The 13 year old kid thing was learned from one of the total immersion cult books (can't remember which one). I think the average time mentioned in the book was actually 24 minutes (which seems fast to me for a kid).

As for MOP averages, that 27-30 minute range is a standard average time for my age group based on local olympic distance results the last few years. You can check those out online.

"the OP said that there are exceptions, of course, but in any case "not swimming competitively until college" (which could imply learning to swim at 6 and going to the pool all summer long every summer) can not compare to "not being able to swim AT ALL and never having been higher than chest-level in the water until 30+", which I think is what we're discussing here."

I thought were were discussing why "swimmers (are) so uptight about the use of wetsuits"? :)

I'd be willing to be that all those exceptions that you will find are of people that have dedicated hundreds of hours and hundreds of thousands of yards in the pool. I don't remember what Gordo Byrn swam in his first year at Canada, but it was relatively slow - certainly in line with an average age grouper. I think he's around 50 minutes for an IM time now? I don't know if had experience being more than chest-level in the water until he was 30, but certainly he improved his swim time enough to go from an average time to a good time.

Perhaps kids have more time during the summers to spend time in an age group program than adults that have to work a full time job? Or maybe kids are more willing to learn to practice something that they're not good at than adults do? I can believe both of those things. But I don't believe that there is something physiological that prevents adults from doing it. Maybe you do, in which case we can agree to disagree.

Yep...

Swimming technique is more critical. However, it can also be learned, in the same way that good Time-Trialing technique can be learned. The POINT is that the swim is already relegated to a far inferior position than the other disciplines, - see my post above. A Triathlon is a Triathlon, not a biathlon then a wimpy swim. Pushing the swim part to a too inferior position reduces and dimishes the race. It also makes it less of a "feat;" - especially when compared to a marathon or an 110 mile time trial...

The historical organization of Triathlons was not to attract more people to the sport, - but to create an amazing sport, - wherein it exists BECAUSE it is hard, and it takes a SPECIAL athlete to master 3 sports, - not just two. When you have triathletes calling themselves "non-swimmers" it diminishes them and it diminishes all of us, and it diminishes the sport....

If anything, we should be making the sport HARDER, - not easier. Why not increase the swim distance and DECREASE the run and bike? No one advocates that; why? When you take a world class swimmer, - she can swim the Iron Man distance in 45 minutes. Compare that to the bike and the run...

efernand's point is exactly it

if people need to use a wet suit for what ever reason let them - but there has to be some level that says - a wet suit is not supposed to be an instrument to "level the playing field between good and bad swimmers" or "a wet suite is not to be used as a tool that give unfair advantage to slower swimmers over faster swimmers"

SO - set a temp - I like 69 degrees my self - if the temp is below everyone can wear the wet suit and the race goes on - if the temp is above - people in the first waves and compeating for places cannot wear a wet suite - anyone who wants to wear the wet suit can but will be place in a later wave starting 10 minutes after the last non-wet suite wave and the wet suit people do not compeate for places.

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

2006 King's Swim Results (top half of finishers)

This is a 1.2 mile swim at Kailua pier. Notice how many 11-14 year olds are in the mix, including 3rd finisher overall. 1st overall is a teenage girl.

The second time is their mile pace. There were no wetsuits.


