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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [mcclelland] [ In reply to ]
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mcclelland wrote:
So if I want to limit fructose, is maltodextrin or the malto-based drinks the way to go? Is glucose syrup a viable option? It seems anything like honey or maple syrup are good easy diy options but a bit heavy on the fructose.

I would say a mixture would be best. Malto only if in doubt. Or malto based plus a day of honey or syrup. Malto on its own tastes more chalky than sweet.

Try some of the popular stuff a few times before your event. It would be really hard to go wrong with a single bottle of HEED, Gu Brew, Skratch, Osmo, or many others on the bike of your originally mentioned event. As Trev was saying, there's no reason to pack down lots of water and calories for only a couple hours. I'm of the belief that going entirely without calories and fluids for your race may not be a great idea.

Prentice nutrition and race hard!
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [mcclelland] [ In reply to ]
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Gotta say I really believe it's more to do with how much salt you perspire rather than how long the effort is.
I recently switched to a product called EAS Hydrate made by Abbott. Tastes great in Orange and has plenty of sodium and potassium. Doesn't hurt my gut either. first tri using it I PR'd the bike before getting yanked of the course due to electrical storm. Really felt awesome and was actually looking forward to the run...which never happened. Gonna give it another go at this Sundays tri.

---------------
It's not about what you've done, it's about what you're doing!
@trecca17
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trecca17] [ In reply to ]
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Trecca17 wrote:
Gotta say I really believe it's more to do with how much salt you perspire rather than how long the effort is.
I recently switched to a product called EAS Hydrate made by Abbott. Tastes great in Orange and has plenty of sodium and potassium. Doesn't hurt my gut either. first tri using it I PR'd the bike before getting yanked of the course due to electrical storm. Really felt awesome and was actually looking forward to the run...which never happened. Gonna give it another go at this Sundays tri.

In an event lasting 2 hours it isn't possible you would sweat out enough salt to need to take in any salt. In 2 hours all you will do is sweat out some of the excess salt you started off with.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
mcclelland wrote:
So if I want to limit fructose, is maltodextrin or the malto-based drinks the way to go? Is glucose syrup a viable option? It seems anything like honey or maple syrup are good easy diy options but a bit heavy on the fructose.


I would say a mixture would be best. Malto only if in doubt. Or malto based plus a day of honey or syrup. Malto on its own tastes more chalky than sweet.

Try some of the popular stuff a few times before your event. It would be really hard to go wrong with a single bottle of HEED, Gu Brew, Skratch, Osmo, or many others on the bike of your originally mentioned event. As Trev was saying, there's no reason to pack down lots of water and calories for only a couple hours. I'm of the belief that going entirely without calories and fluids for your race may not be a great idea.

Prentice nutrition and race hard!


If we assume the original poster can put out 200 watts for 2 hours and they are burning 80% carbohydrate and 20% fats and protein it works out at approx 1150 calories over 2 hours from carbohydrate. That would mean they would have started the event with plenty of glycogen in muscles blood and liver, so there would be no need to take on board carbs during the event.

And that is assuming they can put out 200 watts for 2 hours and they do burn as much as 80% carbohydrate.

However, as they obviously hold the belief they need to take on carbohydrate they may well have an emotional need to take in some carbohydrate so I see no harm in them taking in some carbs during the event. Knowing they have access to some carbs would give them confidence.



And of course if they are unable to complete the event in approx 2 hours they may well then 'need' some carbs.

There is absolutely no need to take in any salt or electrolytes in a 2 hour event.

The important thing is to start the event properly fuelled.
Last edited by: Trev: Aug 1, 15 2:16
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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Like to know more about honey use in IM training. Like how much? Paired with what? Please email rplantz@nisource.com

KQ strategy - Outlive the competition
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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Trev wrote:
If we assume the original poster can put out 200 watts for 2 hours and they are burning 80% carbohydrate and 20% fats and protein it works out at approx 1150 calories over 2 hours from carbohydrate. That would mean they would have started the event with plenty of glycogen in muscles blood and liver, so there would be no need to take on board carbs during the event.

