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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [rmg] [ In reply to ]
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rmg wrote:
I assume you have gel flask. Where do you keep it ?


I (embarrassingly) don't have one. I need to go grab one...any ideas of a good one? The only thread i see was from 5 years ago...
Last edited by: znerd: Oct 7, 15 10:07
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
That means your calorie burn on the bike is going to be about 3348 kCAL.

My first question is - what have you found as a sustainable nutrition intake during training?


For folks I work with I typically advise to "start" around 50% of anticipated calorie expenditure on the bike and adjust from there based on energy levels and gut tolerance.


FWIW - I anticipate to be around 3,900 kCAL on the bike at arizona, and my plan - based on training and experience is to consume 18 gels on the bike - ~1,980 calories - which is just a touch over 50%.


If 2,000 has proven to work for you in training, then go for it. That said - you're taking in a fair amount of solids during your ride, and that can slow digestion and absorbtion - which may leave you feeling bloated an yucky and bonking even if you eat enough. If I were in your situation, I'd be looking at around 16 gels.


Salt intake - have you had any issues with that level of salt intake?

Run: On the surface if your gut is doing good, and you get enough energy in on the bike - you may be OK on the run. How does your gut usually fair calorie absorbtion wise on your long runs? The run nutrition on IM Race day can be a bit tricky because you are starting relatively in the hole compared to a typical long run day - so you *will* need more calories on the run, than on a normal long run day. i.e. I can run 2:15 to 3 hours easily on just water or at most two/three gels, but on IM race day I usually try to triple that intake.

I've spent some time getting bonk breakers in my routine because the gel doesn't quite fill my appetite. i literally am hungry on the bike and bonk breakers help that . Gels don't seem to satisfy. On my long runs, i'm always fine with gels (one an hour) and salt (one an hour), but once again, not quite simulating an ironman and everything else before hand.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [Tina.c] [ In reply to ]
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Tina.c wrote:
Nutrition is very personal and individual. Some people have said that you're taking too much, others say not enough. It really isn't what works for them, it's what works for you. It isn't necessarily weight based, but generally the more you weigh, the more you can consume. I don't see how much you weigh, so it's hard to say. A typical 175lb athlete could take in 75g of carb/hr on the bike, or 90g/hr. The same athlete might do 50-60g of carb/hr on the run. I have seen some women be able to take in 90g of carb/hr, while some men weighing 200lbs are at 60g/hr. I work full time as a sports nutritionist so a lot of my time is working with athletes on their nutrition plans. Here are some comments:
  • You have 6 weeks, so you have time to practice your race sim nutrition 2-3 more times
  • Make sure you practice your dinner then night before and breakfast-use the same times as well. ex. 6:30pm dinner, 3:30am breakfast
  • Make sure you practice in typical race day conditions (of course you can't know for sure)
  • Practice your nutrition plan at the same speed and intensity. Too many athletes train one way, and end up racing another. Going out harder then you trained makes it hard for your gut to digest.
  • Do a sweat test if you're not sure how much fluid to take in
  • Practice with race course nutrition in case you need to rely on it, or you're planning to use it (I think you said you were)
  • Have a back up plan if something goes wrong-often for athletes it's water, coke and a salt tab on the run
  • If you use two simple sugars (glucose and fructose as an example) you'll be able to digest more carbohydrate. Generally a agreed upon number is 90g of carb per hour using a mixture of sugars. Most sports nutrition gives you this-Hammer is an exception.

Without knowing more history about you it's hard to say for certain if the plan is right for you. But looking at it, it seems reasonable. I up your electrolyte intake on the run though (personal opinion that most endurance athletes should be around 600-800mg/hr). Practice and have a back up plan if it goes wrong. Good luck!

Thanks, tina. I appreciate the advice. I do weight 161 lbs/73 kgs. I've done sweat tests...and feel i have a decent handle on that. What I struggle with is practicing my nutrition...i do practice, but in no single workout do I fully mimic an Ironman and that's what's making me nervous. I haven't had any gut issues practicing what i'm doing, but just want to make sure I'm not way off when it comes to a full race.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Make sure you adjust salt to sweat rate!!

I was pounding salt in the form of electrolyte tabs during IMMT last year as per my plan. The difference was, it was a cold morning. I was barely sweating on the bike. Some were going with jackets on, I, being from the East coast of Canada thrive in cool temps (low teens celcius)

After about 4h on the bike my watch got REALLY tight. I realized my wrists were swelling and stopped the salt until I got on the run and started sweating to my normal "sweat like a pig" levels.

