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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:

Ice baths do the same thing.

On the other hand:
The reason that we train is not to be sore. It is to cause our bodies to change in response to the training stimulus.
If stretching and ice baths reduce soreness, then do they also limit the bodies response to the training stimulus?

Interesting discussion that I had a few days ago with a mate - methods to reduce inflammation (Ice baths, NSAI, etc) reduce your bodies adaptation so you are taking say..5% (arbitrary figure) off your possible gains from a particular work out. It does however, leave you feeling better so you could possibly give 5% more in your next work out. Evens out.

What are the impacts of say... having a hot bath after a hard work out, rather than an ice bath? Does the increase in possible inflammation cause a better adaptation response so you gain more from a work out (possibly at the cost of being sorer the next day)?
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
It is very clear to me (from personal experience) that stretching after running and cycling reduces soreness and helps with cramping and tightness.
Ice baths do the same thing.
On the other hand:
The reason that we train is not to be sore. It is to cause our bodies to change in response to the training stimulus.
If stretching and ice baths reduce soreness, then do they also limit the bodies response to the training stimulus?
Well maximum adaptation is only one of my training goals.
Feeling good is another.
If stretching reduces soreness but also reduce my bodies adaptation to training it is a fair trade off- if I feel better.
I will continue to stretch.

I don't see how stretching or an ice bath, or a hot bath, could possibly "reduce your adaptation". When we train, we raise our heart rates and use our muscles strenuously, whereas when we stretch or take any sort of bath, we only change our HR marginally and we aren't really using our muscles in a strenuous manner, so i don't see how any of these things could interfere with adaptation. Certainly, it does feel good to stretch out tired muscles but my sense is that this is just a pleasant sensation w/ little relation to swimming/biking/running at a training pace. I stretch about 15 minutes or so after about 80% runs but, if it is raining or i'm in a hurry, i skip the stretching session and don't worry about it. I never notice the next day that i did not stretch yesterday.

All of that said, the only stretching I do religiously is what you might call "the swimmer's stretch", i.e. i put my arms up over my head in the "streamline position" and then stretch them as hard as i can up to the ceiling prob about 8-10 times per day. I don't really count this as stretching per se b/c it is so ingrained as to be almost reflexive, i.e. i don't even have to be thinking about it and might find myself just doing it unconsciously while talking to someone about something entirely unrelated to swimming. However, if you were to take 8 to 10 x 1.5 min, then i do about 12-15 min of shoulder stretching 365 days/yr:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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niccolo wrote:
This strikes me as a pretty good summary of the current evidence-based thinking on stretching: http://www.iflscience.com/...h-and-after-exercise

The case for stretching--for flexibility, injury-prevention, or soreness-reduction--seems to be pretty weak. But as someone who was "born with the hamstrings of a shorter man," and whose relatively tight, well, everything, feels like an impediment on the bike, but also running and swimming, I've been mulling this issue, and sporadically stretching, for some time.

Curious how others approach this issue.

I approach it from personal experience. This is not something that requires a peer-reviewed study. It is not physics or aerodynamics. It is simply deciding how you feel and perform as a consequence of doing something vs not. So why overcomplicate it?

Dont go to a peer reviewed study. Try it. Over time you get a sense of what works and what does not if you just pay attention to bow your body feels and record how it performs.

No need to agonize over something that is so easy to test.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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As a former stretcher and tight hamstringed athlete I have to agree. I have read all the research and personally polled high level athletes most of who rarely if ever stretch.

My multiple kona qualified physical therapists states that he only stretches when he has the rare injury.

I do foam roll but that is about the end of it.

I have never really noticed any benefit from stretching and don't really enjoy it and would rather do something else with my time. Such as follow ST.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
I have never been one to live and die by the next 'study' that says one way or the other I just experiment for myself. My back revolts quickly in a few days w/o stretching a few culprits. Hammys, IT, TFL, glutes and adductors don't do well with lots of sitting and that is my job: travel. I have half a dozen stretches I do on the floor takes 15 mintues. Do them every day, no issues. Skip a few days when really busy, hello trouble. It's not just helping it's the difference b/t being able to go on the road or not. Even on weeks when I don't travel and don't sit a lot like vaca last week I have to stay on it or my back will start saying 'heyyyyy don't forget about me dummy!'.

As far as other parts go I think activity is what has helped. Swimming more helps me get more range and I don't stretch any of those muscles other than pulling on side of pool for a minute or two on lats after warm up b/f main set.


Tiger - Do you not feel though that swimming itself stretches you out a lot, espec the flip turns which IMO stretch your lower back, but also just the whole act of stretching your arms out on every stroke. Regardless of what stroke i'm doing, it seems/feels to me like i'm stretching out on every stroke. I stretch outside the pool some also but mostly just as i feel the need. I don't have the back/leg issues that flare up if i don't stretch. Not saying i'm super flexible b/c i'm not, but just that my body is diff from yours:)

Sure swimming makes my back feel great, but I have had back problems for almost 30 years and have added/removed variables enough to know what the magic formula consists of. Swimming alone won't cut it.....feels great while I'm in the pool, but it wears within a couple of hours after my swim. I'm sitting on the floor watching Squawk Box stretching having coffee right now.....this is what sets me up for the best success of no back issues. Adding swimming is a bonus, but I need to finish off my day with another round of posterior chain stuff otherwise I wake up ouchy.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Do you stretch?
Not since 2006 when I read that there was no proven benefit to it.

