I might be wrong, but I believe with the Kikr you'll get actual powers #s because it's a smart trainer where KK will be virtual power. Some one chime in and tell me I'm wrong, because I'm not 100% on this

TR can run virtual power or connect to your existing PM. Kickr can work in Erg mode which will automatically adjust resistance(smart trainer) to the TR workout. I have a cheap used powertap wheel that I use on a KK road trainer with TR.

The KK does not put up any response. It's completely brain dead.

What you are looking for is the KICKR.

This, if you want to have any resistance control in response to any terrain / any interactive simulation you need a "smart" trainer.

This is slightly out of date as it doesn't have the Snap or some of the new high-end offerings from Tacx but I'd still encourage the OP to have a read through: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...recommendations.html

Thx. That was a useful read.

Now, I'm trying to see if a KICKR Snap for $849 + shipping is worth it over a TACX Vortex Smart for $590 (incl. shipping).

Are these two are equivalent in terms of functionality?

At face value they seem pretty comparable spec wise, both support ANT+ and bluetooth smart, both are supported by more popular apps like TR and Zwift, but I can't seem to find anywhere where Tacx provides an accuracy rating, Wahoo puts the Snap at +/-5%. I think Wahoo still holds the overall lead on compatibility though if you start branching out.

For the price the Vortex sounds very compelling to me but I honestly just don't know anyone who has one who can speak to the ride quality and other less tangible aspects. Tacx is a european brand and are pretty popular over there, but less so in the states. In the past they have had a poor reputation for customer service in North America which DCR has spoken about in some of his reviews. I don't know if their NA support has improved but that might be something to consider based on your location. Wahoo is in Georgia if that helps.

Then again, I don't actually know anyone who has the Snap either so can't speak much to it. I've had the original KICKR for 2 years and came to it from a CompuTrainer, it's a big improvement for me and I've never had an issue with it so I'm somewhat partial to Wahoo. Others may disagree.

I recently bought a Tacx Vortex Smart and for the money and the functionality you get it's fantastic. Ant+ and BT, connects to both Trainerroad and Zwift with no issues.

As I said for the cost I don't think there's anything that bears it - unless you want a direct drive trainer I think this is the best option in the smart trainer field.

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I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes

the NA distributor for wahoo is a total d-bag. but the rest of the guys at wahoo are amazing and the support i've gotten from the other guys have been top notch.

the only tacx i would be interested in is the new smart for the quite factor, but at 1600, i went with the kickr + new roka wetsuit :-D

ymmv.

While the KK is indeed "brain dead", paired with a powermeter and software such as TR it is just as effective of a training tool. The difference is that it forces you to respond to changes in target power by actually shifting gears (the horror!!!) and paying attention. You can use the same PM you use for outdoor riding.

Not saying the extra $400-600 is not worth it.. it just depends on how much the resistance control is worth to you.

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Strava

I got a Kickr Snap but have only ridden it once so far. (Got it when Wahoo had a 10% off, with no tax and free shipping deal). One of the main differences with the Vortex will be the flywheel. I came from an Elite Chrono fluid trainer and clearly the flywheel on the Snap makes the road feel much better. THe Vortex doesn't have a flywheel and is entirely electronic which I think won't be as good. Also, the capacity of the Kickr Snap in terms of resistance is much higher, it can control resistance over a much wider range of power levels. Something to consider for sure.

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Don't forget to attack!

Great point about the feel - if I had caught your same deal on the Snap, I might've pulled the trigger myself.

Right now, I might be leaning towards the KK (which reputedly has a decent flywheel) and "manually adjusting" the resistance myself through gearing/effort to match TR's wattage.

The more I think about it, as a recreational triathlete, I just can't get myself to pay $850 (more than the price of a Giant Defy 3 aluminum bike here at $600 in Taiwan) for a trainer, if I can "fake it" by compensating with effort.

However, with the KK, I still have to buy some kind sensors to compensate for its lack of electronics. With the added cost, I may go for the original KK Road instead of the 2.0.

