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bike volume for short coursers?
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What kind of volume range is "normal" for short coursers on the bike side?

I have a decent feel for running volume I assume because I have been doing it before I started tris. 20 MPW I feel okay, 30 MPW I feel great.

What is the equivalent of the 30MPW in bike distance? Right now I am trying to work up to 1h 3x a week in ZWIFT for winter training. Thinking in the Spring to do something like two 60 minute bikes, and one longer bike (with long bike changing between 25-50 miles depending on the week). Are those reasonable, or do I need drastically more volume?
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm racing short course, sprints and olympics. Total volume is 14-17h/week, with 15-20k in the pool, 6-8h/week on the bike, and 20-30mpw running.

The 6-8h per week on the bike is mostly quality. I get in 2 rides during the week of 1.5-2h, with intervals of some sort. On the weekend, two rides of 2-3h, with tempo/steady efforts.

Full disclosure, I really want to be riding around 58min for 40k in oly races this year. Current FTP is ~300w at 160lb.

I think you can get away with 4-5h per week, with lots of high intensity riding. I did this all fall and rode well, 23-24mph on very tough courses. Two 75min rides with killer intervals, and a 2hr weekend ride with lots of tempo and big gear work. All on the turbo!

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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abrown wrote:
I think you can get away with 4-5h per week, with lots of high intensity riding. I did this all fall and rode well, 23-24mph on very tough courses. Two 75min rides with killer intervals, and a 2hr weekend ride with lots of tempo and big gear work. All on the turbo!

Awesome thanks!

I think my long haul time commitment is going to be closer to 10h per week, with maybe a bump to 12h if I try to peak for something. So 4-5 seems reasonable.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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It's completely dependent on your goals and genetics. What abrown outlines is probably more volume than 95%+ of short coursers at any given race.

So what are your goals?
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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badgertri wrote:
It's completely dependent on your goals and genetics. What abrown outlines is probably more volume than 95%+ of short coursers at any given race.

So what are your goals?

1) Improve biking to come closer to current running potential (say currently at 75th percentile running short course, but 50th percentile biking)

2) General fitness / fun to go along with #1
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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copperman wrote:
1) Improve biking to come closer to current running potential (say currently at 75th percentile running short course, but 50th percentile biking)

2) General fitness / fun to go along with #1

I think you could do that on max 3-4h of high quality riding a week. Depending on your genetics you could get by with less as long as the intensity is there. I personally feel that the intensity piece is what most people miss. They go pedal around for 5-6h a week but don't ever destroy themselves. There should be rides where you either come close to puking or get off the bike and have jelly legs...if you've never had those feelings you haven't pushed yourself hard enough on the bike yet.

There is a group ride in my area twice a week where the top group is pure cyclists...strong cyclists. You have to destroy yourself just to hang on to the back. Those are the types of rides that make an impact.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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badgertri wrote:
You could do that on max 3-4h of high quality riding a week. Depending on your genetics you could get by with less as long as the intensity is there. I personally feel that the intensity piece is what most people miss. They go pedal around for 5-6h a week but don't ever destroy themselves.

Hum.

So trainerroad could do that most rides for me, as it was keyed to my FTP and would get harder as I got faster. But it was too stinking boring, so I moved on to zwift. I destroy myself every time I come to a short sprint, maybe I need to add a few more hard efforts in there... I know if I overdestroy my calves are mad at me and will impact my running, but maybe that is a tangental problem.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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copperman wrote:
Hum.

So trainerroad could do that most rides for me, as it was keyed to my FTP and would get harder as I got faster. But it was too stinking boring, so I moved on to zwift. I destroy myself every time I come to a short sprint, maybe I need to add a few more hard efforts in there... I know if I overdestroy my calves are mad at me and will impact my running, but maybe that is a tangental problem.

TrainerRoad may be boring but it's going to give you the best workout if you have a real FTP and don't adjust the intensity down. Unless you're racing/pacing with a group ride or doing a workout on Zwift odds are you're just soft pedaling except for the KOM's...so you're talking about a handful of minutes every lap of high intensity work...that isn't nearly enough.

Read the Tour of Sufferlandria thread to get an idea of what cyclists around here put themselves through in training.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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abrown wrote:
I'm racing short course, sprints and olympics. Total volume is 14-17h/week, with 15-20k in the pool, 6-8h/week on the bike, and 20-30mpw running.

The 6-8h per week on the bike is mostly quality. I get in 2 rides during the week of 1.5-2h, with intervals of some sort. On the weekend, two rides of 2-3h, with tempo/steady efforts.

Full disclosure, I really want to be riding around 58min for 40k in oly races this year. Current FTP is ~300w at 160lb.

I think you can get away with 4-5h per week, with lots of high intensity riding. I did this all fall and rode well, 23-24mph on very tough courses. Two 75min rides with killer intervals, and a 2hr weekend ride with lots of tempo and big gear work. All on the turbo!


That's pretty slow for those watts/kg, which suggests poor watts/cda.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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My w/Cda is probably pretty bad. I'm riding a Cervelo aero road bike with clip-ons, with an aero helmet. I'm 18 and a college student, so budget is an issue in terms of moving to an aero bike. My position could probably use some help as well, but I don't have any recent pics.

Also, back in the fall I was probably around 275w ftp, so I've improved since then. Regardless, I think I go slow for my watts.

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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badgertri wrote:
TrainerRoad may be boring but it's going to give you the best workout if you have a real FTP and don't adjust the intensity down. Unless you're racing/pacing with a group ride or doing a workout on Zwift odds are you're just soft pedaling except for the KOM's...so you're talking about a handful of minutes every lap of high intensity work...that isn't nearly enough.

So why not change that?

