. I just don't see how they can help but I'm probably missing something.

Kevin

Isn't a person running oversome one in the middle of the swim when a later wave catches up just as dangerous? Also if they increase the intervals you will have lapping going on on the two loop swims. The pros caught the slower people at IMFL in 2005. That was not very cool for them. That was the worst swimmers being run over in by the fastest people, in an unforseen spot in the middle of the race. The pros only had a 15 minutes head start. If that was bigger we would have run over more people. It seemed worse to me than a mass start on a huge beach where people can seed themselves and spread out and where all the contact should happen in shallow water.

---

http://www.johnhirsch.org
http://www.stronglikebulltraining.com

I actually think in water starts are better than beach starts. The only fear I had with a mass beach start was tripping and getting trampled in shallow water.

I think that, on your race registration, you should have to give a seed time for a swim. Then they can start all the fast swimmers first, and we won't have to swim through all the slower swimmers who would otherwise start ahead of us... and then they can spend all day passing us on the bike like they're supposed to ;)

love from,
a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday :P

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Though if you're good enough to be a FOP swimmer who is overtaking a previous wave, the odds are very good that you're also a good enough swimmer to be able to overtake the previous wave without causing them distress.

Provided that the swimmers in the previous wave are moving either straight or at least in a consistent direction, and not pulling a crazy Ivan less than five feet from my hands.

I don't think the middle is where it as bad but the very start. Tons of chaos and splashing, just hard on the life guards. Again I'm not arguing for starting in waves, I'm just surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Exactly. Stronger swimmers that are used to sharing crowded lanes are very capable of making a last second dodge without disrupting their strokes too much. Unless the slower swimmer makes a wild change in direction, which certainly happens, but for the most part, major collisions are avoidable. Random breastroke kicks-- those are a different matter.

---

__________________________
http://www.aliciaparr.com/blog
http://www.performentor.com

Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

Goooo HIPPO!

I personally like mass starts a LOT more and in my opinion, IF THERE IS ROOM for a mass start it is no worse than a mass start. Again this is assuming there is room and you're not starting 30 deep on shore....

That beind said waves are great on a shorter swim as it seperates people out but on a longer swim you still end up with later waves swamping earlier waves and although drawing out the time between waves is a decent idea it forces later starters to often face hotter weather and draws out the time needed to complete the race which in some locals can make it a bit harder to get permits.

I'm curious how many deaths occur during the start portion of the race versus somewhere midway during the swim where it is already partially spread out). It seems to me that the deaths that you hear about are always in the latter portion of the swim or am i just out of touch here?

Another option, SELF SEEDED WAVES. With chip timing, why not. I'm all about the mass start for competition and excitement's sake but if we're argueing that this is just about going out there and having fun why not set it up as:

1st wave - elite men
2nd wave - elite women
The above are ONLY eligible for overall awards and cannot roll down to age group slots

Age group waves are seperated into "competitive age groupers" and "cruiser age groupers" or something like that.
-Competitive age groupers are grouped into wider age group start brackets than normal (as there are now less people) and are eligible for age group awards.
-Cruiser age groupers are started after them in "A", "B", "C" groups based on their expected swim times.

Complicated and totally not thought through but in a way it breaks down each type of racer and puts them into their own appropriate category getting rid of a bit of the mix that often is the problem in races.

Not only that, I think this will greatly reduce the number of local races available due to prolonged logistics with road closers and such. I agree, you assume the risk and shouldn't be out on the course if your that out of shape and that poor of a swimmer. They do have beginner races.....why can't they start there.

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. I don't mean this in a malicious way. Everyone knows what the IM swim start is. Your choice is to assume the risk or not to race. Our society is continually moving toward,

1. Not allowing individuals to assume risks (e.g. someone else decides that they will make the choice for them and remove all risk).

2. People knowingly entering risky situations and then blaming someone else when things go wrong. This is the other side of the coin and why #1 is becoming so prevalent.

This is very unfortunate. For all the debates about mass swim starts and all the drafting IM is what is is and is a very unique experience. Hopefully they will leave it alone (maybe cut back the field size a little) and people can either just accept it, or do some other race.