The computer controlled resistance is a nice to have but certainly not essential as you point out. I find it makes the biggest difference for simulations and games like Zwift than it does for more specific interval training. It's certainly nice for intervals as well, but say you are in TR and coming up on a 10 minute set a specific power, it's reasonably easy to just shift into a gear that gets you pretty close to that resistance and grind it out.

For more interactive simulations though where the terrain is constantly changing, the immersion and engagement is way better on a smart trainer. It's arguable which one of these is more valuable, I used to be firmly on the side of specific interval training and essentially just grinding out my sets but after years of that I'm frankly just too bored to stick with it anymore so the best trainer workout is the one that I actually will do, stick with and enjoy.

All that said, the KK is a fine choice for most people. Smart trainers are just a luxury item if you want to spend the dough. One last thing to consider though if you don't need a trainer right away, you might be able to get a better deal in a few months as we approach the holidays. I'm not sure about international shipping since it sounds like you are in Taiwan, but I got my direct-drive KICKR for $879 with no tax and free shipping through a Trisports black friday sale (20% off).

Cobble wrote:

The Vortex doesn't have a flywheel and is entirely electronic which I think won't be as good.

As previously mentioned, the Vortex SMART does not have nearly as much resistance capacity as other trainers and when used with a Tacx application such as Tacx Trainer Software, is immediately evident when training against sustained gradients/virtual terrain that exceeds the resistance range of the Vortex. In this case, the Tacx applications translate the power/speed of the rider into 'virtual speeds' that differ dramatically from the speed at which the rear wheel is actually turning. I cannot speak to apps such as TR or Zwift, but I would imagine that when you exceed the Vortex capacities in those apps, at that point resistance will remain constant instead of continuing to increase as it would with the Kickr Snap or other direct drive trainers.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's my biggest concern with the Vortex (besides possible glitches/long-term build-quality issues vs the KK)...

I guess it's during interval training or steep climbs when these limits would be hit?

This is the most even-headed post I have seen on choosing between a smart and a dumb trainer.

If I can buy a TACX Vortex Smart for about the same price as a KK, should I go for the TACX?

Given your experience, I'm wary of getting bored on a KK over time.

Hi. I'm not the person you directly responded to but thought I would give my opinion since I own both. I got one of the very first KICKRs, first ten actually, and got a hat and t-shirt for it. I know, cool story bro. I mention that because I've spent a lot of time with it. I had a KK before the KICKR and still use the KK at times due to travel.

I love the KICKR and wound have no problem recommending it if you are willing to spend the money. I first started with PeriPedal as an early adopter and it worked well but really didn't have many courses/workouts. I then used TrainerRoad for a year and it was awesome but I wasn't a fan of the monthly cost model. I tried PerfPRO and have found it to be a great middle ground. It has a lot of courses, not as many as TR, but it's a one-time cost, and works great and the developer is constantly updating it.

That being said, I find many times I simply need to get a 1-1.5 hour ride in and don't really want a specific course or workout, so I end up using the Wahoo app to control the KICKR. I could do the same thing on a KK and still use something like TrainerRoad with a KK. My point is that the KICKR is awesome and pretty much pain-free from a usage standpoint but if cost is an issue you can easily use a KK and get the same or better benefit.

I don't think you can go wrong with whatever you choose. Best of luck!

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Loud pawls save lives

My gut feeling would be to still go with the KK. It's a proven excellent mechanical design that will last and has a good power curve and road feel. While you may eventually get bored with it and want a smart trainer, the KK still will be practical as a second or travel trainer or you can always sell it.

The last generation of Tacx's on the other hand didn't have the best reputation for build quality or customer support, has limitations on maximum resistance / simulated grade and I could see it being rendered obsolete more easily.

When it comes to trainers I think you want to start with a solid mechanical platform and then move up to features like smart control. Right now that costs more and the cheaper smart trainers tend to compromise in other areas to bring that price down. My advice would either be to save up for something that has both, or just stick a with a solid dumb trainer until upgrade to a smart trainer in a few years when the price comes down.