Wurf "can't run"...but outruns Don (the bike stud) and wins in Cannes! (update-wins IMOZ 2:50 run)

Triathlon Forum
138

Wurf’s questionable associations is not dumb speculation it is a fact. He has been very open that he trains with Froome and Team Sky, but has never–to my knowledge–addressed the elephant in the room regarding his involvement with them. So yes I do have some “basis” for asking him as a fan of professional triathlon.

I guess no fan or organization should be concerned about a top tier professional triathlete closely associating and openly training with a professional cycling team under a doping cloud. I am not saying he is doping, but just that he should address the elephant in the room, because he is the one creating it by his behaviur. Furthermore, if Wurf continues to improve he can and likely will win Kona and it will be a major cloud over his win and our sport if he doesn’t address it.

Sometimes its better to keep quiet having people think you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt. You have just removed all doubt.

139

He Broke the long standing record set on the old Forster Course by 1 minute and the current course Port Macquarie record by 8 minutes. The wind was up on the bike so his result is even more impressive. The Age Group times were notably slower on the bike. I thought Tim Reed was impressive in his performance for 2nd, when Cam started spewing with 2km to go the crowd at the finish line was going crazy! they had a big screen with the live feed, made it a great atmosphere

On the women’s race it was disappointing to see Laura Siddale with 2 top age group men at about 100km into the bike, it was only a moment I saw them go past but it was heading into the flats so cant imagine they split up. Considering it was very close with Caroline and she biked solo almost to the end of the bike, these sort of things could be the difference. I wasn’t witness to much of the bike so hopefully it was just in that moment she Laura was with the age group men.

140

I don’t think spandexboy’s questioning is actually idiotic. It is fact that former team Sky have a cloud of doubt hanging over their heads and there is a very big possibility if they were a smaller, less powerful team with less $ that cloud would have burst a great shit storm all over them by now. Is guilty by association a thing though? I guess in this case it could be more likely as Cam was a member of the team, not just a tag along for a few training rides. Here is the thing though, I have doubts over the pure cleanness of a few of the guys and girls in long course racing, even the short course ITU. I believe there are some who are in, what I would call, that grey zone

141

He’s coached by Kerrison. That should tell you all you need to know.

142

So you mean he didn’t break the record since previously the event was run on a completely different course but that record still somehow is applied on the new course as well?
Kiuru has the record on the old course and always will, but Wurf has the new record on the new course.

Well, obviously he broke “the record” but I thought we were debating whether it was by 22 sec or by 8 minutes??? Honestly, I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I don’t do iron races and I don’t even ride the bike anymore but rather I just swim and run. I really don’t care but was rather just commenting out of my waning interest in iron races.

He broke the Ironman Australia record by less than a minute. That’s the fact.

143

So you mean he didn’t break the record since previously the event was run on a completely different course but that record still somehow is applied on the new course as well?
Kiuru has the record on the old course and always will, but Wurf has the new record on the new course.

Well, obviously he broke “the record” but I thought we were debating whether it was by 22 sec or by 8 minutes??? Honestly, I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I don’t do iron races and I don’t even ride the bike anymore but rather I just swim and run. I really don’t care but was rather just commenting out of my waning interest in iron races.

He broke the Ironman Australia record by less than a minute. That’s the fact.

If you want to play semantics, he broke the IM Australia record (by name only) by less than a minute. He broke the current IM Australia course record by 8 minutes. Beating the record of the current course by 8 minutes is a significantly better achievement that the ‘name only’ record of 22 seconds. Your ‘fact’ is irrelevant to the significance of the time Wurf posted. The significance is to compare it to recent times on a ‘like for like’ basis to assess how good of a performance it was relative to the current competition. Your line of thought and argument is useless apart from trying to prove a point that adds no value to the conversation, now run along and go play with your toys.

144

I don’t think spandexboy’s questioning is actually idiotic. It is fact that former team Sky have a cloud of doubt hanging over their heads and there is a very big possibility if they were a smaller, less powerful team with less $ that cloud would have burst a great shit storm all over them by now. Is guilty by association a thing though? I guess in this case it could be more likely as Cam was a member of the team, not just a tag along for a few training rides. Here is the thing though, I have doubts over the pure cleanness of a few of the guys and girls in long course racing, even the short course ITU. I believe there are some who are in, what I would call, that grey zone

So, you and spandexboy do not know but it “feels” right? Insinuating that he may be doped because you simplu cannot know for sure that he is not is the equivalent of slander.