And that is assuming they can put out 200 watts for 2 hours and they do burn as much as 80% carbohydrate.

Not bad. Assuming OP is 150lbs and his power output across all events averages 200 watts, that is fairly correct. Only 80% of energy coming from carbs might be a little low if OP is truly pushing. Closer to 200lbs and 90% of of energy coming froms carbs would be a better guess if OP is based out of the good ol USA. Given the same RPE, the caloric output may be slightly higher for swimming. It's definitely going to be higher for running. 200 watts for an hour would be pretty dang good for an entry level athlete, so maybe 200 watts across the board was a generous estimate?

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just presenting other ways to look at it. There's plenty of support that the brain starts bonking before muscles do and then tells the body to slow down. If anything, sucking down 200 calories on the bike with enough fluids to get it into the system might be the difference between finishing great and dragging himself across the line. With more training and different diet (making the horrible assumption OP isn't well trained and has become carb dependent like many of us in the USA...I'm sorry OP, I like you. Heck, I may even love you for being able to get your family into the sport.) maybe OP would store more muscle gylcogen and burn a bit more fat at high intensity. I have done enough vo2 testing to know that it's not common at all to see some of the examples in your ftp/rer thread. I would honestly have to see it to believe it at this point. Most people are going straight sugars once things start getting hard.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental CHO during exercise begins to be beneficial.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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It's difficult to argue with someone that clearly has little practical experience
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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^ doesn't that study run a little counter to your earlier advice?
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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+1 Great response.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Tapeworm] [ In reply to ]
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Not at all. You need to look at the durations in the tests.

""cyclists ingested approximately 200 g of carbohydrate (i.e., 3 g/kg of body weight) in a 50% solution (Exceed, Ross Laboratories) prior to the point of fatigue. The feeding was given after 135 min of exercise, which was on average approximately 35 min prior to the point of fatigue when a placebo solution was ingested. Based upon previous gastric emptying experiments (Foster et al., 1980), we reasoned that 35 min might be long enough to allow a sufficient amount of glucose to enter the blood.

During a fourth trial the cyclists ingested approximately 200 g of carbohydrate (i.e., 3 g/kg of body weight) in a 50% solution (Exceed, Ross Laboratories) prior to the point of fatigue. The feeding was given after 135 min of exercise, which was on average approximately 35 min prior to the point of fatigue when a placebo solution was ingested. Based upon previous gastric emptying experiments (Foster et al., 1980), we reasoned that 35 min might be long enough to allow a sufficient amount of glucose to enter the blood."""

Note the feeding was given after 135 minutes which is on average 35 minutes before point of fatigue. So the average point of fatigue was 2 hours 50 minutes.

Add to this the fact the subjects were overnight fasted. How much longer before fatigue if they had eaten a good dinner and breakfast before the test?

I maintain you don't need to take on carbohydrate for an event lasting only 2 hours.
Last edited by: Trev: Aug 2, 15 6:56
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [mtbr] [ In reply to ]
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mtbr wrote:
It's difficult to argue with someone that clearly has little practical experience

Do you disagree with this statement?

"Around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental CHO during exercise begins to be beneficial."
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Anton84] [ In reply to ]
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Anton84 wrote:
+1 Great response.

Thanks Anton.

Also, thanks for passing me last minute at that awful Chicago ITU race last year. Awesome Possum, correct?
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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Trev wrote:
Interesting study.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK231122/


Trev, you're clearly addressing me much more than OP here.

It's an interesting study. The IV carb solution was kind of weird, but that doesn't seem to be part of what you're trying to present here.

Some things that negate this study's relation to OP's situation.

1) 70% of VO2 max is not very high at all. Not many would considere it "strenuous" as the title suggests. You are throwing your money away if you sign up for an event that requires your best (or near best) effort for 2 hours and only go 70% of your VO2 max during the events. 70% would be associated with long slow distance were you are training to use more fat as a fuel. Of course they went much longer before exhaustion, they weren't working that hard.

