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traded volume for speed n=1
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last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

upped the carbs a bit in the diet too, result:
10k = 15s slower
13.1 = 30s slower.


anyone experience similar? what am I doing wrong? I currently touch race paces (say 13.1 pace of 6:40/mi for 3 or so miles) for my workouts which I did not do before
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

upped the carbs a bit in the diet too, result:
10k = 15s slower
13.1 = 30s slower.


anyone experience similar? what am I doing wrong? I currently touch race paces (say 13.1 pace of 6:40/mi for 3 or so miles) for my workouts which I did not do before

Knowing nothing else about your training plan, what were you expecting and why? You reduced your volume 30-40%, and it's not clear you actually added speed work to your program.

Plus, those time differences could be chalked up to weather conditions. Slightly better heat acclimation could have resulted in PRs. Or not. Adding 1 lb of weight could do the same. I would tend to agree that you're not improving (again, not seeing enough details), but you're not slipping much.

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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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you have cut off training time by 30-40% and still can perform similarly. I think it's just ok :))
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Don't want to start a debate as to what qualifies as "speed work," but I generally consider it to be race pace or faster.

Your speed work may not be speedy enough, or you may be doing too much of it. People making the jump from volume to intensity based training sometimes try to do intensity every day, which IMO is usually not sustainable and often counterproductive.
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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What's the composition of those 7-10 miles? It could be all at 7:30/mile or you could be doing a mix of threshold, tempo, and steady running ranging from 5:30-8:30/mile and end up with the same average pace but very different results.
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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TH3_FRB wrote:
What's the composition of those 7-10 miles? It could be all at 7:30/mile or you could be doing a mix of threshold, tempo, and steady running ranging from 5:30-8:30/mile and end up with the same average pace but very different results.

yes much mixing the fast stuff too. 400s , 6:00 or under, 3-8 miles 6:40
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I might be missing something here, but your average workout was 13 miles? How many times a week were you doing that?

If you run 1:28 for a half marathon, I would say you should be doing some km or mile repeats at about 4:00/km or 6:25/mile. That would be my standard 7x1km interval pace with 400m jog pause, when I am in that kind of shape.
I think running 13 miles at 8:30/mile pace is ok, but it is more of a long run if you are training for a 10km or HM. It wouldn't say that it should be your average run distance. 8.5 miles is a better normal distance run, but you should still do some long runs.

I try to simplify things. When doing a proper run training block I run 2 quality sessions a week (1x track intervals + 1x hill repeats) and a long run.
Everything else is at easy pace, about 8:00/km for me. If I increase volume, it all goes in the easy pace bracket.
YMMV
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

This statistic completely leaves out volume.

Unless you're saying that you kept the number of runs the same, then the % decrease in average run distance would also be the same for total run volume...

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [flogazo] [ In reply to ]
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flogazo wrote:
synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace


This statistic completely leaves out volume.

Unless you're saying that you kept the number of runs the same, then the % decrease in average run distance would also be the same for total run volume...

last year 12-14 miles a day for 7 days,
this year 7-10 for 7 days.

so the % of run volume dropped, with the % pace faster.
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Rough assumptions here...

If you're cutting overall volume, but keeping the same amount of quality volume, then the result would be that you're increasing the percentage of quality. This seems to be what you did. Doing 30 miles less per week in that fashion would be a pretty decent chunk of aerobic work to stop doing. I'm not too surprised you slowed down a little.

Abell
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
flogazo wrote:
synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

This statistic completely leaves out volume.
Unless you're saying that you kept the number of runs the same, then the % decrease in average run distance would also be the same for total run volume...

last year 12-14 miles a day for 7 days,
this year 7-10 for 7 days.
so the % of run volume dropped, with the % pace faster.

Just so we're all on the same page, IIRC, you run 7 days/wk, 52 wk/yr, 365 days/yr, right??? So you ran around (13 mi/day) (365 days/yr) = 4745 miles last year. Is this about right??? I'm not sure everyone realizes how much you run. In addition to your 1:27-ish half mary, didn't you also run a 2:57 mary in an iron distance race??? You are quite the runner:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Distance running is almost always a matter of volume.