145

Plenty of people do it (I have multiple times, most recently a 2.42 six weeks out before running 3.12 IM. I am a proponent of this combo in fact.). .

that’s a pretty poor performance IMO… perhaps you should open your mind a little to what Dev is trying to say?

The drift or “index of resistance” that I assign is “about” 6-10 minutes per hour. 6 minutes is pretty exceptional, ie from race reports of AG athletes on here I would say that there are only a handful…or maybe 2 handfuls of people who can do that. 10 minutes is really good for a first timer.

I would say 90% of athletes at IM on race day don’t achieve that potential.

Caveats such as conditions/course on the day obviously apply.

Maurice

146

The point that both cyclists and rowers are notorious dopers…,at least historically and that he’s done both at a high level?

As a former rower and current cyclist, it’s not even in the same realm of notoriety. Rowers are not “notorious dopers.” For hard data, USADA has sanctioned 7 rowers since 2009. Cyclists? Around 160. (by my rough count).

East German / USSR rowing back in the 70’s-80’s. Sure. Today, not that much notoriety. I have no recollection of an Australian rower ever having been sanctioned for doping (there could be, just none comes to mind).

147

I don’t think spandexboy’s questioning is actually idiotic. It is fact that former team Sky have a cloud of doubt hanging over their heads and there is a very big possibility if they were a smaller, less powerful team with less $ that cloud would have burst a great shit storm all over them by now. Is guilty by association a thing though? I guess in this case it could be more likely as Cam was a member of the team, not just a tag along for a few training rides. Here is the thing though, I have doubts over the pure cleanness of a few of the guys and girls in long course racing, even the short course ITU. I believe there are some who are in, what I would call, that grey zone

I don’t think he ever was a member of the team while a professional cyclist. He is now associated with the team through his coach Tim Kerrison, and has been accepted as a member of the team as a result (going on training camps with them). But not sure if he’s actually an official member of Team Sky (can’t remember the new name)???

148

He broke the Ironman Australia record by less than a minute. That’s the fact.

If you want to play semantics, he broke the IM Australia record (by name only) by less than a minute. He broke the current IM Australia course record by 8 minutes. Beating the record of the current course by 8 minutes is a significantly better achievement that the ‘name only’ record of 22 seconds. Your ‘fact’ is irrelevant to the significance of the time Wurf posted. The significance is to compare it to recent times on a ‘like for like’ basis to assess how good of a performance it was relative to the current competition. Your line of thought and argument is useless apart from trying to prove a point that adds no value to the conversation, now run along and go play with your toys.

If you want to play semantics, the current course has a different run course at Port than it did when the record you are claiming was set.

I’ll go by what Ironman is saying as they run the sport. Not some hero on a forum with zero ability to say their record is more valid than Ironmans.

149

Was it under Kerrisons tutelage that a clean Froome beat the Lance/Pantani record up Ventoux by 35 seconds?

150
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151

The point that both cyclists and rowers are notorious dopers…,at least historically and that he’s done both at a high level?

As a former rower and current cyclist, it’s not even in the same realm of notoriety. Rowers are not “notorious dopers.” For hard data, USADA has sanctioned 7 rowers since 2009. Cyclists? Around 160. (by my rough count).

East German / USSR rowing back in the 70’s-80’s. Sure. Today, not that much notoriety. I have no recollection of an Australian rower ever having been sanctioned for doping (there could be, just none comes to mind).

I suppose notorious wrt rowing is wrong. This is entirely heresay, I’ll grant you that, but I had a trainer who was on the Hungarian rowing team (although she may have been Canoe, this was 15 years ago) who swore to me that rowing, canoeing, and kayaking were rife with PEDs. It’s entirely possible this was sour grapes on her part as she never won anything, but she seemed believable.

Your right though, notorious was not the right descriptor.

152

According to trirating the previous record was 8:14 and he broke it by 8 min

trirating is wrong
His time of eight hours, six minutes and 17 seconds just beat the event record of 8:06:39, set by Finnish legend Pauli Kiuru on the old Forster course in 1992.

