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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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@gabbiev - "logic isn't part of this discourse and too many extrapolate n=1 anecdotes as data." - ;-))


Gabbiev,in the Zell am See case - flat due to heat blowout, the # of competitors is 25 - 30, not n=1 as you can check easily in fotos. The problem with your logic is, you assume everyone uses perfectly tuned and suitable equipment (aluminium rims?) for races in the perfect pro way. My observation shows this is unfortunaltely not the case, not even in world championships, which is arguably the pinnacle of rider ability in triathlon. Riders in Zell had to deal with gear unsuitable for the conditions, while the steep downhill course and weather forcast was well publicized in advance.


So all I am trying to say - it is really circumstantial, and these are clear cases where you will obtain benefits with discs, even if they have a 15 watt penalty in the wind tunnel.


Sure, Sebastian Kienle or Jan Frodeno will handle this, no problem, with great bike skills and a mechanic tuning the bike and not being forced to brake for Slow Age groupers from other waves on the way down, but for the majority of competitors, especially the ones from the flatlands, this was difficult or should I say pretty scary?


So it would be logic in my world, to consider discs in certain conditions to enhance performance, but even more so with regard to increasing the safety of racers in such conditions.








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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Disc brakes on tri bikes:

A feature without a benefit.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"A feature without a benefit."

maybe. but, question: where do the most aerodynamic tri bikes fall, across the spectrum of all the bikes you might own, in how easy/hard you think it is to adjust the brakes; and in how good/bad the stopping power is when you apply the brakes?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"Where do the most aerodynamic tri bikes fall, across the spectrum of all the bikes you own, in how easy/hard it is to adjust the brakes; and in how good/bad the stopping power is when you apply the brakes?"

Valid question(s). To answer we have to first calibrate our scale of comparison: What is the standard of "best-ness"?

A standard cable routed Shimano Dura-Ace dual pivot (or is it triple?) caliper with Shimano ST-9001 STi lever for a brake lever/shifter. That is our "Level 10" gold standard.

The Magura/Cervelo aero brake has to be a 10, maybe even the elusive "11".

Beneath it, well beneath it, is the hodge-podge of "all feature, no empirical benefit", "styling" brakes that are under the bottom bracket, behind the fork, etc. They likely provide no tangible performance benefit, are more time consuming to properly set-up than the benchmark caliper, require more practice to set-up adequately and are trickier to pack and unpack from a flight case and also don't hold center easily or facilitate easy pad/brake shoe replacement.

Do disc brakes subvert this? No. And, they destroy race wheel compatibility. They mutilate race wheel resale. Look at what the "upgrade" (sic) to 11-speed has done to race wheel compatibility. It drives consumers nuts. It drives dealers somewhat nuts. And did it provide a tangible benefit commensurate with the costs involved, including the intangible cost of hassle?

I'm all for innovation. The P5? Bring it. Beautiful bike. Well done. The latest Trek? pretty good- at least not entirely disastrous. Others... well, I still work in the industry...

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Last edited by: Tom Demerly: Oct 4, 15 13:27
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Gabbiev - good stuff - " to help inexperienced riders protect themselves from themselves". That is one interesting way to look at the problem and a great start!

If you have actively participated in international triathlon racing involving hills - thats what you do going through slower age group waves, specifically in the wet on downhills. Now, I dont know about your racing pedigree, but the way you sound, you should podium in downhill mountain stages of the tour or even on the downhill WC?

Maybe the rest of us just needs disc brakes to keep up with your skills? ;-)) - a great opportunity for the 90% rest of us who lack Sebis and Gabbis skills

P.S. Just to be sure you get the right kind of disc to manage the 80km/h Zell course: Check this, those guys try to literally break the brakes....

http://www.bike-magazin.de/komponenten/bremsen/test-2015-mtb-scheibenbremsen/a25431.html
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom Demerly wrote:
"Where do the most aerodynamic tri bikes fall, across the spectrum of all the bikes you own, in how easy/hard it is to adjust the brakes; and in how good/bad the stopping power is when you apply the brakes?"

Valid question(s). To answer we have to first calibrate our scale of comparison: What is the standard of "best-ness"?

A standard cable routed Shimano Dura-Ace dual pivot (or is it triple?) caliper with Shimano ST-9001 STi lever for a brake lever/shifter. That is our "Level 10" gold standard.

The Magura/Cervelo aero brake has to be a 10, maybe even the elusive "11".

Beneath it, well beneath it, is the hodge-podge of "all feature, no empirical benefit", "styling" brakes that are under the bottom bracket, behind the fork, etc. They likely provide no tangible performance benefit, are more time consuming to properly set-up than the benchmark caliper, require more practice to set-up adequately and are trickier to pack and unpack from a flight case and also don't hold center easily or facilitate easy pad/brake shoe replacement.