Just as a point of reference for you,
I'm doing IMFLA and though not as detailed as yours my plan is a Clif bar and 1/2 package of shot blocks per hour. I'll supplement with salt sparingly than normal "full heat" levels. :) (maybe 1 tab per hour) This gives me 60g carbs per hour which is my target. I'm 5'10" - 204lbs. My water plan is to just keep sipping. Every 15 mins or so take a small sip from the areo bottle.

I have decided to not do gels this time around unless I get sick of chewing the shot blocks, I can handle the gu's and will be taking an immodium before the swim start to uhm "lock things down", shall we say.

All that said Tina C.'s post is awesome! :)

Good luck!
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know how many kJ you burn on a ride that replicates the IM duration and/or distance?

If you do then all you need is a little math and presto you know what you need.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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I have not found the ideal solution for carrying a gel flask and always worried I would lose my nutrition plan if my flask went sailing off the bike. I stick to concentrated carbopro bottles but am always looking for different ideas. sentania seems to have a good setup and is an experienced racer. i still prefer to have nothing on my downtube or seatube.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Do you know how many kJ you burn on a ride that replicates the IM duration and/or distance?

If you do then all you need is a little math and presto you know what you need.

I did a 100-mile ride last thursday and burned 3284 in 5:06 (19.6 mph). My race pace will be a hair slower ( i think around 19.0 mph) so time will be more like 5:55 or so.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Then I might look at all your rides in that expected duration/distance and do math.

It's a calorie out - calorie in equation.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [rmg] [ In reply to ]
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Always always always have a backup bottle of nutrition at special needs.

It's unlikely that you will need to use it, but it's nice to know it's there.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [rmg] [ In reply to ]
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rmg wrote:
I have not found the ideal solution for carrying a gel flask and always worried I would lose my nutrition plan if my flask went sailing off the bike. I stick to concentrated carbopro bottles but am always looking for different ideas. sentania seems to have a good setup and is an experienced racer. i still prefer to have nothing on my downtube or seatube.

Simple solution:

Buy one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/...tle-33/dp/B0048HWZ3Q

Concentrate it and put it in between your aerobars. You should be able to put ~2k calories in it.

Then grab waters at each aid station and either chug real quick or put them in a behind the saddle cage (I've got a Shiv so I just refill the bladder with water, so no bottles on the tubes unless you want to give up a handful of watts).

Race Reports, etc -- Bob's Bikes
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [C W] [ In reply to ]
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that thing scares me
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Znerd, you're right in that you'll never be able to exactly replicate an IM without actually doing an IM. Which of course I don't recommend in your build up :) But you can nail your bike nutrition, and then practice your nutrition on shorter runs off the bike, I think it will be close. For example, if you did a race sim day of 1 hour swim, 4 hour bike IM paced or slightly faster, then 60-90min off the bike IM paced run, I think you'll have a good idea of how your body will respond to your nutrition given your pacing. Then if you have issues doing that, you know it's time to modify. The biggest mistakes I see athletes making are not consuming enough carbs/calories, not consuming enough electrolytes and not taking in enough water with their sports nutrition. Again, it's very personal, so try your plan 2-3 more times, and make adjustments as needed.

Sports Nutritionist, Exercise Physiologist, USAT Level 2 Coach, RRCA Running Coach
http://www.fueledandfocused.com
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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I take a bottle of water at every aid station.

I usually aim to drink about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the bottle between aid stations, I douse myself with the left overs, and then get a new one.


I've found that, for me, too much water on the bike is almost worse than not enough in terms of what it does to my digestion and ability to absorb calories.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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My critique.
This is your first ironman.
Something is sure to go wrong.
If it is not nutrition, it will be pacing.
If not pacing, then some gear problem.

If none of this goes wrong. Well.....
It means that you have spent to much time being anal. Too much time analyzing the minutiae.
Not enough time training.
You probably won't race very well anyway.

Mistakes can be overcome if you have done the training.
You have six weeks. I see at least 4 -100 mile rides, some long and hard runs. That's lots of opportunities to actually see what sits well in your stomach.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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When planning one's IM nutrition it's hard to accurately evaluate one's exact intake of every nutrient.
In your case, with GI issues it might be good to be able to easily see your distribution of fiber intake and such.


As I've mentioned once before on ST, I created an online "Long-Course-Triathlon Nutrition-evaluation tool", when I saw a great need amid herds of triathletes oblivious as to how much of any given nutrient they were planning to take race-day.
It's not always easy to get a good handle on things like your exact sodium intake, or your likely caffeine level given that caffeine has a half-life of ~5 hrs (too much caffeine is shown to be detrimental, too little and you may be missing potential benefits).