I believe trirating is using the record for the current course, which was 8:14, not the '92 record on the old course. Opinions may vary but I think using the record for the current course is best. :slight_smile:
Ironman said he broke the course record. They own the sport and the record books.

If they say he broke the course record. He broke the record.

It’s like the any event in the Olympics. The IOC ratify world records. It’s their sport. Their rules.
Ironman is no different.

The IOC doesn’t ratify world records.

In athletics, it’s the IAAF. If an Olympic marathon course was set that’s not compliant with IAAF standards, no records can be set on that course, whatever the sway of the IOC.

153

I’d be surprised. I used to be coached by a former Romanian and then East German who broadly said, ‘if you are the first in my program to take drugs, you will be suspended. And then I will be the man to kill you’.
He’d been in Australia for about 25 years at that point, but the attitude to PEDs in Australia and the UK (the two systems I was exposed to) is hugely against, and tested a lot. On institute programs, I’d normally have had 2-4 OOC test per year, and the occasional in comp - even as a fringe guy who never made a senior NT and wasn’t on full whereabouts.

There are national programs I’m suspicious of - hard not to when athletes come out of nowhere and then disappear and when it has affected people who were near and dear to me - but broadly I think it’s a pretty boring and down the line sport, in a good way.

154

The IOC doesn’t ratify world records.

In athletics, it’s the IAAF. If an Olympic marathon course was set that’s not compliant with IAAF standards, no records can be set on that course, whatever the sway of the IOC.

correct. The owners of the SPORT ratify the World Record. Not some keyboard hero on slowtwits.

155

Was it under Kerrisons tutelage that a clean Froome beat the Lance/Pantani record up Ventoux by 35 seconds?

I thought the Ventoux record was set by Iban Mayo during the Dauphine Libere ventoux stage where they rode the newly paved road (at the time) from Bedouine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Ventoux

OK, I was correct, it was Mayo’s 55:51.

I mainly know/remember because I was at Ventoux a few weeks after that Dauphine to do my own ITT. I’ll try to find the results but it was Mayo-Hamiton-Floyd-Lance if I recall correctly.

Froome has not been anywhere close to these times.

Dev

156

OK I found it in the cyclingnews archive…

Stage 4, June 10, 2004, Dauphine Libere 2004…record prior to that was Vaughters from 1999 in 56:50:

Results1 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 55.51.49 (23.202 km/h) 2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.35.26 3 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.03.09 4 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.48.44 5 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.57.89 6 Inigo Landaluze (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 2.22.75 7 Jos� Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.44.09 8 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 3.21.18 9 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 3.33.38 10 St�phane Goubert (Fra) Ag2R Prevoyance 3.35.81 11 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.55.55 12 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis, le credit par Telephone 3.59.03 13 Cyril Dessel (Fra) Phonak Hearing Systems 4.03.20 14 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.09.14 15 Jos� Azevedo (Por) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.18.24 16 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 4.37.09 17 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick.Step-Davitamon 4.44.95 18 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 5.08.52 19 Sandy Casar (Fra) FDJeux.com 5.29.49 20 Victor Hugo Pena (Col) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 5.29.88

