Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that?

Jul 20, 15 6:16

Post #1 of 19 (37727 views)

I dusted off my HR monitor on Saturday and did my local park 5k (very hilly). I worked as hard as I usually do, which means that, as usual, I felt like puking at the end.

I've never worn a HR monitor before on this run, but, looking at my Garmin stats later, I found that most of run I hovered at 160bpm+, reaching a max of 175. My max HR is actually 175. I haven't seen a higher number in years. So, I really was working hard.

My Garmin page says that the "training effect" of my run was 5.0, which is "overreaching". What's that?? (I see that 4.0 is "highly improving", which sounds a lot better).

I guess my question is, would my run really have had a better training effect if I hadn't worked so hard? Why?

Some quick background: I'm training for Oli and sprint distance, 'A' races in September, and I'm a bad runner - I really need to get much quicker, and I don't have much time to do it in. I was tired for the rest of Saturday, but fine the following day.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 15 6:22

Post #2 of 19 (37691 views)

could it be possible your "max" isn't really your max?

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 15 6:25

Post #3 of 19 (37682 views)

To get a more accurate reading from Garmin you need many more data points. It is going off one reading which has you hitting your max and holding a high hr. Since it has no data to compare and its a max.......your training score will be a max reading.
A 5.0 is also what you should have for a 5k "Race", hence not something you want to hit on a daily basis to improve training.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 15 7:38

Post #4 of 19 (37483 views)

It may be that you ran that far too hard for a training run. If a 5K "training" run left you too tired to do much the next day, you went too hard, thus "overreaching." Instead of killing a 5K, either do a threshold run or else do max effort intervals. Both should leave you at a Garmin training effect of 4ish.

Of course the Garmin only knows what it has been told. So if the data it has concerning your heart rate isn't correct, then it will give you wrong info on the other end.

Again though, judging how you felt the next day, I think you likely were over reaching. You won't get much faster if you get injured.

Ian

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [Kenney] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 15 8:52

Post #5 of 19 (37340 views)

Kenney wrote:

A 5.0 is also what you should have for a 5k "Race", hence not something you want to hit on a daily basis to improve training.

Agreed.

I've hit a 5 on TE 7 times over the past year and half (after I read the OP I looked at Garmin Connect to see if I could see an obvious pattern). They all tended to happen when I ran hard (either close to, or an actual PR), and tended to be on longer runs, mostly 12 to 13 km, and one 1/2 marathon.

I'm guessing if you feel like puking, then over reaching might be a good descriptor. Having said that, I don't always find TE to be a great indicator of how hard I felt a work out was.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 20, 15 18:50

Post #6 of 19 (36969 views)

I use the Garmin 610 and also use the LTHR scale. I have to fudge the zones so they come out right. Damn near every run has me at 5.0. The thing is supposed to learn, but hasn't learned yet. I guess Garmin phones in the heart rate training thing by not offering different HR training methods, protocols, etc?

Glad to see it isn't just me! I gave up trying to figure it out.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 4:25

Post #7 of 19 (36438 views)

captain-tri wrote:

Kenney wrote:

A 5.0 is also what you should have for a 5k "Race", hence not something you want to hit on a daily basis to improve training.

Agreed.

I've hit a 5 on TE 7 times over the past year and half (after I read the OP I looked at Garmin Connect to see if I could see an obvious pattern). They all tended to happen when I ran hard (either close to, or an actual PR), and tended to be on longer runs, mostly 12 to 13 km, and one 1/2 marathon.

I'm guessing if you feel like puking, then over reaching might be a good descriptor. Having said that, I don't always find TE to be a great indicator of how hard I felt a work out was.

After a few months now, do you still feel the same about Garmin's Training Effect?

The reason I'm asking is that it's basically telling me I'm not running hard enough on my harder runs and I've suspected that for a while now.

jaretj

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 8:51

Post #8 of 19 (36061 views)

Yeah, I still feel the same. Here are some recent examples for runs I've done and training effects:

* I hit a 5.0 a couple weeks ago when I PR'd on a 1/2 marathon. I was pushing myself (harder than I probably ought to have been), and wasn't surprised to see a 5.0 when I checked just now.

* 1 hour tempo run yesterday that garnered a 4.3.

* Out of curiosity I checked the run from Ironman Canada this year (poor run for me, someone hadn't done enough long runs leading up to the event), the training effect was 3.6.

