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Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay
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you wrote about Dave. i don't understand depression or suicidality and i suppose i am lucky for that. your essay was a lovely searching that helped me understand better and empathise. thank you so much for sharing and writing with such heart.

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Last edited by: kathy_caribe: Feb 10, 16 8:22
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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kathy_caribe wrote:
you wrote about Dave. i don't understand depression or suicidality and i suppose i am lucky for that. your essay was a lovely searching that helped me understand better and empathise. thank you so much for sharing and writing with such heart.

well said, and, I agree.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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x2 on what you said. I have been touched by this through old Military classmates/colleagues who died by suicide. Generally it has been post deployment in war zones. I think we as a society have been conditioned to accept that this can be a casualty of war. Suicide perhaps from the will to succeed and better oneself combined perhaps by the effect of head injuries is something that we don't think about, but I suppose we should. In my case I get on a downward spiral if I can't strive to do something well/reasonably well (or get the most out of myself). In youth academics and sport were that outlet. In adult life, work and triathlon has been an outlet. I can't just sit there and do nothing and relax like many people can. In a way I envy that. My mind and body will become restless if I have to do nothing. You could put two rats in a cage and one will just gravitate to go like a maniac on the treadmill and the other will just gladly sit in the corner and relax. I think many of us end up being the former. If I am on a beach, I can't just lie in the sun. I'll swim, or run or build stuff with sand or when too tired for that read a book. I was having this discussion several years ago with a friend who has sport as the only outlet. I said, "what happens when we can't do sport....gotta find something else to fill the gap". Others don't need to fill any gap and chase any self "betterment" goals. Maybe they are lucky that they are not wired that way because as Jordan wrote in the front page article it can be a never ending spiral of "its not enough"!!!!
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Feb 10, 16 7:18
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Agree. You never know what struggles others have. Unfortunately the rate of depression is very high in my profession . . . that has made me aware of just how fragile we all are. Great article Jordan.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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I think it was a great insight into elite athletes and high end performances. I found the tidbit about Simon really interesting having met him after he retired he seemed so chill. I am curious how uptight he may have been previously being as disciplined and driven as he clearly was. I've caught myself "shutting out the world" to get my training in and I'm no where close to their level of performance.

Perhaps opening the dialogue a bit from those who came out of their years or intense training and recognized these traits in themselves will do the world some good. I know when I read the news I was saddened and shocked. I've seen triathlon empower people to achieve better versions of themselves but being mindful of the accomplishments we receive can't be lost in the pursuit of MORE and MORE AGAIN.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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thanks Kathy. The positive response has been amazing. As I said to someone else, it's nearly impossible not to feel some sense of regret (maybe not the right word exactly) about not having been able to write something like that BEFORE. But nothing good comes of that - the thinking part. So I guess I just wanted to say something "out loud" (figuratively) to combat that feeling of wanting to have said something.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
thanks Kathy. The positive response has been amazing. As I said to someone else, it's nearly impossible not to feel some sense of regret (maybe not the right word exactly) about not having been able to write something like that BEFORE. But nothing good comes of that - the thinking part. So I guess I just wanted to say something "out loud" (figuratively) to combat that feeling of wanting to have said something.

Jordan:
Thank you for such a beautifully written essay. Like Kathy, I don't understand the depression or suicidal feelings and thoughts.
But, like a lot of us on this Forum, I do understand the restless, constantly "striving" feelings that come with searching for new challenges, going faster, and "winning." Maybe even the unconscious running away from... what?
Can you offer suggestions for what we can do for our friends, fellow athletes, and pros we come into contact with?
Obviously, pro athletes and people we're not close to are probably not going to open up right then and there, but there are probably stupid things we should just not say...
But for friends and training buddies, I can think of two: listen better and pay attention, instead of "waiting to talk." And stick around to offer support.

Thanks again for saying something Out Loud.
KS

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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One thing that people dismiss is that for some high achievers the depression is an "existential" one. It deals with purpose, examination of the self, essentially everything behind what it means to not only be alive, but to live. This is an assessment of life that isn't really caused by short term or even long term problems, though those can possibly exacerbate these thoughts. I think for these people the answer has to come from within, and their agency for achieving purpose and happiness must be stronger.

This topic reminds me of a few characters from literature: Ahab in Moby Dick, and Holden Caulfield in Catcher in the Rye. Both characters are troubled in their own philosophical pursuits, albeit with different levels of abstraction. Regarding competitiveness, I can't help but recall Hannibal Lecter's allusion to "deep rollers," (speaking to Starling) overachieving to detrimental extremes.
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [STConcierge] [ In reply to ]
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STConcierge wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
thanks Kathy. The positive response has been amazing. As I said to someone else, it's nearly impossible not to feel some sense of regret (maybe not the right word exactly) about not having been able to write something like that BEFORE. But nothing good comes of that - the thinking part. So I guess I just wanted to say something "out loud" (figuratively) to combat that feeling of wanting to have said something.

Jordan:
Thank you for such a beautifully written essay. Like Kathy, I don't understand the depression or suicidal feelings and thoughts.
But, like a lot of us on this Forum, I do understand the restless, constantly "striving" feelings that come with searching for new challenges, going faster, and "winning." Maybe even the unconscious running away from... what?
Can you offer suggestions for what we can do for our friends, fellow athletes, and pros we come into contact with?
Obviously, pro athletes and people we're not close to are probably not going to open up right then and there, but there are probably stupid things we should just not say...
But for friends and training buddies, I can think of two: listen better and pay attention, instead of "waiting to talk." And stick around to offer support.

Thanks again for saying something Out Loud.
KS

One thing that I think of a lot is a phenomenon Simon Whitfield describes, where his "space in a room" is already taken up before he even says a word. He is, "Simon Whitfield, Olympic Gold & Silver medalist." He is not allowed to be anyone else. He's not allowed to be a struggling father, or someone who isn't sure what he wants to do with the next 20 years of his life, etc. He *is* who he *was.* And I think that's a problem.

I can imagine with Dave Mirra, everyone probably ALWAYS told him how incredible he was. And I think that's problematic for a bunch of reasons. It makes it much harder to admit when you are struggling. And I think it also reinforces the idea that he is his past accomplishments, which then further reinforces the idea that he will be those things that he accomplishes going forward. And those two can build on each other. If you are both struggling AND feel like you need to achieve, achieve, achieve going forward, I can see that as a recipe for disaster.

Basically, I think we need to let people be who they are, NOT who we want or expect them to be. But that's really hard.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Basically, I think we need to let people be who they are, NOT who we want or expect them to be. But that's really hard
______________________

I remember watching US OPEN and a tennis player yelled, looking into the crowd, "I JUST WANT TO BE LIKE MIKE!" with Jordan in the audience. Camera turned and Jordan was laughing. But I was thinking what a standard to live up to. What pressure!

I listened to the Starky podcast this morning. Great podcast but terribly sad. So sad for his family.

great blog Jordan. Really great.


@rhyspencer
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Rapp always has a way with words. Very articulate speaker. And couldn't agree more with your observations and thanks Rapp for sharing.

_____________________________________________
"It's a line you have to cross to understand."
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Well written piece, definitely ads another perspective to something that is so hard to understand.
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Re: Jordan - that was an incredibly touching essay [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you Jordan.
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