Do disc brakes subvert this? No. And, they destroy race wheel compatibility. They mutilate race wheel resale. Look at what the "upgrade" (sic) to 11-speed has done to race wheel compatibility. It drives consumers nuts. It drives dealers somewhat nuts. And did it provide a tangible benefit commensurate with the costs involved, including the intangible cost of hassle?

I'm all for innovation. The P5? Bring it. Beautiful bike. Well done. The latest Trek? pretty good- at least not entirely disastrous. Others... well, I still work in the industry...

The ironic thing is that all Tri/TT bikes already HAVE "disc brakes"...it's just that some folks insist on using a poor material as a braking surface, and really only because of fashion :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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.....in the dry.......

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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What has struck me from reading this is the focus on saving (or not loosing) time through aeroness (or lack of) on raceday. All the talk has been about races, and yeah the vast majority of tris probably aren't going to be so taxing on brakes, so therefore I get the no benefit argument in that context. But what about the rest of the time you use your bike? My experience is that I've always ridden roads in training that are way more technical than what I'll experience on race day. My last ironman had probably 10 points on the course that you needed to brake, and just to regulate speed mainly, with a turnaround (x2) and the dismount, so yeah, not a heap of value from disc brakes there. But my training for the event saw me go over all sorts of roads with winding descents or varying road surface quality, all shared with other road users, and that's were I'd have appreciated the superior braking of discs. If you can't get to race day, then there's not much point in all the aero you can buy.

I've just made a case for another bike in the stable haven't I? n+1
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [dlarochelle] [ In reply to ]
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dlarochelle wrote:
Just a thought on disc brake on tri bike (or road bike).

I am a triathlete and a decent mountain biker.

Disc brakes are noisy! Not when you actually brake, but when the wheels are turning. It does not amount to much when you re mountain biking because of all the sounds and noises around. But when riding a road or a tri bike, with just the sound from the friction tire/road and your own breathing, that squeaky, annoying, high-pitched metallic gets rough.

Even if they re well tuned, they do cry quite a lot.

So... not on my road or tri bike anytime soon. But they look great.

Then you are not properly adjusting your brakes. You either learn to do it right or change your bike shop. My CX road bike with disc brakes and my full suspension MTB with disc brakes have ZERO, NO, NADA, brake noise, EVEN WHEN BRAKING.

.

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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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When I first read the article, or first started reading about disc brakes in general, I thought, "Nah, my brakes are fine."

But I ride a lot of hills, and we all have to contend with at least some traffic. I find that since I'm not a time-trialing pro on a closed course and with extreme bike handling skills, that having good brakes is something that I care about.

Couple that with the apparently diminishing aero penalty, and I think disc brakes are a great idea.


Chris Harris
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Grill wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Grill wrote:
[People saying they would sacrifice 15w for discs is just scary and shows that discs are not aimed at those who are serious about going as fast as possible.


So? Is anyone forcing you do ride discs on your bike? No? So why do you care?

This is a discussion about disc brakes on TT/Tri bikes. Bikes that are meant to go as fast as possible. My observation simply illustrates how they're counterintuitive the 'for' argument is. You'd be able to keep up with my train of thought if you were more aero. ;)

Everyone, at some point, makes aero sacrifices in trade-off for something else. Whether the trade-off is worth it is highly individual.

Again, no one is forcing you to ride discs, so why do you care what others do?

Why do you care that he cares? We can play this game forever.

He is contributing to a discussion about the pros and cons of disc brakes. He may not care but he has an opinion, and a pretty relevant one at that.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Tom Demerly wrote:

The ironic thing is that all Tri/TT bikes already HAVE "disc brakes"...it's just that some folks insist on using a poor material as a braking surface, and really only because of fashion :-/


^^^this What's better, a simple mechanics cable actuated brake with a 70cm diameter rotor, or a 10cm disc that requires hydraulics and high clamping forces to stop adequately and has a lot less mass and surface to resist overheating.

The primary reason disc brakes on MTB were popular is because of mud getting on the rim, and rim durability and damage. You can have a stronger, lighter rim without a braking surface. Aerodynamics aren't a factor. Cables get mucked up anyway so sealed hydraulics were an advantage despite complexity. If not for complexity, weight and cost and the low speeds involved, I think many MTB might have dual discs up front.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have 2 bikes with discs (a hydraulic disc MTB, and a mechanical disc Salsa Fargo) and 2 with rim brakes (Tri bike and road bike). I'm with Dan on this. The only trouble I've had with discs is when I was new to them and cleaned the disc with some WD40 (HooWee. were they ever shiny?) and had NO BRAKING. But, other than that, I love them. I have ZERO trouble re-centering discs when i change wheels. And, rim brakes with a broken spoke, or lumpy rim are no fun. But, that only ever happens when I'm up in the mountains 30 miles from home. Perhaps it is my lack of skill, but if I could get a disc equipped Tri bike with something close to the aerodynamic drag of a rim equipped version......

