Most certainly, i agree hunger is best sign of how many calories we need. My main point was/is that IME not eating enough has never caused over-training for me but rather just weight loss and feeling hungry all the time. You have eat enough to refuel and rebuild your muscles to train well, but you can still be hungry/lose weight if you are not doing more volume and/or intensity than your body can currently handle. Just being really hungry is a diff type of feeling from feeling exhausted and run down, IME.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If I am hungry, and I eat a couple turkey sandwiches and triscuits, it takes me about 1000 calories to feel not hungry (not full, just not hungry).

If I am hungry, and I eat 600 calories of rice, veggies and chicken, I don't feel full, but I don't feel hungry any more.

These are both typical lunches for me when I'm doing a hard ride after work.

It's a really good thing I count calories, and not rely on hunger, to get to race weight.

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Do you not feel hungry sooner though after the 600-cal meal???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Maybe, maybe not. Oh, and I have the least appetite/hunger after 3 hour weekend rides. I'd really be in trouble if I took your advice and went by hunger in that case. I'd be terribly under-fueled for the next day's ride.

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

I too often do not feel hungry after a 3 hr workout, perhaps not for 2 or even 3 hrs afterwards, but then my hunger comes back with a vengeance. Also, i don't know what you put on your sandwiches and on your chicken/rice/veggies, but i will feel "sated" for a LOT longer if i use real mayo on my sandwiches. At 100 cal per tablespoon, it packs a big caloric punch. With rice and chicken, i'll mix in a bunch of cheese and some real butter to add enough fat calories. My blood sugar stays a lot more even when i eat a moderate amount of fat and protein; i'm prone to be hypoglycemic if i eat too many carbs as they seem to just fly through my system too fast:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I unfortunately have experience here and actually came to this site for some training info on coming back from overtraining. I spent the last 3 years off the bike and only doing maybe 8-10 casual rides for fun or just general excercise in that timeframe. When before I was riding about 10-15 hrs each week depending on phase of training for 4-5 years. I wasn't a triathlete and in fact mainly just did ultra endurance mountain bike events and long road rides. I did occasionaly trail run.

Overtraining syndrome is/was completey debilitating. To the point where you go to Dr.'s and feel like your body is literally in shambles...from rapid heart rate, lethargy, cold sweats, hysteria, insomnia, unexplained pain, nervous system issues, super cold hands and feet. You get blood panels, HIV tests , Hepatitis tests,Lyme disease tests, heart monitors for rapid heart rate....and the list goes on but you know what.....NOT ONE SINGLE TEST WAS POSITIVE. So the Dr.s are like "I don't know what is wrong all your tests and bloodwork look good".......I mean I could write a book on my experience. Literally some mornings I could wake up for work get in the shower, get out and get dressed and have to sit down and rest for 10 minutes before I felt like I had enough energy to finish my morning chores and drive to work.

Without getting to off track...some key indicators thinking back that I dealt with and couldn't pinpoint at the time then for overreaching getting close to overtrained these include both on and off the bike.

1. Power levels tapered off a bit ....maybe 5-10%
2. Some efforts seemed harder than previous to the point HR was Z5 for a mid Z3 effort
3. Drinking more or feeling thirsty alot
4. Peeing more often which could be tied to #3
5. Drinking more coffee especially mid day to get a boost
6. A general feeling of not being excited to ride
7. Cranky for no reason
8. Craving junk food like Snickers bars
9. More frequent runny noses.....Not really sick but just sort of not well

I hope some of these might help but one thing I really would caution is if you even think you could be really in a overreached state....take a week off, COMPLETELY. Unless you are a pro and this is your lively hood just take a week off. A little extra rest will not hurt you. The other side is no fun at all my friends.

I think the OP (and anyone else) needs to consider age as well. As I hit 50-ish it become much easier to be "overtrained" than it was at younger ages. An easy way for me to know when I am getting overtrained is that (1) the quads really complain just going up one flight of stairs and/or (2) the energy for "relations" with the spouse is down such that she notices it. If nothing else that is good motivation to take it easy a couple days.

The "Fast after 50" book has been good for trying to understand the rest vs. training vs. reward equation. Even if you are not 50, it may have good advice for nutritional needs for any aged athlete too.

the latter can cause the former.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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