Chrabot/Sanders Swim

Triathlon Forum
74

Flanagan swam a 47-something that year and was first out of the swim. He and Potts were over two minutes faster than the next group out of the water. Do you really think Flanagan sacrificed his swim or slowed down for Potts?

When a guy is swimming backstroke in the Ironman World Championships, which Flanagan did a few times and it was remarked upon in the online broadcast, I think it is reasonable to think he is sacrificing his own swim for someone or something else, yes.

The biggest difference I can see is that Flanagan and Potts were faster.

None of this is to say that I necessarily think that it is either right or policeable to give penalties for this, but it does seem like the same thing to me.

75

Sheeesh. So many people losing sleep over what? An hour-PLUS swim?

76

Flanagan swam a 47-something that year and was first out of the swim. He and Potts were over two minutes faster than the next group out of the water. Do you really think Flanagan sacrificed his swim or slowed down for Potts?

When a guy is swimming backstroke in the Ironman World Championships, which Flanagan did a few times and it was remarked upon in the online broadcast, I think it is reasonable to think he is sacrificing his own swim for someone or something else, yes.

The biggest difference I can see is that Flanagan and Potts were faster.

None of this is to say that I necessarily think that it is either right or policeable to give penalties for this, but it does seem like the same thing to me.

I’m from Oahu, so I’ve seen Flanagan swim a lot. In every open water swim I’ve ever seen him do, he swims backstroke to check where he is in relation to his competition. And the difference is absolutely that they were faster. That’s kind of the point of the rule and the discussion - one competitor slowing down immensely for the benefit of the race ambitions of another competitor.

77

“why is one type of pacing is ok and the other kind not?”

it call comes down to a preposition: with or for. when you’re working with someone, and you each have as the goal your own best performance, that’s okay as long as you obey the rule (draft zone, etc.). when your purpose in the race is to work for someone, that’s when you run afoul of the rules.

does this help? or did you already know this and you’re asking WHY it’s not okay for one person to have as his race ambition working for somebody else?
[/q
i am saying that it appears that a lot of people seem to think that the rule is not up to date given the dynamics and participation numbers in the sport, which dosnt really make it an individual event anymore.
ie it is a sport that is closer or as close to stage cycling ( where domestiques are essential) than an indivdual sport .
and if people are allowed to work with each other, somebody is likely being at a disadvantage, so why should this person not be able to outbalance this disadvantage
you did not give that option in the poll so the closest one to this is saying its legal and fine .

personally i see it its more a bigger picture question, to decide whats right .
if we keep the field as big as it is than we probably have to change the rules.
or we make the field smaller , increase the non drafting zone to 20 meter have even bigger gaps between males females and age grouper starts. and do give penalties, if we feel someobdy subordiantes ones race ( i think a DQ is too harsh as a penalty for something that is not that easy to call )

78

When a guy is swimming backstroke in the Ironman World Championships, which Flanagan did a few times and it was remarked upon in the online broadcast, I think it is reasonable to think he is sacrificing his own swim for someone or something else, yes. //

I think that you are just not familiar with OW swimming. Just like cycling, athletes take a look back when they are leading to see what is going on behind them. Looking back is not real practical on a breath, so backstroke is the preferred method. And Flanagan was going for the course record that day, that was his goal in the race, or ambition. What he wanted to know looking back was there going to have to be an all out sprint at the finish, or do I have to get on the inside line to the steps ahead of time, or all the other things that go through a persons mind in a sprint finish in any sport.

If he rolled and no one was there, he could rest his mind and just drill the swim at a steady pace. But having to win a sprint at the end changes everything. Keep in mind he probably felt he could have been on record pace, so he had to also be the winner of the race, just not under the pace. Very important things to know.

And I watched that race several times, and that is exactly what happened, and he did all those things he needed to at the end to just barley win. Potts was happy for the ride, as he had almost always had to lead that swim up until that race. Probably wishes that he had a couple more that could actually ride, as all it did was dangle him like a carrot for the lead pack. But in his mind he probably just figured he would be swimming the same effort, sitting on fast feet, or leading another group, so he took the best option. Make someone else pull back in the pack, and give himself some breathing room before the big group comes up. He is a very smart and tactical guy.