Dude, having seven Ironman races under my belt (including Florida 2006 and CDA 2007 and Placid several times) I can tell you regardless of of pristine Mirror Lake or pretty choppy GOM at FL 2006 the mass start is a swimming machine. However, it is an assumed risk, like anything elese, like riding your bike on a road with lots of several ton pieces of metal motoring behind you while talking on crackberries.

[reply]I think that, on your race registration, you should have to give a seed time for a swim. Then they can start all the fast swimmers first, and we won't have to swim through all the slower swimmers who would otherwise start ahead of us... and then they can spend all day passing us on the bike like they're supposed to ;)

love from,
a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday :P[/reply]

That's a pretty good start. I'd modify that to... Specify your swim speed at registration, and you get a cap of a certain color. Stack, or seed, the swimmers by their cap colors. Let the fast color caps in the water first to tread water. The kayakers can patrol that and ensure the groups stay ordered properly before the cannon goes off. Should be reasonably easy to spot people in the wrong zone. The RDs just need to focus a bit more on the topic and it'll be fine. I don't recall any such discussion before any of my 70.3 races.

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

"That's a pretty good start. I'd modify that to... Specify your swim speed at registration, and you get a cap of a certain color. Stack, or seed, the swimmers by their cap colors. Let the fast color caps in the water first to tread water."

Dont you think the swimmers that know they will be in front already start at the front? The problem lies with the people that cant swim that still go to the front, and those are the same people that would not be truthful about a realistic seed time.

I'm wondering: of all the 3 sports which discipline is usually the one that people train the least for? I would bet that its swimming. I remember in highschool swimming we swam at least 5,000-6,000 yards a day, 5 times a week - and the longest event was 500yds.

I know a few people who participate in triathlons from sprint to Ironman distance who only put in minimal training for the swim leg.

Races used to seed swimmers in just this way in the 80's. Usually for each certain time grouping (19:00-20:00 min. 1.5k for example) they would assign each grouping a number then wrote it on the swim cap, we were supposed to gather by the number at the start. Of course, it never seemed to work...I believe because most did not know, or lied, about their swim speed.

This could work if everyone had to verify a seed time for the swim. No verification time? You get seeded in the back.

Now, how to go about verification...hmm?

I also prefer mass-start swims, and not because I'm a strong swimmer who has no problems with a crowd. I like them because I don't get into a previous wave in the water and then have no idea how I'm doing against my REAL cometition for the rest of the race.

If the waves were separated by enough time, then it wouldn't be an issue, but in every wave start race I've done, I have no idea how I stack up in the AG until the results come out.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

This doesn't apply to half-IMs and less, but as far as IM's are concerned, the problem with wave starts is that there is time that elapses between waves. So what? With a 17 hour window and permits that often require the RD to close things down at midnight - any wave that goes off at 7:10, 7:15, or 7:whatever AM is going to have their 17-hour race cut off shorted by the 10, 15+ minutes that it takes to get all the waves off.

Back in the day, the Mrs Ts triathlon used to make you prove you can swim. You'd have to a) show them race results from a prior race or b) go to the beach and get a waiver signed by the lifeguard stating that you can swim in open water.

...plus family members, of course.

[reply]Seeded starts allowing for a mass finish with everyone crossing the finish line at the same instant (2000ft wide) would make great TV. [/reply]

Well it didn't quite work like that but the New Balance 1/2 Iron in Victoria BC a few weeks ago did a chase format. The faster waves started later. There was a cash prize for the first person across the finish line. I think Jonnyo won overall but just missed the cash prize.

I did see or hear of any crashes or problems but there might have been.

Hello DougM and All,

While thinking 'Outside the Box' maybe some cash or a preme for the amateur's might be fun .... did the cash prize for the first athlete crossing the finish line at the NB 1/2 include amateur's?

For a mass finish getting everyone seeded would be a chore but using previous race results would be a good start. (no pun intended)

Race liability and safety issues may give impetus to a rethink on mass starts vs. wave starts.

A few years back at IM Europe (Roth) they started the 65 and over AG before the Pros. It made the race a lot of fun for the AG though the Pros had to suffer passing through us.

