Dan for your poll you should restrict it to half or full IM. Something that takes really long where body functions come into play. Only then will we get a more clear picture. I'd even take it step further and only apply the question to IM, in the sense that unless you have been at mile 22 with low blood sugar and maybe messed up electrolytes and low will power it is hard to really appreciate how people will deal with suddenly having to relieve themselves. Even mile 100 into an IM bike and suddenly you have 12 miles (which might be a full hour at some races with uphill finishes) to get to the next porta potty. Peeing your pants should be a non issue. As long as an athlete does not expose him/herself to the general public, no worries. The future of the race won't be jeopardized. Just tell us the rule is to keep body parts concealed and beyond that pee in your diapers like a baby if you have to. If you want to take your diapers off, go to the porta potty. This would be very simple and clear cut.

In the old days there were no port-a-pots on long distance courses.....for the folks doing this 20 years, the "yes" answer would have to be 100% (ore a full bladder exam!).

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

So are we just talking about just men or men and women openly stopping on the side of the road and urinating or stopping and descretly finding a place hidden in the bushes? I doubt people, participants or local residents would be as tolerate if it were women doing this. I do find it inconsiderate, disrespctable and somewhat offensive but of public view I dont.I've been racing for 30 yrs and have have seen this many times open on the road in Ironman and 70.3. All men. I've found it unfair as I've had to find and wait at Porta potties. At vineman more than once this was as issue for me when Kona slots were on the line and they clearly emphasized Dq but men were pulling out stopped by the road edge anyway
As far as a Dq if they said it in the race meeting etc and then carried through when it was disregarded by a participant then it should have been a dq.

Bad WTC, of whom we all had thought he would be the ONE good bully.
Seriously. Puritanism at it's finest and nothing unexpected (draconian penalties to keep up the appearances).

Next up: DQ for nudity in transition.

"So are we just talking about just men or men and women openly stopping on the side of the road and urinating or stopping and descretly finding a place hidden in the bushes?"

i think that's the difference. are you even trying to be discrete? that's part of it. as for men versus women, in my experience women seem more capable of just peeing on the bike. do you disagree? i'm no expert. but i think this helps explain why you tend to see men on the side of the road more than women. interested in if you think my guess is actually true (i'm teachable).

mostly i just want to know what you all can expect from officials, and if they want you using porta-potties what the standard is for the concentration and dispersion of these along the bike course.

my sense about this topic over the last week is that you all just ought to know what the rules are, how it's going to be officiated, what is tolerated, what is appropriate, is it going to change race by race, and whether race officials are going to make accommodation to offset whatever rules they ask you to abide by.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have peed in my wetsuit while on land.

I have peed in my wetsuit while in the water.

I have peed while riding.

I have stopped and peed on the side of the road.

I have peed while running (without even breaking stride).

I have stopped and peed on the side of the road while running.

Adequate hydratation (overadequate?) has never been a problem for me.

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----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Dan,

I just think that the city hosting the event will have a hard time with this language, when their laws say, essentially, what WTC rules currently state. And doesn't WTC owe it to the city to follow city laws? If Ironman displeases the city, then bye-bye to Ironman, or any other race that, in its rules, says, "If you have to pee and can't make it to a port-a-potty, just don't get caught." At least a few people on most city councils will have a problem with that philosophy.

who officiates the officials??? Maybe it could be like golf, where they can give themselves a penalty -_-

To be fair while I have pee'd on my bike (and liked it). I wouldn't want to pee on my motorcycle; because street clothes wouldn't dry as easily and, would retain the "odor." Plus, I love my motorcycle more.

Now as a favor to my ST friends, the link below is from the funniest ST thread of all time - call it my birthday present to YOU.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._I_Liked_It_P3467762

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Tom,

Pardon me if this has already been covered (and sure it has within the 9 pages, thus far) but I am wondering an athlete can pee in their kit without pulling their hog out?


PT

ps The only time I have reprimanded for peeing on the bike was from Noreen (my wife) at El Tour de Tucson......on our tandem!

"Peeing outside of a bathroom, in plain view of others, however, should result in a penalty"

Why? This is the part I don't get. Because I assume he means if he sees my back as I am fishing along the tree line and not facing the road swinging it like a lariat or however you put it earlier. If you can't see the mechanics of what I am doing how is it offensive just to know that I am peeing? I know you are peeing when you go in the portajohn too. Maybe we should have a penalty if I can hear you when you are in the portajohn.