2) "Trained" cyclists (which they used according to the methods) have a longer time to fatigue. Possibly more so in the sport they are trained in.

3) Research papers have to show "significant" statistical differences for anybody in the sciencey world to take them seriously. There are rarely "significant" statistical differences between top finishers in a race. We had two local sprint tris this year that essentially serve as pride races for our tri club. I came in second by 21 seconds and second by 5 seconds at them. In a race where the average finish was ~90 minutes, I can promise there are no statistically significant differences between the top two finish times. This is Slowtwitch where we argue about the eyeball aeroness of different basebars. Every second matters.

4) Why did they wait 135 minutes before letting them ingest anything?? That has no crossover to any race I have heard of.


Read these direct quotes from the discussion section of your source:

"These findings indicate that people should not wait until they are fatigued before they ingest carbohydrate, because it is likely that the rate of entry of glucose into the blood is too slow to match the rate of removal. "

As discussed previously, a person should not wait until he or she is fatigued before ingesting carbohydrate."

"We expect that the effectiveness of carbohydrate feeding in delaying fatigue, when first provided at a time less than 30 min prior to anticipated fatigue, varies among individuals."

"Large differences in individual response were observed when individuals were fed at fatigue, as previously discussed."

"We therefore recommend that carbohydrate feeding should begin, at the latest, 30 min prior to the anticipated fatigue."

"In separate studies we have shown that fatigue can be delayed 30-60 min both when feedings are taken throughout exercise (Coyle et al., 1983, 1986)."
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Anton84 wrote:
+1 Great response.

Thanks Anton.

Also, thanks for passing me last minute at that awful Chicago ITU race last year. Awesome Possum, correct?

Ha ha - yep. Hopefully I did not dive in front of you at the finish line :) (pink)
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Anton84] [ In reply to ]
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No, you were super cool. I'm not sure we were even in the same 30-34 wave.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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So for anyone who still cares, we ended up practicing with two different homemade drinks:

-1/4c maple syrup, and the juice of 1 lemon + pinch of salt, mixed with water in a ~24oz bottle
-1/4c brown rice syrup, 2tbsp orange juice, 2tbsp lemon juice, pinch of salt, also mixed in 24oz bottle.

I discovered that brown rice syrup has a higher glycemic index than maple syrup or honey, as it mostly glucose, but does not taste as sweet. Both of the mixes were fine stomach-wise in training, but we found the maple syrup to just be too sweet, so we ended up going with the brown rice syrup on race day, which tasted a darn lot like Gatorade! So the taste for me wasn't great but I could tolerate it (plus I know all of the ingredients, and no artificial colors, etc.). I ended up drinking about 1/2 of my bottle on the bike and about 1/2 bottle of plain water. Felt great the whole race, better than my previous two sprint races (which were shorter than this one). I finished in 1:56:xx. Did the calories on the bike help? Who knows. Did they hurt? Absolutely not. I *feel* like they might possibly have helped recovery, as my legs feel great today, and mentally I told myself they would help during the race so if that was the only "real" benefit, I will take it!

My daughter took a couple of sips of her drink on the bike, but found that her stomach wasn't going to have it and just took in water after that. Her race was much shorter, though, at 1:20:xx.

Thanks all for the tips and discussion, regardless of which side of the "2 hour debate" you fall.
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [mcclelland] [ In reply to ]
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Nice work out there! Sounds like you did great!
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Re: Liquid nutrition without the artificial crap [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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Trev wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I never said clinical evidence, you just assumed that.


Please post any evidence then.


This one might be of relevance. In essence, you are more or less correct and incorrect. Can one perform decently without exogenous CHO during an Oly? Sure. Is CHO without effect? No, there are effects. Are the effects of importance in magnitude? I think that this depends on the individuals goals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22616665


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