Seemed to work OK though.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

[reply]did the cash prize for the first athlete crossing the finish line at the NB 1/2 include amateur's? [/reply]

I believe it was whoever crossed the line first, no restriction.

Finally, a topic which boils my blood! USAT needs to step in and change the rules. Until you have been an RD and put thousands of athletes in the water since 1994, many close friends some of which stood up with me in my wedding and club rookies just doing their first Tri as well as raced every distance IM and under, don't talk to me about mass starts being an assumed risk, part of the sports lure, fun or any of that other crap!
I have advocated better safety in the water for years. The bottom line is risk management and protecting the athletes in the water as best you can. Anyone hear of negligence and liability? Those are two words that an RD gets to know very well from attorneys, insurance agents, USAT officials, family and many other when things go very badly.
I wrote the ITU long course manuel in 1996 and can tell you first hand there is a better, safer, more racer smart plan already layed out for USAT. ITU required a host of minimum standards USAT still hasn't implemented.
Wake up! Unless you have been responsible for putting 1300 athletes in the water, don't lecture on what you would feel like if 1299 got out. 1299 is a bad number.

Mass starts are wrong at all levels. Period.

ST

---

STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

I think the seeding according to your time, and having it noted with different colored caps is a pretty good idea.

As far as the validation, here in Spain, for 10k run races (10,000 people registered, sometimes more) you get seeded according to your expected time. The way to validate that time is that when you register, you have to bring proof of the time you say you can do. Its enough to print out the results list from the last race you participated in.
If youdont have that, or dont bring it to registration, you get seeded at the back. I think this could help a bit..

It's funny how this thread (like most on ST) turns into an IM discussion, primarily. Many of these posts above are discussing mass starts at an IM-distance race with several thousand people.

What seems to have prompted the discussion, however, was an unfortunate death a couple weeks ago at a WAVE-start, SPRINT race, with a few hundred folks. From the accounts that I have read, the poor guy wasn't swum over or kicked, etc, he was just a shitty swimmer. Wave start, mass start - it wouldn't have mattered.

I have no solutions to the problem (if there even is one), just making an observation.

Good points. The race I got the email about was also a wave-start event: 1/3 mile swim, 3 minutes between waves, no wave over 50 people. They even had "novice" category waves that went last.

My original inquiry was if anyone else (RD's, regional officials, etc) had any inside information regarding forthcoming rules changes. By the responses received here, I think that the answer is "no."

To the RD who posted just above -- if mass starts are the worst from your prospective in terms of liability, are wave starts better and time-trial starts (ala Lifetime Fitness MSP) the best? Unfortunately, from a liability standpoint, the best option for the organizer of a triathlon may be to hold a duathlon instead. Or maybe just a 5K. How about a trivia night?

In any case, it will be interesting to see how things shake out. Thanks for all the comments.

mm

Remember the good ole days when you had to know how to swim to enter a triathlon!!

"It only takes one pro going 24 mph smashing into someone on a mountain bike going 12 mph before that idea starts making mass swim starts seem like a good idea."
- - That's already happening when myself and guys faster than me (Moats, Harper, etc.) come out of the 50+ wave and ride 22-25 mph through some slow AGers. Why can't we seed by established finish times? That would make things a lot safer.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday"
- - What a WEENIE!!

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"the odds are very good that you're also a good enough swimmer to be able to overtake the previous wave without causing them distress."
- - I nearly broke my wrist at an Oly last year when I caught up to the fourth wave ahead of mine (4 minute gaps) and some moron was prairie doggin'. I swam through a few folks, taking care to sight my line, then put my head down and took about six strokes and *BAM* I smacked the back of this guy's head with the back of my wrist. He had just stopped and was treading water. Anyone that challenged (his 1500 time had to be nearly double what mine was (~21:00) should be in a special wave and go off last, for his safety as well as mine.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I'd forgotten all about that hippo and the insane amount that was spent on it. Good ole G'dub.

No.........they just need a wetsuit, doncha know? Water temperature be damned!