1 Rachael Meisner 15 - 18 F Kealakekua, HI :24:51 20:42
2 Mike McCary 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :24:53 20:44
3 Nicholas Garrett 11 - 14 Kailua Kona, Hi :24:57 20:47
4 Kevin Flanagan 25 - 29 Honolulu, HI :25:02 20:51
5 Bob Momsen 55 - 59 Kamuela, HI :25:07 20:55
6 Brian Kohlmeier 35 - 39 San Jose, CA :25:21 21:07
7 Tanya Everts 30 - 34 F Kailua-Kona, HI :26:09 21:47
8 Alyssa Foo 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :26:10 21:48
9 Keahi Parker 15 - 18 Holualoa, HI :26:12 21:50
10 Jim Mellon 40 - 44 Hilo, HI :26:15 21:52
11 Ed Doherty 35 - 39 Kamuela, HI :26:18 21:55
12 Leilani Fallau 15 - 18 F Kamuela, HI :26:27 22:02
13 Kaikua Nakachi 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :26:29 22:04
14 Nathaniel Goodale 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :26:34 22:08
15 Aaron Estess 15 - 18 Kailua-Kona, HI :26:43 22:15
16 Amanda Hamilton 15 - 18 F Kailua Kona, HI :26:46 22:18
17 Noe Vargas 15 - 18 F Kamuela, HI :26:48 22:20
18 Kelsey Christopher 15 - 18 F Kailua-Kona, HI :26:51 22:22
19 Linda Finley 40 - 44 F Kamuela, HI :26:59 22:29
20 Luis De La Torre 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :27:25 22:50
21 Matt Hamilton 15 - 18 Kailua Kona, HI :27:32 22:56
22 Logan Borowski 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :27:34 22:58
23 Aimee Kolman 35 - 39 F Kealakekua, HI :27:36 23:00
24 Tomcat Sena 55 - 59 Holualoa, HI :27:38 23:01
25 Mike Geary 40 - 44 Kailua-Kona, HI :27:40 23:03
26 Mike Heher 50 - 54 Capt Cook, HI :27:41 23:04
27 Andy Schmid 30 - 34 HI :27:44 23:06
28 Christine Winn 40 - 44 F Kailua-Kona, HI :27:50 23:11
29 Michael Mullahey 30 - 34 Kailua-Kona, HI :28:20 23:36
30 Jourdan Cline 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :28:26 23:41
31 Ky Foo 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :28:31 23:45
32 Matty Cunningham 30 - 34 Kailua-Kona, HI :28:32 23:46
33 Matthew Vanborg 15 - 18 Honaunau, HI :28:41 23:54
34 Barry Francis 50 - 54 Kailua-Kona, HI :28:43 23:55
35 Shasta Montgomery 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :28:48 24:00
36 Steve Halsey 50 - 54 Kailua-Kona, HI :28:55 24:05
37 Niki Nakagauoa 15 - 18 F Kamuela, HI :29:05 24:14
38 Buki Hudson 40 - 44 F Holualoa, HI :29:07 24:15
39 Chelsea Nora 15 - 18 F Holualoa, HI :29:09 24:17
40 Caleb Kirn 15 - 18 Kailua-Kona, HI :29:12 24:20
41 Ashley Hauanio 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :29:13 24:20
42 Antonita Sena 40 - 44 F Holualoa, HI :29:16 24:23
43 Scott Santo 50 - 54 Keauhou, HI :29:20 24:26
44 Tyler Foster 15 - 18 Kailua-Kona, HI :29:22 24:28
45 Nicki Enos 35 - 39 F Kailua-Kona, HI :29:26 24:31
46 Lindsay Resetnikov 25 - 29 F Kailua-Kona, HI :29:26 24:31
47 Linda Bless 40 - 44 F Kailua-Kona, HI :29:28 24:33
48 Kela Vargas 11 - 14 F Kamuela, HI :29:33 24:37
49 Thad Calciolari 45 - 49 Kamuela, HI :29:35 24:39
50 Lumumba Lynch 40 - 44 Kamuela, HI :29:37 24:40
51 Stephanie Boeckmanne 15 - 18 F Kailua-Kona, HI :29:51 24:52
52 Dan Goltz 35 - 39 Volcano, HI :30:02 25:01
53 Akahai Lazarus 11 - 14 Kamuela, HI :30:04 25:03
54 Anthony Ganuelas 11 - 14 Kealakekua, HI :30:05 25:04
55 Devyn Park 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :30:10 25:08
56 J K Spielman 45 - 49 Kamuela, HI :30:13 25:10
57 Kyle Katase 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :30:18 25:15
58 Kaitlin Saunders 19 - 24 F Kailua-Kona, HI :30:25 25:20
59 Flint Hughes 40 - 44 Hilo, HI :30:36 25:30
60 Rivera Aleja 30 - 34 F Hilo, HI :30:38 25:31
61 Tara Valentine 35 - 39 F Kamuela, HI :30:42 25:35
62 Rikki Omija 11 - 14 F Honaunau, HI :30:44 25:36
63 Lisa Young 40 - 44 F Kailua-Kona, HI :30:45 25:37
64 Dane Enos 45 - 49 Kailua-Kona, HI :30:47 25:39
65 Patrick Mclain 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :30:52 25:43
66 Paul Carney 50 - 54 Waikola, HI :30:57 25:47
67 Patti Kimball 50 - 54 F Kailua Kona, HI :31:12 26:00
68 Bhillie Luciani 11 - 14 F Kamuela, HI :31:14 26:01
69 Kelly Haspe 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :31:17 26:04
70 Macey Santos 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :31:19 26:05
71 Neil Samson 19 - 24 Keaau, HI :31:22 26:08
72 Tim Cotter 55 - 59 :31:24 26:10
73 Jeff Sacher 50 - 54 Kamuela, HI :31:25 26:10
74 Mary Spears 45 - 49 F Kamuela, HI :32:11 26:49
75 Darren Stieff 35 - 39 Newhall, CA :32:18 26:55
76 Douglass Dierenfield 55 - 59 Kailua-Kona, HI :32:19 26:55
77 David Casas 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :32:25 27:00
78 Kaeti Ecker 55 - 59 F Keauhou, HI :32:26 27:01
79 Allyson Fujii 15 - 18 F Kamuela, HI :32:28 27:03
80 Summer Borowski 15 - 18 F Kailua-Kona, HI :32:29 27:04
81 Janine Packett 50 - 54 F Kamuela, HI :32:30 27:05
82 Madison Hauanio 10 & Under F Kailua-Kona, HI :32:32 27:06
83 Kaleo Hauanio 40 - 44 Kailua-Kona, HI :32:39 27:12
84 Jahn Sawinski 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :32:44 27:16
85 Lisa Parsell 50 - 54 F Kailua-Kona, HI :32:47 27:19
86 Max Barreto 11 - 14 Kamuela, HI :32:50 27:21
87 Nancye Capri 50 - 54 F Holualoa, HI :32:52 27:23
88 Reiko Sekine 45 - 49 F Kailua-Kona, HI :32:53 27:24
89 Brandon Mah 11 - 14 Kamuela, HI :32:54 27:25
90 Rudy Bless 15 - 18 Kailua-Kona, HI :32:58 27:28
91 Naomi Jefferson 11 - 14 F Hollis, NH :33:00 27:30
92 Lauren Mcabee 25 - 29 F Keauhou, HI :33:07 27:35
93 Bob Smith 60 - 64 Kailua-Kona, HI :33:09 27:37
94 Phoebe Hono 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :33:12 27:40
95 Becky Thurston 55 - 59 F Kamuela, HI :33:21 27:47
96 Jackie Hofmann 55 - 59 Kailua-Kona, HI :33:23 27:49
97 May Diaz 25 - 29 F Keauhou, HI :33:26 27:51
98 Ethan Souza 11 - 14 Kamuela, HI :33:31 27:55
99 Kaia Hiro 35 - 39 Kailua-Kona, HI :33:40 28:03
100 Leslie Cens-McDowell 60 - 64 F Holualoa, HI :33:44 28:06
101 George Fry 60 - 64 Kamuela, HI :33:50 28:11
102 Rebekah Lussiaa 30 - 34 F Kailua-Kona, HI :33:51 28:12
103 Brown Bear 45 - 49 Kailua-Kona, HI :33:56 28:16
104 Carol Elliot 65 - 69 F Kailua-Kona, HI :34:01 28:20
105 Sabrina Kirn 11 - 14 F Kailua-Kona, HI :34:03 28:22
106 Daniel Estess 11 - 14 Kailua-Kona, HI :34:05 28:24