79

“i am saying that it appears that a lot of people seem to think that the rule is not up to date given the dynamics and participation numbers in the sport, which doesn’t really make it an individual event anymore.”

i appreciate that. those people you speak of, while making up a sizable number, are probably not representative of a majority. i don’t want to sound imperious, but a lot of us built you a sport. you’ve inherited the sport we built. in some cases, those who came along later morphed the sport into their own version, like the ITU. great. but when you change the sport we built for you (and for ourselves) you have to convince the rest of us that your change is the better way.

i’m all for new iterations of the sport. xterra, otillo, draft-legal AG tri, itu-style, i don’t think there’s a style of triathlon where i haven’t said great! bring it! but when you want to take the kind of iconic triathlon that we first all introduced in the last 70s and early 80s, which is first and foremost an individual sport, and change it into a team sport, you’re going to probably have to bring the rest of us to your point of view.

otherwise, if you just decide it’s a team sport and race it that way you’re going to get your feelings hurt when you and your buddy get DQd, if in fact it turns out you paid your entry only to be your buddy’s domestique.

80

I have read the thread, as I know you have read many of Barrie’s posts, and know his background. On the balance, Barrie is way more out of line here, as compared to Matt, despite good PR and a well timed apology. As I said, I agree wholeheartedly with your post re: Matt.

However some decisions are better not made than apologized for, especially if the person knew better, which Barrie most certainly did. I’d expect you to not give Barrie a pass, just because he’s a potentate in the tri world, and do so publicly, as you have here with Matt.

E

“I agree with everything you say here, and wish you would expend some of this firepower on Barrie publicly as well as/instead of Matt publicly.”

i have no problem confronting barrie on this pubicly but did you read barrie’s most recent post? it was straight-up, man-up, bad decision, my decision, i take full responsibility. that solved it, for me, as did lionel’s post.

i have no reason to think matt is anything but the same kind of straight-up, man-up kind of person that i believe barrie and lionel to be. it’s just that both barrie and lionel, maybe upon reflection, had a chance to contemplate a decision that in retrospect was ill-conceived. welcome to the club! do you want me to list all of my ill-conceived decisions, many of which played out in public? how much time have you got?

i did this race when matt chrabot was minus-2 years old. i’ve invested a lot in this race as so many people have. this specific issue has been a recurrent one. it would be nice to just put this to bed once and for all (i thought we did). if you look at the opinion piece i wrote on this today on the home page, a “related article” link at the bottom of that article is another one from 2011, almost exactly the same. this has been a recurring problem in kona since the 1980s, just not a very public one.

maybe this is a good opportunity to just have it out about this issue (lionel seems to think he was getting paced, whether or not matt thinks he was an active pacer). it’s clear that there is a lot of disagreement about the legality of this, but it’s not a matter of opinion. those who feel this behavior is legal are naive or misinformed, or i worded the poll badly. pacing is not legal. it is against both pro and AG rules, but it is doubly against the pro rules because they’re bound by both the pro and the USAT rules, i.e., the rules are cumulative, not either/or, unless ironman specifically asked for and was granted an abatement from the USAT rules.

81

The lord has given you these 15, Oy, 10 commandments!

82

i understand your view. still, this is an issue that we’ve dealt with as a sport for a long time, just not very effectively. at least not to my satisfaction. doping, course cutting, blatant drafting, we’re pretty good on that. the crimes are punished.

this, no. i don’t know that anybody has ever actually received a penalty for this. so i’d rather fix the problem than fix the blame. if we’re actually at a point where officials can start to penalize for it rather than be privately upset about it, then i’d like to focus on this.

we have to get past these questions of “how do you prove it.” how do you prove drafting happened? it’s up to the official’s judgment. yes! bingo! same thing here. when i’m in the pro men’s wave, i get out of the water, and i pedal 16mph until my GF comes along and all of a sudden i catch my second wind and suddenly begin to pedal 26mph (right in front of her), bam. penalty. can i prove intent? i don’t have to prove intent. i proved:

  1. proximity
  2. change in speed

if i am capable of swimming like a fish but i swim like a rock, and i perform that swim precisely in front of someone else who swims like a rock, i’ve got proximity and change in speed, except in this case the change in speed is the change from what everyone knows i can swim to a speed very, very unlike anything i’ve swum after the age of 9.

i have no problem making this call. if an official has a problem making this call, we need to not have that official at these races. somebody needs to tell husbands, love your wives, but stay the hell away from them during the race. have a tearful reunion just on the other side of the finish line. likewise brother/brother or buddy/buddy.

i’m not going to be a hard ass about it. if a 40-ish year old husband and wife find themselves out on the course at the same time and they’re keeping each other company as they’re on their way to a 14hr ironman finish, fine. but at the pointy end, no, you can’t have these premeditated meet-ups for the purpose of one person aiding the other person. it’s not fair to the rest of the field who are actually racing as individuals.

but i’m willing to give everyone a do-over. barrie included. everybody gets the benefit of the doubt. i’m nelson mandela and this is the reconciliation commission. we’re all big buddies again. no demerits. just, in my opinion, if you ask me what i’d like to see, now that we have the sport’s attention, from here on in this shit stops.

83

I have been looking at this from the standpoint of someone bringing suit before the US Supreme Court. First thing they’ll decide is…does this person/entity have standing (whether their case is grounded or not).

Dan’s POV changed that. Great post.

84

just, in my opinion, if you ask me what i’d like to see, now that we have the sport’s attention, from here on in this shit stops.

I agree with everything you said, with one qualification: The “shit” that stops is three things: the behavior of athletes, the ambiguity of the rules, and of guys like Barry Siff and Barrie Sheply pulling that JV crap that they pulled, which could have totally ruined a young athlete’s career and might still perhaps negatively affect Matt Chrabot.

85

So pick your team mates as not to look too suspicious?

I still think you could have collusion, just not as blatant as before. So the potential problem still exists.

86

i understand your view. still, this is an issue that we’ve dealt with as a sport for a long time, just not very effectively. at least not to my satisfaction. doping, course cutting, blatant drafting, we’re pretty good on that. the crimes are punished.

this, no. i don’t know that anybody has ever actually received a penalty for this. so i’d rather fix the problem than fix the blame. if we’re actually at a point where officials can start to penalize for it rather than be privately upset about it, then i’d like to focus on this.

we have to get past these questions of “how do you prove it.” how do you prove drafting happened? it’s up to the official’s judgment. yes! bingo! same thing here. when i’m in the pro men’s wave, i get out of the water, and i pedal 16mph until my GF comes along and all of a sudden i catch my second wind and suddenly begin to pedal 26mph (right in front of her), bam. penalty. can i prove intent? i don’t have to prove intent. i proved:

  1. proximity
  2. change in speed

if i am capable of swimming like a fish but i swim like a rock, and i perform that swim precisely in front of someone else who swims like a rock, i’ve got proximity and change in speed, except in this case the change in speed is the change from what everyone knows i can swim to a speed very, very unlike anything i’ve swum after the age of 9.

i have no problem making this call. if an official has a problem making this call, we need to not have that official at these races. somebody needs to tell husbands, love your wives, but stay the hell away from them during the race. have a tearful reunion just on the other side of the finish line. likewise brother/brother or buddy/buddy.

i’m not going to be a hard ass about it. if a 40-ish year old husband and wife find themselves out on the course at the same time and they’re keeping each other company as they’re on their way to a 14hr ironman finish, fine. but at the pointy end, no, you can’t have these premeditated meet-ups for the purpose of one person aiding the other person. it’s not fair to the rest of the field who are actually racing as individuals.

but i’m willing to give everyone a do-over. barrie included. everybody gets the benefit of the doubt. i’m nelson mandela and this is the reconciliation commission. we’re all big buddies again. no demerits. just, in my opinion, if you ask me what i’d like to see, now that we have the sport’s attention, from here on in this shit stops.