G

---

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

I'll hold my hand up and say I'm not a great swimmer by any standards. 87 mins for the IM swim is a PB for me. But I know its rough up at the front so I seed myself accordingly and go near the back. Three IM swims now with 1000s of starters at each and its never been a problem.


Its up to the individual to work out their own level and start accordingly. Personally I would think its worse to have waves at an IM event as people would get swam over by faster people behind ?

I'll hold my hand up and say I'm not a great swimmer by any standards. 87 mins for the IM swim is a PB for me. But I know its rough up at the front so I seed myself accordingly and go near the back. Three IM swims now with 1000s of starters at each and its never been a problem.


Its up to the individual to work out their own level and start accordingly. Personally I would think its worse to have waves at an IM event as people would get swam over by faster people behind ?

I vote for waves, and no double loop swims that invite disaster. Are there any 70.3 races that have wave starts?

As for the debate over which is more dangerous, just remember that if you fall off your bike you usually don't drown. And by the way I'm all for closed bike courses too, since I'm slow out of the water (and usually in a late wave) and spend the rest of my races passing people. I'd rather take my chances passing people on the bike/run than go through the chaos of a mass start.

If you're a FOP swimmer, I'd go out on a limb and say the mass start is probably a non-issue for you. The MOP swimmer on the other hand has to deal with all kinds of stuff.

I suspect most injuries in the swim take place because of someone doing a breaststroke kick. If you are swimming beside or on top of someone you can get an elbow or flutter kicked. They might even pull the ripcord on your wetsuit or slash at your goggles. If you are on someone's feet you might get a hard flutter kick as a warning. No big deal usually. But if you swim up on someone who is not comfortable sighting, clearing their goggles, or waiting their turn to go around a bouy, or who should be a duathlete...and they are doing a breaststroke kick...then you at very least jam a finger or two. Breaststroke in triathlon should not be allowed. I know there is no way to police it but in murky water it is probably the biggest danger. One good kick to the head and you could just be swimming with the fishes. The only time I loose my temper is when I come upon a chronic breaststroker.

>>Are there any 70.3 races that have wave starts?<<

Oceanside
Vineman

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday"
- - What a WEENIE!!

nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :(

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

"nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :( "
- - It must have been a short swim. The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. Unfortunately, at my age, that just gets me into a scrum with earlier waves, sometimes as many as four of them...

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I agree with qualifications for swimming.

Swimming, particularly open water swimming, is inherently more dangerous than many other activities. Throw in the water war at the beginning of a triathlon and it just gets more dangerous.

One needs to be a stong swimmer (compared to the general population) to be able to complete a triathlon swim safely. Ya can't just remember taking lessons at the Y as kid, and hope to grunt it out on the day.

On the bike or run, if something goes wrong, you just stop. In swimming, for arguments sake that isn't really an option.

By having simple qualifications, even using existing ones like Red Cross or similar, would be a step forward to improved safety.

I'm a strong swimmer by general standards and not bad (not great tho) in tris (IM about 60 minutes) and I love rough weather. Rougher the better as I extend my advantage. Many people, even IM swimmers, get nervous in rough water. Not a good sign.

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

i don't understand why people are so against this, a simple standard for basic swim competency. to me it seems so reasonable, clearly we are in the minority.

---

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

IM Swim seeding can be based on a verifiable previous race result. Just like with Kona lottery winners, anyone entering a IM should be required to at least complete a half sometime in the year previous. Sorry to open up yet another can of worms.

Coolness should take a back seat to safety for sure.

However, non-mass starts tilt the playing field, albeit only a little.

I like mass starts too, I can handle the cut and thrust and manage to make some headway over those that don't do so well. I lose all my advantage when I get on the bike, so it's a bit of a moot point, but I still like a level playing field.

Wave starts have their merits, but one needs to be careful when people are 'racing'. Pros or any top AG athlete will be racing their opponents as much as themselves, so when they are in front,t hey need to know they are in front. No use having a guy start 3 minutes behind, but finish 2 minutes behind, and steal a Kona slot for example, simply because the guy in front didn't even know there was a 'race' going on by some guy behind.