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

"My solution: wetsuits are legal all the time, with one caveat: you can't put it on until the gun sounds. Not only would that inject some fairness, it'd be great entertainment for the audience."

I love that idea! It'd be like old-time car races, in which the drivers had to run out to their cars. Awesome!

mm

the other answer would be -

if you put the wet suit on for the start you gotta cross the finish line in it

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

I vote for that one.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

I almost did that at a race once. I have a DeSoto T1. I already had the top off, but I got flustered in transition and was running out of T1 before I realized that I still have the bibjohns on.

"If anything, we should be making the sport HARDER, - not easier."

Ok, let's make it harder in all 3 sports. No aero bars, no water bottles, no racing flats, no disk wheels, no goggles. If fact, let's make it so Spartan that only a few people want to do it. That will teach those sissies who want to wear wetsuits.

That's been done. Wilkes Barre Nationals long time ago (Armstrong was there). It was freezing. One of the women in my age group simply left her suit on. Short sleeves and legs, but still. She beat me, I have to add. Overall that is; certainly not in the swim even though the suit slows me down.

I do like the idea of putting the suit on when the gun goes off. But I also think that in the name of user-friendliness, a separate wave could be made for scaredy cats. Or there could be With and Without awards.

rtk

Please don't attempt to weaken my argument by taking it out of context and/or distorting it.

I'm just saying that it's possible that changing the swim length, and/or making websuits ineligible for awards, - (or starting them later), - WILL help bring the sport more into balance.....

Please, be reasonable, and try looking at things from a multitude of perspectives...

Ok, let's make it harder in all 3 sports. No aero bars, no water bottles, no racing flats, no disk wheels, no goggles.

How many people would bail on a race if the RD announced no aero bars, racing flats or disk wheels? (not addressing no water bottles or goggles)

My guess is that everyone who signed up would still race and more importantly would still finish.