BTW, I keep wondering why I ever bought a road bike and not a CX bike. I don't race crits, so I don't see the advantage of a road bike. I see guys up on the mountain trails and fire roads on CX bikes (and even unicycles), but not on road bikes. I told my brother this, so he bought a really nice carbon road bike, but later picked up a used CX bike on Craig's list. Guess which one gets ridden more these days?

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"You lost me at disc brakes. "

+1
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom Demerly wrote:
Disc brakes on tri bikes:

A feature without a benefit.


Sorry Tom, I agree with you on a lot of stuff you write here, except for this. I recently did Ironman Whistler where it was raining about 80% during the bike portion. The whole time I was riding down Callahan to the village, and from there 20 miles downhill to Pemberton, I kept on thinking that I should have brought my my road bike with disc brakes. I swear I feared for my life going down those hills even at a reasonable 35 mph, and I am no cycling newbie.

That feature (had I disc brakes on my Speed Concept) would have been a tremendous benefit that day.

.

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Last edited by: paxfobiscum: Oct 19, 15 13:29
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [paxfobiscum] [ In reply to ]
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paxfobiscum wrote:

That feature (disc brakes on my Speed Concept) would have been a tremendous benefit that day.

.

Emphasis added.....because the question should really be "how many of 'those days' do you encounter, and is it worth the tradeoff on the days when you don't need that 'benefit'?"

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I dont know about you but of the six Ironmans I have done, three were done during the rain (two at LP and one an Whistler). That day, as you emphasized, is not only one day. I would pay a thousand dollars more to save my life for one day in a race.

.

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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [paxfobiscum] [ In reply to ]
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paxfobiscum wrote:
I recently did Ironman Whistler where it was raining about 80% during the bike portion. The whole time I was riding down Callahan to the village, and from there 20 miles downhill to Pemberton, I kept on thinking that I should have brought my my road bike with disc brakes. I swear I feared for my life going down those hills even at a reasonable 35 mph, and I am no cycling newbie.


What kind of race wheels were you running? Carbon braking surface? Those are bad, and essentially useless in any moisture. That's why I favor alloy brake tracks on my race wheels.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [paxfobiscum] [ In reply to ]
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paxfobiscum wrote:
I dont know about you but of the six Ironmans I have done, three were done during the rain (two at LP and one an Whistler). That day, as you emphasized, is not only one day. I would pay a thousand dollars more to save my life for one day in a race.

.

I didn't realize you died in the race....my condolences for your loss. I can see where that changes you POV.


Are those the only races you do? Are those the only times you ride outside?


I get the whole "You may only need it once.....but which 'once'?" mentality......but in the case of discs for a tri bike (and even a road bike), I am not close to convinced that the trade-off is worth it....yet. May it get there? Absolutely....but not right now.



Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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All my wheels (except for my commuter bike and MTB) have carbon rims. The Speed Concept that I have used in all my Ironmans came standard with carbon wheels. As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid riding in the rain beyond just wheel-related reasons. I also do not have a spare set of wheels for rainy days.

A week before Ironman Whistler, the temps there were hot and there was even a forest fire near Pemberton and everyone was praying for rain because the WTC had sent emails (or posted in FB?) stating that the race might be cancelled due to air quality issues. The day we arrived in Whistler (Weds) it was really hot. Temps stayed in the 70s until Saturday night. On Sunday, the rain gods decided to open up the heavens and it rained practically the whole day. Temps dropped 30 degrees from the day before and I saw riders on the side of the road shivering like crazy. It was so cold that braking while shivering was dangerous. (Maybe the gods were pro disc brakes). The day after, the temps soared back up to the 80s.

Am I supposed to bring a spare set of alum race wheels travelling to a foreign country for a race just for this kind of unpredictability? Should I have bought from Trek an alum track wheelset for the speed concept just for "these" types of conditions?

Ultimately, we should just leave the rider to ride what he wants to ride. My point is that if a manufacturer offered disc brakes on a Tri bike, I would line up for one in a heartbeat. We spend hundreds of dollars for aero helmets, aero cockpits, aero hidden brakes - for what? A few minutes gain, probably even less for oldies like me. I would rather spend that money on a better braking system on my tri bike. I already have a road bike with disc brakes and it is my best bike.

.