Dan, how does an official know who swims what speed? Maybe US based official in Kona knows the faces and bodies of most of the top pros…but let’s say Matt and Lionel or Sebastien and Tyler show up say IM Malaysia or Taiwan, how does the local official know what Matt or Tyler is capable of? They can’t. That’s the hard part in enforcing and where the officials hands get tied even though it MAY look like pacing…you can’t say for sure. We still need the rule as a deterrent, but enforcement is hard…and even though the enforcement is close to impossible, does not mean we should get rid of the rule, because if nothing else, peers can keep one another honest and that alone might be the most strong deterrent. If you have the rule and peers know they can’t pace one another, can’t pace buddies, can’t pace brothers, sisters, spouse etc, then this alone is great starting point. I don’t think we need to analyse it much further…keep the rule and let the peers self enforce and if they catch wind, they just need to alert officials that it is going on. Fear of a DQ should be enough.

87

Did you ever come over to the southeast to race at say Gulf Coast, Memphis in May, St Anthony’s, or Hilton Head??? //
Most all those races coincided with a big pro race here on the west coast, so unfortunately I really never got to do some of the iconic ones. I did do Hilton head a few times when it was the USTS championship in the mid and late 80’s. For a flat course it was surprisingly challenging. Usually the swim was into some big head current, and often a little surf too. As I recall the ride had lots of turns, and most of the roads open to traffic back then too. And of course the heat and humidity, that was always a given there, just like here in Kona.
I remember one race there I flatted with about 7 miles to go and opted to just ride the rim. Think I only lost about 30 seconds on the lead group that i was with when it punctured, so ended up a good call to just ride it. Of course had to call up HED and get another wheel, but I think i got like 6th and cashed pretty good that day. Reading about Ryf and her late race flat brought back that memory of that race. Of course i was on sew ups on a flat course, not sure what she was riding, but certainly a couple hills and turns to contend with, but only for something like 2k it was? Thats manageable on anything, and beats the hell out of wasting time changing it.

Well, it certainly makes sense to race closer to home. I’ve never had a flat in a race but i was in one running road race where the course was not marked clearly at all, and about 6 or 8 of us followed the leader off-course. In that case, no adjustment, or even apology, was made by the RD; apparently we were supposed to have all the (many) turns memorized:)

88

Agree with eric…
Especially Barry and Barrie should have so much more integrity than that. A real black eye.

just, in my opinion, if you ask me what i’d like to see, now that we have the sport’s attention, from here on in this shit stops.

I agree with everything you said, with one qualification: The “shit” that stops is three things: the behavior of athletes, the ambiguity of the rules, and of guys like Barry Siff and Barrie Sheply pulling that JV crap that they pulled, which could have totally ruined a young athlete’s career and might still perhaps negatively affect Matt Chrabot.

89

No, but when you pick your teammates, you make it clear that you are sharing the work in order to improve your mutual overall chances, and you expect that person to work their keister off for the best possible overall placing.

90

Jordan seems very active on this topic. Anything to do with Chrabot complaining to his agent after a penalty Jordan got him at Arizona?

Seems like some want to keep this topic alive due to old bad blood.

Indeed, I don’t remember an op-ed or a poll on Rapp’s bike ‘tactics’

Everyone knows “The Wrap” is perfectly legal and legitimate. (Where did I leave my pink font)

91

I still think you could have collusion, just not as blatant as before. So the potential problem still exists.

Sure. This is absolutely true. But does the fact that you can’t perfectly solve a problem mean you give up on trying to solve it at all? Drafting still happens, but we have not yet abolished that rule and declared races the wild, wild west. Doping still happens, but we haven’t yet called a free-for-all.

92

“Dan, how does an official know who swims what speed?”

would you be throwing up all these roadblocks if it was course cutting? look, we’re not going to catch all course cutters and dopers. but we can catch some. we can put people on alert. we can penalize it when we obviously see it.

93

it’s called “gamesmanship”, like when Tiger Woods makes somebody putt from 2 feet in match play or Michael Jordan rolls the ball into the corner instead of handing it to the ref after a mega awesome dunk
.