My beef with the wetsuit is that it allows some people to finish as opposed to simply increasing speed. I have been in sprint distance races in July and August where the RD had to ban wetsuits. Some people actually packed up and left! Sprint distance! No more than 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile and they couldn't or wouldn't do it without a wetsuit. Take the aero bars off and the disk wheel and those folks can still ride the distance. Trade out the racing flats and you can still run the miles.

I can hang with the no goggles thing, but my shifters are out on my aerobars, so I need them.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

I agree with you -- it seems that the swim should at least be 5km. 8km or 10km would be more fair, but wouldn't that present a safety (and race course practicality) issue.....

The marathon makes sense as run leg distance b/c it is such a well-known standard.

I'd actually reduce the bike to 100 miles since a century ride is also an accepted standard (and makes split calculations easy!).

Note: the above recommendations are counter to my own abilities -- I'm much better at bike and run than swim!

I like the paddles and fins idea. In college, in practice I went a 1500 LCM with paddles and zoomers in 15:15, only about 20 seconds off the American record, but almost a minute under my PR. That is a whole lot faster than I could swim with a wetsuit. As swimming skill increases, body position is not affected as much by a wetsuit, but an increase in propulsion equals a bigger increase in speed.

Anyway, there are 2 separate issues here: temperature and speed. Wetsuits have evolved to be more about speed than temperature. I say, if you're going to allow wetsuits, allow paddles and fins. They do it in a lot of lifeguard races. Why not?

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_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

"Please, be reasonable, and try looking at things from a multitude of perspectives..."

Rats. I was hoping I could just be confrontational.

OK, I understand why wetsuits bother the good swimmers. Their advantage is diminished, unlike the good bikers or good runners. On the other hand, especially where you have the possibility of 60 degree water like we have here in Chicago, wetsuits do provide a safety factor (like bike helmets) and open up the sport to more people who would otherwise be too intimidated by the swim. Wetsuits also give us one more thing to argue about on Slowtwitch.

Now, how's that for being reasonable?

And at 78 degrees, they are downright dangerous. I suspect that there is a much higher probability of overheating than getting hypothermia.

Lowering the temperature limit, makes it safer for the FOP. You can still allow wetsuits for those who can't do without, but they have to do without awards also.

HA!!

I hear you, - I could stand to lighten up!! :-)

I hear you too about the safety factor thing. I enter several open water USMS competitions a year and I do admit to struggling with the cold and taking an inordinate amount of time to acclimate myself to the sub-60 degree temperatures of some races...

Also, - I really think that we/triathletes should be PROUD of ourselves as being " VERY GOOD" at 3 sports. And, therefore, approach the swim with the SAME attitude as the run and bike. Meaning, - "I want to work to be a better than mediocre swimmer, runner, and Time-trialist!! Sure, - you're not going to compete with George Tidmarsh, or Bob Placek in USMS open water swimming events: that's just silly. (And, - one can't be equally as "VERY GOOD" at all 3 disciplines). But at the same time, - you're not going to ride the bike leg with highly ranked time-trialists in Masters cycling, or world class distance Masters runners. Highly ranked Masters distance runners may make fun of our running, - but they can't time trial with us, and they shouldn't be able to swim with us either....

:-)

I agree. The 10k open water swim was just accepted by FINA into the world champs, and is now the longest swim event. Just like a marathon. I'd love a nice long swim. But I won't hold my breath for it to happen.

10k open water swim, now that would take a commitment to train for just to complete. :)

it would be nice for the strong swimmers to be able to get similar time gaps on the others that strong cyclsits and strong runners get. level the playing field a bit more.

"it would be nice for the strong swimmers to be able to get similar time gaps on the others that strong cyclsits and strong runners get. level the playing field a bit more."

Not gonna happen. The sport would wither and die if much more emphasis was put on the swim. I think most newbies are willing to give tris a whirl because the swim is hard but doable for them. Unlike running, long distance swimming is just too foreign (hard) to the average weekend athlete.

The sport would not wither and die. Team in Training might though.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Its like this, swimming is an insignificant part of most races. Would you rather be an elite runner or swimmer for tri success? Thats a tough one eh? Do you think it matters if some 10 min miler wears flats compared to some 3% body fat dude wearing a wetsuit? Make the swim an equal part of the race and I will change my opinion on wetsuits.

"Would you rather be an elite runner or swimmer for tri success?"

OK... not for tri success, but I'd rather be the elite swimmer. Elite runners look like sissies. And everyone on ST knows that it's all about how you look. :D