* Seattle Marathon last year *(1st Marathon ever for me) TE was 4.0

When you say it says you're not running hard enough what do you mean? On a tempo run I like see a 4.0 - which translates to "highly improving" according to Garmin Connect.

As I said previously, I only tend to see 5.0 on races where I run well and push myself.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [cloy26] [ In reply to ]

philipshambrook

Oct 8, 15 15:41

Post #9 of 19 (35765 views)

While the device may 'learn' from your training, you still need to put in your heart rate data - max and resting HR, and your training zones. If you work of the standard ones you are likely to see strange things.

Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 16:45

Post #10 of 19 (35646 views)

I've hit a 5 on TE 7 times over the past year and half (after I read the OP I looked at Garmin Connect to see if I could see an obvious pattern). They all tended to happen when I ran hard (either close to, or an actual PR), and tended to be on longer runs, mostly 12 to 13 km, and one 1/2 marathon.

�Bloom wherever you are planted"

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

FindinFreestyle

Oct 8, 15 16:46

Post #11 of 19 (35645 views)

Sounds like some buncha bullshit to me.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 17:00

Post #12 of 19 (35615 views)

I've started looking at HR again in the last few months since I got my Garmin 920. I've been l running to pace for the last several years and while I've done well, I'm looking to add another indicator of intensity.

According to GC, my harder runs could be a little more stressful than they had been. I'm just looking for experiences people have with Garmin's TE and was curious if they have changed their training because of it.

jaretj

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [K-DUB] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 17:06

Post #13 of 19 (35605 views)

K-DUB wrote:

I've hit a 5 on TE 7 times over the past year and half (after I read the OP I looked at Garmin Connect to see if I could see an obvious pattern). They all tended to happen when I ran hard (either close to, or an actual PR), and tended to be on longer runs, mostly 12 to 13 km, and one 1/2 marathon.

Hey, I have one of those amps too. No-ones allowed to look at it though. Sometimes you just need one more....

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 8, 15 18:17

Post #14 of 19 (35514 views)

Fuck Garmin.

ymmv

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 15 3:33

Post #15 of 19 (35295 views)

Yeah well, that was kind of my approach.

After the original TE of 5.0 that I wrote about a few months ago - I'm the OP - I didn't train with HR again. I had a big race coming up in Sept (AG worlds), and I was a very slow runner, and I figured I had to run fast in training to race fast, and if that meant regularly hitting max HR, so be it. As Mr Stover said, f*** Garmin.

Did it work? I don't know. I'm still a slow runner. I am getting faster. But no, I didn't see a big improvement during one summer from my high intensity training.

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 15 4:21

Post #16 of 19 (35250 views)

Shocking

Ian

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [alexxm21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 15 6:07

Post #17 of 19 (35183 views)

The reason I said that bc there is no one workout, no two workouts, not even 3 workouts you can do that will cause over reaching.

It's a combo of workouts over a period of time that cause over reaching. Now you can be on the cliff and do 2 or 3 really intense and/or long workouts that may nudge you over, but it's not the fault of those workouts. It's the fault of everything that came before it. Those were the straws breaking the camel's back.

IDK if the garmin software can take a broad look at the last number of weeks/months and say you're over reaching or not. But I doubt it.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Oct 9, 15 6:26

Post #18 of 19 (35148 views)

It appears to me that it's looking at HR and duration only.

My interpretation: It grades the workouts on it's scale and the athlete/coach decides how many of each kind of workout is right for that period of training.

I don't see it being much different than rTSS grading except that it's using HR instead of pace. Using one or the other right/wrong is dependent on the coaching philosophy.

jaretj

Re: Garmin says I'm "overreaching" - what's that? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Oct 13, 15 8:09

Post #19 of 19 (34886 views)

I would frequently get '5's' until I wore mine a while and it started over when I got a replacement watch. After a few weeks the TE score seems about right most of the time. During most races I get a 5.

During a recent relay race where I did two ~ one hour time trials two hours apart I got a 5 for the first one and a 4.3 (I think) for the second. I assume I was too tired to push myself to a 5 for the second one. I also got 'Poor' on my recovery check for the second one, felt about right ;-)

Edit - I think it somehow factors in HR variability also.

Last edited by: Anachronism: Oct 13, 15 8:10

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