Stage 4 - June 10: Bédoin - Le Mont Ventoux ITT, 21.6 kmMayo motors to record breaking Ventoux performanceArmstrong surprising fifth atop Ventoux
By Tim Maloney, European Editor in Bedoin
Iban Mayo (Euskaltel-Euskadi)
Photo ©: CNhttp://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/stage4/ch_mayofinishs.jpg
On a warm clear day where the le Mont Ventoux lived up to its windy reputation, Iban Mayo (Euskaltel-Euskadi) scaled the Olympus of Provence with a record-breaking performance, pulverized Colorado climber Jonathan Vaughters’ five year old record of 56’50" by almost 1 minute and took back the race lead he captured at the Dauphin� prologue on Sunday in Meg�ve. And the much anticipated mano a mano with Mayo and Lance Armstrong didn’t materialize as the five time Tour de France champion was once again bested by his bete noir, Le Mont Ventoux.
“I thought Armstrong would be faster; I think it’s a big surprise and maybe he had a bad day,” said the happy Basque rider who now has command of the Dauphin�. Although he certainly wants to win in Grenoble on Sunday, Mayo is already looking past the Dauphin� to the Tour De France. “I want to recover well before the Tour and keep my fitness and my mental capacity as fresh as possible.”
Lance Armstrong (US Postal Service)
Photo ©: CNhttp://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/stage4/ch_armstrongs.jpg
Although USPS-Berry Floor team director Johan Bruyneel told Cyclingnews before Stage 4 that, “I don’t expect Lance to win today, Mayo is the favourite and maybe Hamilton”, Bruyneel told us post-stage that “I’m a little disappointed; not in Lance, but in the differences between him and Mayo. It shows are still not ready for the Tour. Lance did what he could today. Mayo beat the record by almost a minute which is an incredible performance.”
Jonathan Vaughters was on hand today to watch Iban Mayo smash his record and told Cyclingnews that “I expected my record to be broken today and I expected Mayo to do it.” Vaughters also thought that. “Mayo would put a lot of time into Armstrong and that as a result, (Lance) would be pretty worried.”
Armstrong lost five seconds per kilometre to Mayo today, which could be a sign that Lance doesn’t have the legs he’s had in previous years before the Tour. Or he could be pulling a rope-a-dope on the competition pre-Tour and not showing his game 100 percent.
Armstrong’s coach Chris Carmichael recently called Lance “the master of psychological warfare” and his less than all-out performance on the Ventoux , just measured out enough to test himself but not go “au bloc”, could fool his adversaries into thinking that Lance was in trouble. But with forty days still to go before the Tour De France’s crucial l’Alpe d’Huez mountain time trial, Armstrong must still be considered the overwhelming favourite to win.
Tyler Hamilton (Phonak)
Photo ©: AFPhttp://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/stage4/cycling-fra-dauphine-ham-17s.jpg
The runner-up to Mayo was Tyler Hamilton (Phonak), who also beat Vaughters record today. Once again, the Man from Marblehead showed his New England granite will and great legs on his new team. “We’re very happy with the way things went today”, said the pleased Phonak director Jacques Michaud, as his team put Hamilton in second, Sevilla in third and a total of five riders in the top 13.
As for Hamilton, he seems to be doing well with his new team and is clearly ready for the Tour de France. “It’s clear that Mayo is in top form now; he’s very strong. For me today, my time wasn’t as important as how I felt and I felt good…the sensations were positive. I came here to make two tests, the prologue and the TT and I was second in both of them.” As for his former teammate and Gerona neighbour Lance Armstrong, Hamilton said “He’s still the favourite for the Tour De France.”
With his wife Odessa and new puppy Bandit awaiting atop le Mont Ventoux, Levi Leipheimer (Rabobank) was an solid 8th place, but the Santa Rosa, CA. native was not very happy with his performance today. A disappointed Leipheimer told Cyclingnews that “It’s a little bit of a blow to the morale to get caught (by Oscar Sevilla), you know. I didn’t feel super today and I really suffered on the steep parts. I have a lot of work to do.”
His Rabobank teammate Michael “Chicken” Rasmussen was 9th, 0’12 behind Levi and was also disappointed today. “I was going good at the start, but probably had too much sugar in my bottle since I was getting stomach cramps. So I had two choices today: drink and get cramps, or not drink, so I didn’t take a bottle for the last 15km.”