Do you perceive it as helping?
Yes, I perceive not stretching as helping.


#######
My Blog
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [Anth] [ In reply to ]
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Another who finds not stretching after exercise counterproductive; particularly my hamstrings. I would say a 'cool down' is maybe what is important i.e. not going out and smashing a run, then going straight to the showers. For me, I'd be really tight the next day doing that.

29 years and counting
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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Short answer: I do stretch, and I (anecdotally) find that it helps me at least feel like I'm preventing injury. I seem not to get as injured if I stretch both before and after a workout. Is it scientific? No. Have I been injured during a workout even after I've stretched? Yup. Does it mean stretching didn't help? Don't know, since I can't predict if the injury would have been worse (or better) had I not stretched. I do know that if I get injured and I haven't stretched, I say to myself "I should have stretched first".

One more note about the scientific literature (sparse though it may be). Most often the subjects tend to be younger, healthier, and less injury prone as a population (usually military recruits, student athletes, etc.). So it's hard to know how applicable the results are to older populations at various stages of training, flexibility and metabolism. Not saying the results would be different necessarily, but I don't know that blanket statements on either side can be considered definitive.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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PT was all over me about stretching. I did as I was told and prolonged my injury.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [RJSuperfreaky] [ In reply to ]
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RJSuperfreaky wrote:
Short answer: I do stretch, and I (anecdotally) find that it helps me at least feel like I'm preventing injury. I seem not to get as injured if I stretch both before and after a workout. Is it scientific? No. Have I been injured during a workout even after I've stretched? Yup. Does it mean stretching didn't help? Don't know, since I can't predict if the injury would have been worse (or better) had I not stretched. I do know that if I get injured and I haven't stretched, I say to myself "I should have stretched first".

One more note about the scientific literature (sparse though it may be). Most often the subjects tend to be younger, healthier, and less injury prone as a population (usually military recruits, student athletes, etc.). So it's hard to know how applicable the results are to older populations at various stages of training, flexibility and metabolism. Not saying the results would be different necessarily, but I don't know that blanket statements on either side can be considered definitive.


This is called faith.

You are actions are rooted on your belief in a practice that has no evidence.

Don't feel bad. Several billion people do it in some form or another.

#######
My Blog
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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niccolo wrote:
This strikes me as a pretty good summary of the current evidence-based thinking on stretching: http://www.iflscience.com/...h-and-after-exercise

The case for stretching--for flexibility, injury-prevention, or soreness-reduction--seems to be pretty weak. But as someone who was "born with the hamstrings of a shorter man," and whose relatively tight, well, everything, feels like an impediment on the bike, but also running and swimming, I've been mulling this issue, and sporadically stretching, for some time.

Curious how others approach this issue.

I had a PT working on my IT band and he asked me if I stretched. I told him no. He said don't start. Basically if you stretch, keep stretching. If you don't, then don't start.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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niccolo wrote:
This strikes me as a pretty good summary of the current evidence-based thinking on stretching: http://www.iflscience.com/...h-and-after-exercise

The case for stretching--for flexibility, injury-prevention, or soreness-reduction--seems to be pretty weak. But as someone who was "born with the hamstrings of a shorter man," and whose relatively tight, well, everything, feels like an impediment on the bike, but also running and swimming, I've been mulling this issue, and sporadically stretching, for some time.

Curious how others approach this issue.

I stretch a couple of times a week after a cooldown, physical therapy exercises and self myofascial release. I've also dealt with ITBS and Hamstring Strains in the past, so it helps with my hips, hamstrings and calves not feeling as tight. I don't miss it when I miss a stretching session though; and my hip flexors became noticeably less tight when I started PT/Hip Strengthening exercises. There's a noticeable difference when I miss 2 or 3 days of PT in a row. So YMMV.

Also, when I'm in the car for more than a couple of hours, I'll some times have to stop and stretch my hamstring thanks to being in pain. In regards to injury prevention I don't know that stretching helps much and my physical therapist didn't implement it into our rehab protocol. Just strength training and self myofascial release.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [Helliquin] [ In reply to ]
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Dropping science:

I stretched just one leg and didn't stretch the other, as a control, for a week.

After the week both of my legs felt the same...jacked up from 15 hours of training!

“Bloom wherever you are planted"
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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sub-3-dad wrote:
RJSuperfreaky wrote:
Short answer: I do stretch, and I (anecdotally) find that it helps me at least feel like I'm preventing injury. I seem not to get as injured if I stretch both before and after a workout. Is it scientific? No. Have I been injured during a workout even after I've stretched? Yup. Does it mean stretching didn't help? Don't know, since I can't predict if the injury would have been worse (or better) had I not stretched. I do know that if I get injured and I haven't stretched, I say to myself "I should have stretched first".