Like IMNZ a couple of years ago. As #1 seed, Cameron Brown headed off first, about 60 sconds ahead of #2. Raced to stay in front of course. #2 was able to "key" off the leader and get accurate splits of the distance to first so is able to pace himself more accurately. Cameron wasn't able to do that and that was a big disadvantage. Eventually he missed the top spot by only a few seconds. If it was head to head, I bet he would have been able to pick it up a bit to bet the other guy across the line. (There needs to be a level playing field, wherever possbile IMHO)

Since it was a shortened race, there will always be a controversy on whether he kept kis IMNZ winning streak alive. Since it was a race put on by IMNZ, his streak could be considered broken. Since it wasn't actually a proper IM race (no swim and approx 1/2 bike an 1/2 run) it wasn't a proper IM race therefore, by winning again this year. he DID actually keep his IMNZ streak alive.

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

"nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :( "
- - It must have been a short swim. The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. Unfortunately, at my age, that just gets me into a scrum with earlier waves, sometimes as many as four of them...


LOL. It was a 1500m swim but with a current and I felt like, for having the current, my time was kinda slow. The course wasn't marked at all, it was wicked hard to sight anything. I went all over the place (laughs). But we did get to climb up this really cool ladder onto the docks!

The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. that line is almost as good as the "swimmers aren't arrogant, we're just that good" that you came up with this winter.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I'm used to being in the minority. Middle aged, middle class, straight white guy in a long term monogamous relationsip with an average job. You better believe I'm in the minority! LOL Hell, I even admit to being MOP!

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

"I felt like, for having the current, my time was kinda slow."
- - Current is like wind, it affects the smaller athletes to a greater extent than us big boys. At 175, headwind and current aren't nearly as rough on me as they are on you. As to sighting, if you're only SECOND fastest in your wave, then you can draft and let someone else worry about the line.

"almost as good as the 'swimmers aren't arrogant, we're just that good' that you came up with this winter."
- - Now I'm blushing. I didn't know anyone paid any attention to my nonsense!!

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

They do it for little kids before they can go in the deep end at the pool.

Amen, just a week ago before the beginning of a local sprint/oly race I overheard a guy telling his group, "it's ok if you can't make it you can touch the bottom". I'm thinkn' holy crap you cannot touch it is at least 15' deep! What are these people thinking, I put in many hours in the pool and open water before doing my first race. I had not done any race type swimming in almost 20 years, I spent a whole year getting back to comfort before I raced. It is the sole responsibility of the participant to be ready. The first buoy was only 50 yards from the start, and "many" people were getting pulled from the water. One of the Sgts. I work with was on the Police boat next to the water safety patrol, the response from people was "this is alot different than a pool". No Shit! Its your own fault for not being prepared. You should have to test out before entering a race.

- - What a WEENIE!! i agree i want the bodyguard back!!!!!! LOL

---

ken
trying to act like a runner

- - What a WEENIE!! i agree i want the bodyguard back!!!!!! LOL
ken embracing the suck


LOL. At camp, I am learning to play nicely with the other kids, though.
How is your swimming going?

Cousin Elwood - it was a downstream current that should have helped me. :P

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

my shoulder has been bothering me so other than a 1.5 mile (45 min)open water swim to get ready for my first oly (24 something) i have not been swimming for 6 weeks. kinda miss it but until my run times can get below 9-9.5 min a mile for 10k it is time for run training (yuk)

---

ken
trying to act like a runner

I think SOME self seeding at IMs would be nice. Put up some signs with expected swim time and ask (at the pre-race meeting) that people honestly try to seed themselves and explain why.

At IMAZ I tried to seed myself and ended up dodging and weaving for the first 15 minutes because so many slow pokes put themselves at the front, as if that was going to make them faster. YEAH! RIGHT!

---

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Haven't heard about this specifically. From hearing a couple of RD's discuss this at a couple of races, they are always concerned about safety and take it really seriously, but one of the key pressures I hear most is from local officials setting a "get off the road time." So, you have to compress the swim waves to get people on the road, so they can get off the road. That has got to be a tough challenge and balance for a RD. Hopefully there can be a good dialogue that can help solve these two variables.

