Reading the ST link to the forum comment, 90% of that is time tested common sense from decades ago for completely normal folks. Not even athletes.
But going back to the study, I don’t believe that you can have different outcomes from the same # of calories is “common sense.” Or it wasn’t. Maybe it’s starting to become common sense.
There’ve been a number of studies now that provide evidence (to avoid sophistry from @Trauma) that suggest a good diet takes more consideration than the “it’s just thermodynamics” crowd (which has a mafia on this forum). E.g. this one from February where diet quality also provided a positive outcome with no consideration of calorie count.
Hormones FTW.
Insulin, Leptin, and Ghrelin make a difference. What and when you eat can influence them.
Known as time-restricted feeding, or TRF, the approach is simple: Eat more or less what you want, but don’t consume anything before or after the allotted time.
Leaving aside this was rats and not humans…
Did the rats really eat more or less what they wanted, I kind of doubt it?
So not only are we crossing species here, I doubt the rat diet really mimics a human eating more or less what they wanted.
Rule #9: For every PT/MD/STer who says there is absolutely one single and perfect way to do anything , there is *another *PT/MD/STer who will say that way of doing whatever it may be, is completely and absolutely bullshit
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Reading the ST link to the forum comment, 90% of that is time tested common sense from decades ago for completely normal folks. Not even athletes.
But going back to the study, I don’t believe that you can have different outcomes from the same # of calories is “common sense.” Or it wasn’t. Maybe it’s starting to become common sense.
There’ve been a number of studies now that provide evidence (to avoid sophistry from @Trauma) that suggest a good diet takes more consideration than the “it’s just thermodynamics” crowd (which has a mafia on this forum). E.g. this one from February where diet quality also provided a positive outcome with no consideration of calorie count.
While it is true that there is no mention of calorie counting per se, the participants were on a “healthy diet” so presumably they were at the very least watching the amount of food they were eating. The main point of this study appears to be that there was no sig diff between the effects of a low-fat diet vs a low carb diet. While is is no doubt true that eating so called “healthy food” fills a person up with fewer calories, at the end of the day a calorie is still a calorie. IMO, eat whatever you want but watch very closely how many cals you are consuming.
“In this randomized clinical trial among 609 overweight adults, weight change over 12 months was not significantly different for participants in the healthy low fat (HLF) diet group (−5.3 kg) vs the healthy low carb (HLC) diet group (−6.0 kg), and there was no significant diet-genotype interaction or diet-insulin interaction with 12-month weight loss.”
. IMO, eat whatever you want but watch very closely how many cals you are consuming.
That’s the thing, though. In the study there were zero instructions about calorie watching.
From a NYT interview of the PI,:
“A couple weeks into the study people were asking when we were going to tell them how many calories to cut back on,†he said. “And months into the study they said, ‘Thank you! We’ve had to do that so many times in the past.’â€
But the population did quite well in losing weight, as a whole. Some by 50-60lbs.
I’ll say one thing from experience doing intermittent fasting…
if you dont eat enough during that window and you are consistently too low on calories while training for an ironman, you will pay for it with every symptom that typically comes across as “over training”
Where’s the actual paper making this claim? From the WP article, it doesn’t seem like it was ever published (hmm…).
I’d be interested in the controls ensuring that mice actually ate the same amount of calories; 28% WEIGHT difference (not weight reduction) implies a substantial difference in net burn.
So has anyone gotten this to work while doing daily doubles? I train early in the am and late pm and fasting would mean I wouldn’t get protein after one of the workouts. Now I know that Desert Dude says you can eat efter a workout, but that ruins the entire point of intermittent fasting. I got some recommendations from people saying you can do only amino acids till lunch, and the break fast from lunch but haven’t tried yet. I’m at around 4-5kkcal/day
Science doesn’t prove anything… Science fails to disprove things, which strengthens the possibility that things might be true. So what you’re actually saying is that science failed to prove that this diet was not effective, which suggests that it might be effective (in the population that they tested, with the constraints that they imposed…).
Wow, you must be fun at parties.
He’s also correct
Bots don’t eat
Weight loss is a math equation, calories in vs. calories out.
Sure, but that may be better as a description than a prescription. It seems that calorie tracking may not be a particularly useful way to try to lose weight for most people. It appears that focusing on things like food quality and timing may be more effective.