The tool is a web-app built on top of a google-doc, so if you have a google account, just fill out the form (link here) and you'll receive an email with the info and a link to the tool in your google-drive.
You use drop-down menus to quickly describe your race plan and it provides a breakdown of most of the useful data in table and graph form.


The tool has a large library of triathlete's typical pre-race and in-race foods, containing all constituent info (including the fiber in your beloved Bonkbreaker bars).
You can add unlisted foods to your personal food library, and optionally submit them to the global library, where it trickles back to all users.
Here are some sample images from the tool. It's pretty much out of beta, it proved useful to a few folk in Kona & last weekend's IMMD.
It can store several races, and provides warnings, for example if certain levels are well outside typical ranges.
I'll create an explanatory walk-through video guide of the tool soon on www.triathlonlog.com.


Good luck in IMAZ.
Doug
http://www.triathlonlog.com/...tion-evaluation-tool
https://twitter.com/dougsbrain











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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [znerd] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't, pace/speed and climate play into the equation of hourly caloric needs?


For example: Would a 6'0"/180lb/10hr racer on a 90 degree humid day require same calories per hour as a 5'5"/140lb/14hr racer a cold day


“Bloom wherever you are planted"
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [BigBloke] [ In reply to ]
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BigBloke wrote:
When planning one's IM nutrition it's hard to accurately evaluate one's exact intake of every nutrient.
In your case, with GI issues it might be good to be able to easily see your distribution of fiber intake and such.


As I've mentioned once before on ST, I created an online "Long-Course-Triathlon Nutrition-evaluation tool", when I saw a great need amid herds of triathletes oblivious as to how much of any given nutrient they were planning to take race-day.
It's not always easy to get a good handle on things like your exact sodium intake, or your likely caffeine level given that caffeine has a half-life of ~5 hrs (too much caffeine is shown to be detrimental, too little and you may be missing potential benefits).


The tool is a web-app built on top of a google-doc, so if you have a google account, just fill out the form (link here) and you'll receive an email with the info and a link to the tool in your google-drive.
You use drop-down menus to quickly describe your race plan and it provides a breakdown of most of the useful data in table and graph form.


The tool has a large library of triathlete's typical pre-race and in-race foods, containing all constituent info (including the fiber in your beloved Bonkbreaker bars).
You can add unlisted foods to your personal food library, and optionally submit them to the global library, where it trickles back to all users.
Here are some sample images from the tool. It's pretty much out of beta, it proved useful to a few folk in Kona & last weekend's IMMD.

It can store several races, and provides warnings, for example if certain levels are well outside typical ranges.
I'll create an explanatory walk-through video guide of the tool soon on www.triathlonlog.com.




Good luck in IMAZ.
Doug
http://www.triathlonlog.com/...tion-evaluation-tool
https://twitter.com/dougsbrain










Thanks, Doug. I filled out the form and am excited to get the email and try it out.
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [andrejs] [ In reply to ]
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andrejs wrote:
C W wrote:
Doesn't seem like very much for the run...


Generally, an athlete's body won't digest much more than that when racing anyway.

Then I must be a freak of nature... but I think it's somewhat individual. At Kona, I was at around +450/hour on the bike and I have to guess here a little, it was sort of a blur... but I estimate 300/hr on the run. 5'11" 170lbs. I know at least one pro that's 155lbs 5'10" consuming a similar amount.

My intake was about the same at a much cooler IMWI last year. Only difference was lower intensity on the bike & run, and I drank more of my calories in Kona just due to much higher fluid requirements.... about 50% more.

Of course, no energy issues at all. I actually felt pretty good with just over 10k left once the clouds came out and ran as fast the last 10k as my 1st 10k. Felt really strong 3-1/2 hours into the bike until the temps climbed over 95F. IF it had turned overcast at that point, I think I finish the whole race almost 20' faster.... but would have a lot of others too. But the fast runners would have gained less.


I think the plan is too light on calories on the run. Just drink less water and more gatoraide, coke or redbull. I also don't think you need much of a plan on the run, just plan to drink as much as you can and maybe take a few gels. You have to see how you feel. If your bloated don't drink.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Please, critique my Ironman Arizona Nutrition Plan! *nervous* [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Always always always have a backup bottle of nutrition at special needs.

It's unlikely that you will need to use it, but it's nice to know it's there.

Yes, always have some sort of contingency plan for nutrition on the bike. If you use gels, then you can always grab some at aide stations or have a few in special needs too.


One other note, is to take a look at aide station spacing. For example, on a lot of courses, there's NOTHING the last 20 miles or more. So you need to have enough reserve to make it that block of time. Especially since I find it's best not to eat or drink the first 10 minutes or so out of transition. Or at least reduce your intake.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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