As an aside, I realize there are a limited number of swim cap colors, but I don't think an RD should use black, navy, dark green, etc. as cap colors for AG. Even if RD's have to have duplicate colors I think it makes more sense to have bright caps that are a duplicate that can be easily seen.

---

I miss you "Sports Night"

I hope that your shoulder feels better soon. Do you think it's something wrong in your stroke that's causing it? Does just freestyle hurt, or are you okay with fly/back/breast? (hint hint THERE ARE OTHER STROKES THAN FREESTYLE)

run training isn't "yuk"!

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Just guessing, but I would think having someone die during the previous year's even might make it even harder to get a permit...

I would have given you my spot on the line and stayed on your feet has far as possible.

But I didn't qualify to race..

---

____________________________________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

Yeah, but with 2000 runners and 4000 of their "closest family members," it might make things difficult for the race photographers.

---

"Real winners aren't content with yesterday's victories"

Legally, it might actually be a bit riskier for an RD to require a swim test than to do without. If a test is passed, you could argue that there's an implication that the RD/race management has somehow certified that the athlete is competent enough to complete the course, whether it's actually true or not. (race morning in the middle of an agressive crowd with waves and currents is a whole different keetle of fish than being asked to swim a distance in calm waters while solo)

No test- you could argue that you're shifting the responsibility of competence entirely onto the competitor.

And is the swim actually the most dangerous part of the race? For all that we sometimes locally get some very rough swim conditions, I'd bet if you went back and counted the number of endurance race deaths or serious injuries, the numbers would come up:

1. heart attack, normally during run (my husband had a guy die right in front of him at a local 5K race a couple years back)
2. bike crash- hit by car
3. nutrition/hydration failure
4. bike crash-other
5. swim incident not related to undiagnosed previous medical condition

I doubt that it is any riskier legally to give a test, in fact probably the opposite. It shows that the RD was doing everything prior to the race, to insure no weekend warriors..We have a two mile swim here in Hermosa beach, and it requires that everyone, and I mean everyone, does a qualifying swim..And it is not easy, you actually have to swim decent freestyle. If you finish the race you get a pass to next years race, but as soon as you miss a year, back to the requal...... It was implemented because of an earlier drowning of a super marginal swimmer, who actually had a personal paddler. In fact, the race required personal paddlers for every swimmer in the old days, but obviously didn't stop the drowning....So the qualifying process began, and to this day it is one of the most competitive ocean swims I've ever done. Around 700 really competent swimmers, one mass start, and most the straglers are just older folks......

In the past, Mrs. T's required a swim test for at least the Olympic. It was one of my first triathlons and I had to have a lifeguard sign a slip of paper stating that I could swim 1500m without stopping. This was in 2002.

These posts of "speculation" can get pretty whacky, no?

What I'm reading from all of this is that are two many athletes in the race: therefore, the races are simply too easy.

Triathlons in the past were traditionally an extreme test of one's mettle. Remember when NO ONE, EVER, wore a wetsuit?

"Oh, there's a triathlon today? Cool, - I'll jump in."

Now the sponsors, the race organizers, and the equipment manufacturers, get to make tons and tons of money to fill up the water and roads and trails with tons of people clamoring all over each other to get on some obscure cable TV channel.

More and more people enter the sport every month, and more and more money gets made. Employing qualifying times, limiting the number of competitors, or making the race harder and/or more dangerous are things that take money out of the pockets of people who are demanding that that money not only keeps coming in, but keeps coming in at higher and higher rates.

Uninfluential Slowtwitch BOPers are really going to influence some sort of change? Just be quiet and give away your money.

I agree. Times have changed from when triathlon was a sport for few to one for the masses. For the safety of the masses who are not prepared as they should be, I think the guidelines have to adapt. I like the Red Cross idea for beginners.

---

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

For at least the last two years, the Jekyll Island, Ga Oly tri has done a time trial type start for the swim. When you register the first time they ask for your expected swim time. Then they assign race numbers based on that. They start two swimmers every 5 seconds in number order.