. IMO, eat whatever you want but watch very closely how many cals you are consuming.
That’s the thing, though. In the study there were zero instructions about calorie watching.
From a NYT interview of the PI,:
“A couple weeks into the study people were asking when we were going to tell them how many calories to cut back on,†he said. “And months into the study they said, ‘Thank you! We’ve had to do that so many times in the past.’â€
But the population did quite well in losing weight, as a whole. Some by 50-60lbs.
Well, maybe they are onto something here but i think we’ll need many more studies to truly verify this principle that you just need to “eat healthy” but not watch your calories. Also, while some may have lost 50-60 lb, the mean values were 5.3-6.0 kg, or about 11.7 to 13.2 lb, which is not a large amount to lose over 12 months, espec given that the mean participant was about 5’6.6" and 207 lb to start out.
I thought this was proved a long time ago and not sure where Desert Dude got his info but I first read it in Body, Mind and Sport by John Douillard published in 1994 and he follows his advice exactly. Basically his explanation your body comes out of a cleanse and recovery mode on waking and by lunch time your metabolism is at it’s peak and you should be having your most calories and by night your metabolism shuts down and your body goes into a cleanse and recover mode during sleep.
Brad Wiggins wouldn’t eat breakfast until having sat on a trainer to get his metabolism going in the morning as not to put on weight.
I watched the episode of the controlled group in the article below and everyone that had breakfast 90 min later and dinner 90 min earlier lost weight eating their same meals.
Science doesn’t prove anything… Science fails to disprove things, which strengthens the possibility that things might be true. So what you’re actually saying is that science failed to prove that this diet was not effective, which suggests that it might be effective (in the population that they tested, with the constraints that they imposed…).
So has anyone gotten this to work while doing daily doubles? I train early in the am and late pm and fasting would mean I wouldn’t get protein after one of the workouts. Now I know that Desert Dude says you can eat efter a workout, but that ruins the entire point of intermittent fasting. I got some recommendations from people saying you can do only amino acids till lunch, and the break fast from lunch but haven’t tried yet. I’m at around 4-5kkcal/day
I do IF. I Do 16-8, with two 18-6 days a week. Depending on the workout day, I will break the fast after a big morning workout. So I might actually do the fast protocol 4-5 days a week.
Again, it depends on the workout. I don’t break the fast after swimming and rarely after running. But if I do a brick or multiple hour bike ride, I will eat breakfast after the workout. I will run up to 13 miles w/o breaking the fast.
I only break the fast for recovery and injury prevention, not out of hunger. As for the hunger, I have conditioned myself to accept and not feel the hunger after working out and can make it 5 more hours till lunch time.
Now what does get me are evening workouts. I have a hard time in the evenings even though I have already ate. It’s weird, but I have plenty of energy in the morning before eating.
I eat very clean. Lots of veggies, lean protein, like 100 eggs a week, complex carbs, healthy fats. No sugar and no alcohol.
Science doesn’t prove anything… Science fails to disprove things, which strengthens the possibility that things might be true. So what you’re actually saying is that science failed to prove that this diet was not effective, which suggests that it might be effective (in the population that they tested, with the constraints that they imposed…).
Wow, you must be fun at parties.
He’s also correct
Bots don’t eat
Seriously?
What is the point of this post?
It is true for the closed thermodynamic systems. Live humans are - fortunately - not closed systems.
Sure we are, the body itself is a closed system which takes in air and food as fuel for bodily maintenance and work output. All calories taken in must be used somehow and if you don’t burn them off, then they become fat. They sure as hell don’t just evaporate or get taken away by some as of yet undiscovered bodily process.
Further, one other thought on the “all you need to do is eat healthy” theory, and now this is just “anecdotal”, but I know it must have happened to many STers as well as myself. Every single time we have a birthday lunch for someone in my office, which is about once a month or around 120 in past 10 yrs, at least 1 if not 3 or 4 people, who are invariably overweight, will scold me about eating too much of X, Y, and/or Z. When i remark that I swam 4000 m this morning and plan a 30 mi bike/4 mi run after work, they say “well, you still shouldn’t be eating that fatty/high sugar food”. Of course, as i said, these guys/girls are always overweight if not obese and they never seem to lose any weight, so their “healthy eating” does not seem to be working.