One more note about the scientific literature (sparse though it may be). Most often the subjects tend to be younger, healthier, and less injury prone as a population (usually military recruits, student athletes, etc.). So it's hard to know how applicable the results are to older populations at various stages of training, flexibility and metabolism. Not saying the results would be different necessarily, but I don't know that blanket statements on either side can be considered definitive.



This is called faith.

You are actions are rooted on your belief in a practice that has no evidence.

Don't feel bad. Several billion people do it in some form or another.

You are quite correct. Unfortunately, you are also practicing faith, as nearly all research articles on the matter (especially meta-analyses) are noncomittal on the subject. At best, you can say that there is no proof of benefit, which is not the same as to say "proof of no benefit". Further, the "benefit" one is looking for is often different between studies (be it athletic performance, muscle injury, tendon injury, injuries of all types, etc.), making blanket statements very hard to definitively defend on either side.

So you practice your faith, I'll practice mine, and when either of us has better data, we'll share. Deal?
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
dirtymangos wrote:
It is very clear to me (from personal experience) that stretching after running and cycling reduces soreness and helps with cramping and tightness.
Ice baths do the same thing.
On the other hand:
The reason that we train is not to be sore. It is to cause our bodies to change in response to the training stimulus.
If stretching and ice baths reduce soreness, then do they also limit the bodies response to the training stimulus?
Well maximum adaptation is only one of my training goals.
Feeling good is another.
If stretching reduces soreness but also reduce my bodies adaptation to training it is a fair trade off- if I feel better.
I will continue to stretch.


I don't see how stretching or an ice bath, or a hot bath, could possibly "reduce your adaptation". When we train, we raise our heart rates and use our muscles strenuously, whereas when we stretch or take any sort of bath, we only change our HR marginally and we aren't really using our muscles in a strenuous manner, so i don't see how any of these things could interfere with adaptation. Certainly, it does feel good to stretch out tired muscles but my sense is that this is just a pleasant sensation w/ little relation to swimming/biking/running at a training pace. I stretch about 15 minutes or so after about 80% runs but, if it is raining or i'm in a hurry, i skip the stretching session and don't worry about it. I never notice the next day that i did not stretch yesterday.

All of that said, the only stretching I do religiously is what you might call "the swimmer's stretch", i.e. i put my arms up over my head in the "streamline position" and then stretch them as hard as i can up to the ceiling prob about 8-10 times per day. I don't really count this as stretching per se b/c it is so ingrained as to be almost reflexive, i.e. i don't even have to be thinking about it and might find myself just doing it unconsciously while talking to someone about something entirely unrelated to swimming. However, if you were to take 8 to 10 x 1.5 min, then i do about 12-15 min of shoulder stretching 365 days/yr:)

If an ice bath reduces post workout inflammation in a way at all analogous to anti-inflammatory medication, for example, then it's perfectly plausible it might reduce productive adaptation. Conversely, it's at least plausible that a hot shower after a workout would increase some inflammatory dynamics in a way that would bolster adaption. I suspect in the real world these effects, if they exist, would be rather modest, but it is an interesting thing to think about.
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [RJSuperfreaky] [ In reply to ]
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Refusing to practice and not replacing that practice with anything cannot be called faith. Nor heresy.

Nor is it a blanket statement because I'm not preaching anything.

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My Blog
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Re: Do you stretch? Do you perceive it as helping? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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I've never stretched and never had a muscular/tendon/ligament injury in 30+ years in endurance racing. So much for my n=1.
I have always felt that the common 'intuition' that more flexibility can only be a good thing runs counter to my own intuition that seeking a range of motion that well exceeds that used in the activity you are training for could in fact be a risk factor for injury, rather than a protection from it, as well as compromising the spring/rebound of muscles that we rely upon in activities like running. It was no surprise to me when evidence started emerging that there was little demonstrable benefit from stretching, and that pre-exercise stretching in particular could in fact be harmful.

I came across a potentially more interesting perspective more recently in an article in RunnersWorld on the topic of what might make a 2 hour marathon possible. Among the factors & variables they considered were running efficiency and vertical leap. They referred to Paula Radcliffe, women's marathon record holder, "the most astounding marathon outlier of all time" and noted that among the steps she took to go "from good to great" was to deliberately decrease her flexibility to improve efficiency.

"She ... decreased her sit-and-reach flexibility by 1.6 inches (yes, you read that right). Muscles and tendons act as springs that store energy; stiff springs may store and return more energy with each stride. So elites like Radcliffe tend to be less flexible in places like the hamstrings and lower back; indeed, in one study of elite runners, those who were eight inches less flexible on a sit-and-reach test ran 27 percent more efficiently."

That makes perfect sense to me, and is well supported by the evidence. It is still heresy to a large portion of the 'fitness industry', though, who still promote what they 'know' to be true, rather than what the evidence actually shows to be true. I have no objection to anyone stretching because it feels good, or because they like feeling less "tight" afterwards. On the question of whether it "helps", it is worth asking "helps with what?". If you mean 'helps with athletic performance' or 'helps with injury prevention' then there's a good chance that it actually hurts.

Fun article generally, BTW: http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/
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