I really like it because I am out there with evenly matched swimmers and nobody is all bunched up.

I'm not sure, but we suspect that if you enter the next year, they use your prior finish time instead of what you wrote down on the registration.

How this could be made to work with a huge start, I don't know. With 150 swimmers, it took right at 6 minutes to get everyone into the water. This was with one starting gate and two starting at a time. There was no division made for age or gender or size.

It also did a good job spacing out the rest of the race all the way through the run.

Why have I never seen your psudonym before. You've been on for 3+ years.
El Kabong instantly brought me back to afternoon cartoon in the late 50s early 60s.
What a crack up. Is there a Baba Louey (sp?) there with you?

---

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Because supper hero’s only appear during a crises.. Has for Baba Louey, he retired to south Florida few yrs ago
haven’t heard from him since..

---

____________________________________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

Tell him 'Hi!'
I'm sure he'll remember me (as I'm sure you do). I saw him at least once a week for years.

---

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Dude, G-Dub rocked. I pretty much got kicked out of there for partying too hard. I was drunk about 4-5 nights a week, leaving me almost enough time to try to hang onto speed workouts with the XC team.
From 1996-1998 I was definetly a wannabe VAn Wilder. Sucks to get old.

We were there around the same time. I was there from 95-99. I was on the volleyball team. Would I have known you? I don't remember a lot of hard partying XC runners but it sounds like you might have been in a different partying league, I only partied in the off-season and then only on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights (and usually only 2 of the 3 nights).

Can you help me out with preparing to get kicked in the face, I'm not sure how to train for that. I don't see that in any of the Red Cross class descriptions. Do I train differently for freestyle vs breast stroke kicks? I suppose I can incorporate it in group swims while I'm training to have some 250 lb guy swim over me.

you are missing the point. there would be no breast stokers to kick you in the face if people were competent to swim the required distance.

why are you so afraid a some basic requirements to get in the water.

---

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

You have nothing to fear as you sound like a fantastic swimmer.

---

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I'm all in favor of everyone being a capable swimmer before they start the race. But that doesn't mean nobody will freestyle kick me in the face. It doesn't mean nobody will swim over me. It doesn't mean nobody will breast stroke kick me in the face. It doesn't even mean nobody will be doing breast stroke, I sometimes do a couple of breast strokes if I need to sight. I've seen people that can breast stroke faster than my freestyle, does that mean they're not competent to go the distance?

I'm all for wave starts. During the swim, people speed up and slow down. They change direction. They bunch up and spread out. It's tough to see this happening very far in advance (unless you keep your head out of the water by doing breast stroke or dogpaddle). The fewer people swimming in the same place at the same time, the easier it is to react to these changes and avoid problems.

Sure, people will still pass each other, even from one wave to the next. But faster swimmers from later waves won't catch up to an earlier wave until people are somewhat spread out. This makes it easier on both the "slow" and "fast" swimmers, there's more room to pass without contact, swimming over someone, etc. In nearly every wave start race I've done, I have caught up to at least a couple of people from earlier waves, but with a smaller crowd of people, it is easier to recognize that they're going slower and go around them before I get too close. I would rather my swim split reflect my swimming ability rather than my ability to take (or dish out) punishment in the water.

I've been (freestyle) kicked in the face hard enough to see stars and hurt the kicker's foot. Fortunately it was a smaller woman who didn't have too much muscle in her kick, and we were training with only a few other people. If I had been hit much harder, I doubt I would be able to continue swimming. If there were 1000 other people around me, the results probably wouldn't have been good. I'm a big guy and a decent swimmer, but I'm sometimes pretty uncomfortable with the amount and severity of contact that goes on. I can't imagine how a small woman (no matter how good of a swimmer) would feel.

Let's face it, someone drowning during a swim (or crashing on the bike, or collapsing on the run) gets far more press than a triathlon that goes off without a hitch. We need to do what we can (within reason) to make our races safe. It's hard enough to put on a race, we don't need more issues with insurance, permits, Police/Fire/Rescue manning, etc. that would come after an unfortunate race incident. I think wave swim starts are a reasonable solution to improving swim safety.