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Last edited by: paxfobiscum: Oct 19, 15 14:18
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

There is a guy who used to run the A2 tunnel who has some very interesting ideas on this subject and he's way ahead of anyone else's thinking. It may be worth speaking with him.

The current wind tunnel information on disc brakes are what they are but one must think outside the norm here. In it's current state, disc brakes show no advantage for triathletes however in the "next generation" of disc brakes I think triathletes may be more open to their advantages.

Just my thoughts and buy Ceepo, we offer an option for a front disc brake so take that for what you make of it!

http://www.drivetriansports.com

Steven Harad
215.359.6964
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [paxfobiscum] [ In reply to ]
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paxfobiscum wrote:
All my wheels (except for my commuter bike and MTB) have carbon rims. The Speed Concept that I have used in all my Ironmans came standard with carbon wheels. As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid riding in the rain beyond just wheel-related reasons. I also do not have a spare set of wheels for rainy days.

A week before Ironman Whistler, the temps there were hot and there was even a forest fire near Pemberton and everyone was praying for rain because the WTC had sent emails (or posted in FB?) stating that the race might be cancelled due to air quality issues. The day we arrived in Whistler (Weds) it was really hot. Temps stayed in the 70s until Saturday night. On Sunday, the rain gods decided to open up the heavens and it rained practically the whole day. Temps dropped 30 degrees from the day before and I saw riders on the side of the road shivering like crazy. It was so cold that braking while shivering was dangerous. (Maybe the gods were pro disc brakes). The day after, the temps soared back up to the 80s.

Am I supposed to bring a spare set of alum race wheels travelling to a foreign country for a race just for this kind of unpredictability? Should I have bought from Trek an alum track wheelset for the speed concept just for "these" types of conditions?

Ultimately, we should just leave the rider to ride what he wants to ride. My point is that if a manufacturer offered disc brakes on a Tri bike, I would line up for one in a heartbeat. We spend hundreds of dollars for aero helmets, aero cockpits, aero hidden brakes - for what? A few minutes gain, probably even less for oldies like me. I would rather spend that money on a better braking system on my tri bike. I already have a road bike with disc brakes and it is my best bike.

.

I don't get this entire attitude...the PROBLEM (see bolded above) you're attempting to solve is caused entirely by a misapplication of a material (i.e. using carbon as a braking surface). So, instead of addressing that problem and switching to wheels that HAVE a good braking surface (I personally would recommend some Hed Jets with the new Turbine brake track)...you would rather get a completely new bike that is adding weight and aero drag?? Those wheels don't need to be "spare" wheels...they should be your "go to" wheels...for everything!

If you're OK with adding weight (which is a VERY low factor in this regard) by switching to a separate braking disc equipped bike (rim brakes ARE discs, BTW), why not just get the wheels with the better braking surfaces and be done with it? Plus, you get to keep the aerodynamic advantage.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Disc Brakes on Tri Bikes [CEEPO USA] [ In reply to ]
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CEEPO USA wrote:
Dan,

There is a guy who used to run the A2 tunnel who has some very interesting ideas on this subject and he's way ahead of anyone else's thinking. It may be worth speaking with him.

The current wind tunnel information on disc brakes are what they are but one must think outside the norm here. In it's current state, disc brakes show no advantage for triathletes however in the "next generation" of disc brakes I think triathletes may be more open to their advantages.

Just my thoughts and buy Ceepo, we offer an option for a front disc brake so take that for what you make of it!

http://www.drivetriansports.com

"next generation"...as in, perhaps, maybe MORE integration? I like that idea...as I outlined here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5632431#5632431

Quote:
Travis R wrote:
Stop me if I'm going off-topic here, but I'm wondering if disc brakes can eventually be more aero than rim brakes. My thought is that there could be gains by using a smaller diameter, solid disc. Another area could be the rim itself. Since heat management of a brake surface near the bead of the tire is no longer a concern, perhaps that area could now be thinner or made to integrate better with the tire to make it more aero. I dunno - just kind of thinking out loud...
On another tangent, in-hub drum brakes seem to have aerodynamic potential in theory, but implementation would be another story...


I have an idea...what if we make the braking disc even LARGER?...and then, for the best aerodynamics, integrate it into the rim?

Think about it...then the calipers could be centrally located within the frames for even better aero, and the spokes could be made lighter since they no longer have to transfer the braking loads to the tire (not to mention the forks and frames could be lighter since less reinforcement is needed)...and, since the braking diameter can be SO large (leading to massive braking torque) the braking surface could be made lighter by switching from steel to a lighter aluminum alloy...possibly with a machined and hard coated surface for better all-weather performance.

Boy...if only we could skip this current awkward separate braking disc phase and proceed directly to THAT technologically advanced stage...if only someone made something like THAT...


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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