Today I did a Zwift FTP test to confirm it was where I thought it was (30-40 watts down from last year when I was a good student on trainer road).

To to combat softpedal - what if I try to keep all my total wattage of my workouts at 90-95% of FTP range? That way I know that I put out a good overall effort and nothing halfassed. Then I can either have it be a steady wattage workout (and be more like a tempo workout), or I can put in some 5 minute segments of 120% FTP (or whatever number I come up with).. as long as I keep workout FTP at 90-95% of FTP, seems like I will get a fairly reasonable workout..
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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copperman wrote:
What kind of volume range is "normal" for short coursers on the bike side?

I have a decent feel for running volume I assume because I have been doing it before I started tris. 20 MPW I feel okay, 30 MPW I feel great.

What is the equivalent of the 30MPW in bike distance? Right now I am trying to work up to 1h 3x a week in ZWIFT for winter training. Thinking in the Spring to do something like two 60 minute bikes, and one longer bike (with long bike changing between 25-50 miles depending on the week). Are those reasonable, or do I need drastically more volume?

For me - 100+/- miles on the bike, 16+/- miles running, a float or 2 per week.

Not sure why you would want a longer ride if focusing on short course.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at the amount of time you are putting into training you have a lot of low hanging "aero" fruit to take advantage of. I know you said you're a student but my first tri bike was over 10 years old and cost me $600. As a comparison I put out an easy 40k at 58mins from 222W average during a recent tri - and that's at 41 years old and 170lbs but I've spent time getting my setup just right. With 300W at your disposal you should be crushing that 40k. If you can swap some of your training time for a part time job and save up enough for an older bike I think you'll see a better return on your improved results.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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badgertri wrote:
It's completely dependent on your goals and genetics. What abrown outlines is probably more volume than 95%+ of short coursers at any given race.

So what are your goals?

Totally agree. I mean if even if you're doing an Olympic distance bike in 1:20, you don't need like 5-6 times that time per week to get good bike workouts in. And as you rightly stated, completely dependent on your goals and genetics. Of course, if one loves biking why not get out for 10 hours a week. Woo Hoo
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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Tubes and tires are cheap (relative to a frame) and can make a big difference. Are you racing with latex tubes and some decent tire?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I'm racing on regular old Bontrager tubes, and usually continental 4-season tires! I want to get turbo cottons, they look great and fast, but I'm worried about the time loss if I flat. How much time am I giving up with 4-season tires?

Also, to the poster who asked about a tri bike, I'm hoping to get an engineering internship that pays well this summer, and with luck I'll have more than enough money for an old cervelo by fall!

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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Yea dude get in a good position with some decent tires/latex tubes sleeved suit disc cover and you'll be rocketing
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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My approach to racing sprints is run focused. My volume is about 30-40 mpw running and 50-60 mpw biking. When I'm in good run shape, my biking benefits. When I'm in poor run shape, my biking suffers. I typically bike 3-4 times per week with an average ride of about 15 miles; however, the majority of these miles are high intensity and very little junk. My longest ride over the course of any month is about 20 miles. For perspective, my power-to-weight ratio ~ 4.0 based on this volume/ approach (250 watts @ 62kg).
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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Bruh. Latex tubes, $100 rear disc cover and tired make a world of difference! I'm not one of the tire experts on here, but previous data indicated that Conti GP 4000s were a good mix of rolling resistance and flat protection for our crap Michigan roads.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what "normal" is since everybody is a little different as already pointed out. If biking is where you want to see improvement, then your idea of doing 3 hard 1 hour sessions consistently week in and week out will get you results. With that said, if you want to maximize that time, you need to do those hour sessions in a certain way. It sounds like you already have an idea of FTP and have tried Trainer Road. If you are bored with TR, then I know Zwift has a workout library; however, I've heard that it's not as extensive as TR. I do 2-3x1 hour long, very intense sessions on the trainer using TR and after a few months of that I usually get about as strong as I'm gonna get (24-26+ mph avg over sprint and olympic bike splits depending on the course). I've never used Zwift, but have heard it is fun. I just don't know if you will get the same bang for your buck with it. But again, I could be wrong. If you are going to use Zwift, I wouldn't waste your time working at 90-95% - I would work 105, 110, 120+% for shorter periods - the higher the %FTP, the shorter the interval length in general. The science backs up those shorter, more intense sessions especially for the short course racing that you are looking to specialize in. Once the spring hits, getting outside can be a mental and physical boost, and finding a group ride that makes you want to puke can give you an extra fitness boost as well. But, your idea of 2x1 hour intense sessions plus a long ride during the spring and summer sounds exactly what I do and that is very effective at getting strong over the course of a few months. Maybe adding in 1-2 easy spins on the trainer or outdoor rides if you have the time. But again, those hour sessions have to be very high quality to see drastic results. Hope this helps solidify your thoughts.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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abrown wrote:
My w/Cda is probably pretty bad. I'm riding a Cervelo aero road bike with clip-ons, with an aero helmet. I'm 18 and a college student, so budget is an issue in terms of moving to an aero bike. My position could probably use some help as well, but I don't have any recent pics.

Also, back in the fall I was probably around 275w ftp, so I've improved since then. Regardless, I think I go slow for my watts.

What is your average power and NP for these races? You mention your FTP, but not what you actually did for these races.
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Re: bike volume for short coursers? [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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Two hard interval sessions on the bike during the week, one long 3 hour ride on sunday. Occasionally I would add an easy hour on saturday. I was running 40mpw (over 6 days; 3 easy 4mi runs/ 2 8mi hard runs/1 12 mi long run on saturday) and swimming 4-5x a week.

I guess that's more volume than other short coursers, but I've always had much better luck with more volume and not as much intensity (although it's still there).

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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