Fourth American was Floyd Landis, who finished just 63 hundredths of a second over one hour in 14 spot. “Yeah, it was everything I expected today; Ventoux was long and hard and hot at the bottom. It went well for me; I felt good but it was nothing spectacular.”
Iban Mayo (Euskaltel)
Photo ©: AFPhttp://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/stage4/cycling-france-dauphine--22s.jpg
Tomorrow in the Village Depart in Bollene, Iban Mayo will be awarded his weight on the local Berlingots de Carpentras candy, but the ambitious Basque rider will have to be content with wearing the Maillot Jaune-Bleu leader’s jersey of the Crit�rium du Dauphin� Lib�r� into Grenoble. But with the Tour just over the horizon and two prestigious wins like l’Alpe d’Huez and now le Mont Ventoux under his belt, Iban Mayo and his Euskatel-Euskadi team will be looking to bring their winning ways to Paris on July 25th. But not if Lance Armstrong can help it.
Stage 5 - June 11: Bollene-Sisteron, 149km
With Iban Mayo back in the Maillot Jaune/Blue of the Criterium du Dauphin� Lib�r� lead, Euskaltel-Euskadi will be firmly in control on this transitional stage across the Vaucluse, Drome and into the Alps of Haute Provence.
Photography
Images by Chris Henry/Cyclingnews
The Giant of Provence looms large from the start in BedoinJean-Cyril Robin (FDJeux.com) rounds the final hairpin on Mont VentouxFrance’s darling, Richard Virenque (Quick.Step-Davitamon) didn’t wow the crowds with his ride on the VentouxSandy Casar (FDJeux.com) cracked the top 20 on Mont VentouxWalter Beneteau (Brioches La Boulangère) nears the summit, at lastChristophe Moreau (Crédit Agricole) put in a solid ride to finish 16thJuan Miguel Mercado (Quick.Step-Davitamon) held the lead for some time but missed out on the stage podiumDavid Moncoutié (Cofidis) fights his way to 12th place at the summitOscar Sevilla (Phonak) was the first rider to beat Jonathan Vaughters’ Ventoux recordLance Armstrong (US Postal Service) could only muster fifth best on the dayIban Mayo (Euskaltel-Euskadi) checks to see that his time is indeed the fastestIban Mayo (Euskaltel-Euskadi) gets an escort back to the podium after his winning ride
Images by AFP Photo
Iban Mayo (Euskaltel) looked smooth as he rode to the top in the day’s fastest timeIban Mayo (Euskaltel) nears the summit of VentouxRace leader Jose Enrique Gutierrez (Phonak) had a great ride to finish seventh, but it wasn’t enough to keep the leader’s jerseyTyler Hamilton (Phonak) gives it everythingOscar Sevilla (Phonak) battles his way up the mountainLance Armstrong (USPS-Berry Floor) powers up Ventoux, struggling in the heatIban Mayo (Euskaltel) is the new leader of the Dauphine Libere
Images by Russell Standring/grenoblecycling.free.fr
Lance Armstrong (US Postal-Berry Floor) passes Stuart O’Grady (Cofidis) before the Chalet Reynard on the steep slopes of Mont VentouxMikel Astarloza (Ag2R Prevoyance) fights with his bicycle on the Mont VentouxMatthew White (Cofidis) is wired up on the Mont VentouxBaden Cooke (FDJeux.com) on Mont Ventoux, two kilometres before the Chalet ReynardErik Dekker (Rabobank) would loose his mountains jersey to the day’s winner, Iban MayoAndy Flickinger (Ag2R Prevoyance) riding to finish just inside the time limit on the Mont VentouxTyler Hamilton (Phonak Hearing Systems) digs deep to ride to second place on the Mont VentouxGeorge Hincapie (US Postal-Berry Floor) riding to 33rd place on the Mont VentouxKarsten Kroon (Rabobank) would be eliminated for finishing outside the time limit on the Mont VentouxLevi Leipheimer (Rabobank) riding to eighth place on the Mont VentouxIban Mayo (Euskaltel-Euskadi) on his way to winning on the Mont Ventoux with a record timeDavid Millar (Cofidis) on the Mont VentouxDavid Moncoutie (Cofidis) riding to 12th place on the Mont VentouxThe winner the previous day, Nicolas Portal (Ag2R Prevoyance) on the Mont VentouxCarlos Sastre (Team CSC) riding to 18th place on the Mont VentouxDetermination from Nicki Sorensen (Team CSC) in hot conditions on the Mont VentouxThe rider’s view of the Mont Ventoux in the early kilometres of the time-trial from Bedoin.Race leader Jos� Gutierrez (Phonak Hearing Systems) riding to seventh place on the Mont Ventoux
Images by Philippe/velopalmares.free.fr
Nicki S�rensen (Team CSC)Joseba Albizu (Euskaltel-Euskadi)David Millar (Cofidis)Bert Grabsch (Phonak)Iker Flores (Euskaltel-Euskadi)Floyd Landis (US Postal)Erik Dekker (Rabobank)Dimitri Muravyev (Credit Agricole)Jorg Jaksche (Team CSC)Jose Azevedo (US Postal)Levi Leiphemer (Rabobank)Lance Armstrong (US Postal)Lance Armstrong (US Postal)Tyler Hamilton (Phonak)

157

I meant in 2013 Froome biked up ventoux 25seconds faster than armstrong-pantani…