I know women never fart, that some people never masturbate, and some people's poop smells vaguely of roses. But almost everyone pees. I'm not quite clear why it is just assumed that being able to see someone while they are peeing but not actually seeing pieces parts doing the peeing should be penalized. Because I said so doesn't quite cut it.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

this is nebulous. it's not about safety except if you use some kind of oblique, tortured argument, and i can make a stronger argument for safety if you allow somebody to pee when they need to. it's not about gaining an advantage. it's not really about giving offense, in that there's no private parts showing (unless there are), and it's not like you're specifically trying to offend someone (as you would be if you're using profanity in some excessive way).

i think it's more about making sure you don't offend the local host community, and this means the very same behavior either might or might not be a penalty, depending on where you engage in it. and, it's a rule that won't be written. no one will write this rule, not WTC nor USAT.

so this issue has got to sit in there somewhere, with the above 2 paragraphs as stipulations. i'm trading emails with jimmy right now, and we're trying to find the right vocabulary and language and themes to give you all something to hang your hats on.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think urinating on course has to be officially against the rules but discretion needs to be used liberally with enforcement. And, this incident aside, I bet it most likely is.

Now, for not offending the local community, I am guilty of an incident on the Lake Placid course that certainly had the potential to offend and I do not know whether was against the rules. I over-biked and over-ate on the bike and my stomach shut down on me for the run. But, of course I didn't realize this and was throwing down liquids and food for the first loop of the run as well, not knowing that it was all just piling up in my stomach. On the out-and-back in town it all came to a head and I had to unload it. I pulled off into a residents lawn where some nice folks were cheering, and unloaded gallons of my stomach contents right in front of them. It was awful and 10 years later I still feel bad about it. But, my stomach said I needed to throw up right then and there, so it happened. It was certainly more offensive to that poor family having an afternoon cocktail than if I had chosen to pee in the woods. But, was it against the rules?

 
The comment from the official was that if I took one more step into the woods we would not be having this discussion is insanity.

He could heve told you to go deeper into the woods.

I could not count the number of times I've been riding along and seen a stream coming off of the person in front of me on the bike. As long as they're not trying to pee on me it is just part of the triathlon ambiance.

do we have any details about the location of the infraction? Peeing in the woods (or into the woods) should be a minor infraction. If it's against the law IM probably has to at least make it against the rules. But stopping and peeing on someone's yard should be an immediate DQ. Just an attitude/entitlement issue.

Hell, even olympic medalists pee (http://www.usmagazine.com/...l-at-olympics-201258) why can't we?

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Just wandering...
Other cyclist must have seen him peeing and didn't complain of being offended (as far as I know)
No locals have seen him and/or complained of being offended (as far as I know)
Was the official offended??

Actually, starting this year, snorkels are only legal if you have a medical condition with supporting documentation from a physician.

Rule 4.01(f)

http://www.ironman.com/~/media/e573751ff47e4f758a28565a453f79c0.ashx

I love your line of thinking (seriously). It reminds me of: If a tree falls in the woods but nobody hears it, did it make any noise when falling???

My, we can get quite philosophical here on ST :-)

I'll admit to peeing on the bike in a few events (no event names however), I'll doubt anyone ever knew, mostly because I can't pee in front of anybody else. Sad but true.

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I totally agree with Paul regarding peeing on the bike (while rolling) if you're not exposing yourself. I had to pee three times at IM Canada, but mostly was stealth due to the rain, but there was one where I could have been snagged. If I had not peed on the bike, I would not have gotten a Kona slot. I'll take the DQ risk every time, given the tight tolerances. I think stopping and hanging out your peter to pee is a different matter since you are in fact exposing yourself and I get that as an issue.

+1
I didn't race for Kona slot but in 2003 I did what was my last IM for a very long time. I trained long and hard with a goal to go go sub 11. Had i stopped to pee every time I had to I would have gone well over 11hrs. With peeing on the roll, it was 10:58. Now I can retire in peace :-)

Thought this article was relevant. Looks like if you ever do a race in SF, be courteous and pee on a fire hydrant (and stay away from light poles). I've never been to SF but this article (along with the link in it) make it sound like public urination is a problem - either that or people really aren't as offended by public urination as we thought and thus we shouldn't be subject to a DQ for it during races?


http://sfist.com/...05/urine_trouble.php

According to San Francisco's Public Utilities Commission, a lamp post that toppled over and nearly crushed a driver had been terminally compromised by a most deadly combination: human and dog urine.

...

�We encourage people and dogs alike to do their business in other places, like a proper restroom or one of our fire hydrants, which are stronger and made out of cast iron."

I had a buddy go 11.00.22 in this first and only IM in Penticton 1995....he's still pissed (literally) that he stopped 3-4 times to pee. 10.59.59 would be so much better if he could just have pee'd his tri suit on the bike.