That said, 15 seconds over a 10K or 30 seconds over a 1/2 marathon don't mean much unless you are averaging times for a bunch of races. Temperature, winds and crowds could all account for that amount from one race to another.

Did you gain any weight from the diet change?
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
In addition to your 1:27-ish half mary, didn't you also run a 2:57 mary in an iron distance race??? You are quite the runner:)

You don't run a 1:27ish half mar and then run a 2:57 mary that doesn't happen.


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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
In addition to your 1:27-ish half mary, didn't you also run a 2:57 mary in an iron distance race??? You are quite the runner:)

You don't run a 1:27ish half mar and then run a 2:57 mary that doesn't happen.

TG - I am fully aware that those two results sound inconsistent, which is why i asked the question to synthetic, the OP. It could be that the 1:27 was a train-through race vs the 2:57 being fully tapered.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
synthetic wrote:
flogazo wrote:
synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

This statistic completely leaves out volume.
Unless you're saying that you kept the number of runs the same, then the % decrease in average run distance would also be the same for total run volume...

last year 12-14 miles a day for 7 days,
this year 7-10 for 7 days.
so the % of run volume dropped, with the % pace faster.


Just so we're all on the same page, IIRC, you run 7 days/wk, 52 wk/yr, 365 days/yr, right??? So you ran around (13 mi/day) (365 days/yr) = 4745 miles last year. Is this about right??? I'm not sure everyone realizes how much you run. In addition to your 1:27-ish half mary, didn't you also run a 2:57 mary in an iron distance race??? You are quite the runner:)

2014 totals:
Swim: 131h 08m 28s - 431932 Yd
Bike: 692h 01m 35s - 9664.42 Mi
Run: 684h 18m 26s - 4657.84 Mi

13.1 , 1:25 is my best during a marathon (twice), 1:26 in an open.
26.2, 2:54 is best in boston. wish i did 2:57 mary in iron distance .

I am comparing the results of same races i did this year and last ( I do something every 2 weeks) and I have averaged out the numbers that showed the decrease. Well it seems the only solution here is return to my volume levels and try to maintain this new natural pace. Kind of hard when you are pressed for time.
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Re: traded volume for speed n=1 [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
synthetic wrote:
flogazo wrote:
synthetic wrote:
last year average workout: 12-14 mi = 8:30 pace
this year: 7-10 = 7:30 pace

This statistic completely leaves out volume.
Unless you're saying that you kept the number of runs the same, then the % decrease in average run distance would also be the same for total run volume...

last year 12-14 miles a day for 7 days,
this year 7-10 for 7 days.
so the % of run volume dropped, with the % pace faster.


Just so we're all on the same page, IIRC, you run 7 days/wk, 52 wk/yr, 365 days/yr, right??? So you ran around (13 mi/day) (365 days/yr) = 4745 miles last year. Is this about right??? I'm not sure everyone realizes how much you run. In addition to your 1:27-ish half mary, didn't you also run a 2:57 mary in an iron distance race??? You are quite the runner:)


2014 totals:
Swim: 131h 08m 28s - 431932 Yd
Bike: 692h 01m 35s - 9664.42 Mi
Run: 684h 18m 26s - 4657.84 Mi

13.1 , 1:25 is my best during a marathon (twice), 1:26 in an open.
26.2, 2:54 is best in Boston. wish i did 2:57 mary in iron distance .

I am comparing the results of same races i did this year and last ( I do something every 2 weeks) and I have averaged out the numbers that showed the decrease. Well it seems the only solution here is return to my volume levels and try to maintain this new natural pace. Kind of hard when you are pressed for time.

Well, training about 30 hr/wk will leave almost anyone "pressed for time"; that is a huge amount of training!!!

Your 1:25 half was in a marathon??? Or did you mean in a half iron???

Guess I had you confused with someone else who said they went 2:57 in an iron race but still, 2:54 at Boston is quite good:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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