races should not run out of water/ice. ever. period.
but hey, at least they had medals for you, unlike florida. ha ha
but hey, at least they had medals for you, unlike florida. ha ha
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Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TX_TRIron]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [ahhchon]
[ In reply to ]
I have to defend the RD on running out of water - I've done some hot races (not this past CDA) and I see racers and aid station staff wasting water all the time. When the weather conditions get like this, an RD may double or triple the water stocking - but there is no way to stock enough water for people to take baths and throw away water.
One scene I remember clearly from the Chicago Marathon in 08 that was a meltdown was a (guy) aid station volunteer dumping a 2 gallon jug of water over a very pretty girl. As a scene for an MTV video, it would have been great - but i remember thinking there were 10's of thousands of people behind me and no way the water could hold out. Sure enough, it didn't and the race was stopped for almost 1/2 the racers who hadn't reached the cutoff.
As racers, I think we have a duty to take only our share, and not waste resources our fellow racers will need.
.
" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
One scene I remember clearly from the Chicago Marathon in 08 that was a meltdown was a (guy) aid station volunteer dumping a 2 gallon jug of water over a very pretty girl. As a scene for an MTV video, it would have been great - but i remember thinking there were 10's of thousands of people behind me and no way the water could hold out. Sure enough, it didn't and the race was stopped for almost 1/2 the racers who hadn't reached the cutoff.
As racers, I think we have a duty to take only our share, and not waste resources our fellow racers will need.
.
" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TriDevilDog]
[ In reply to ]
IM France water came from hoses connected to mains supply. That seemed like a good idea
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [lutzman]
[ In reply to ]
lutzman wrote:
Hey, no argument on personal responsibility. Running out of water on the bike course is total BS. Ditto running out of ice on the run. It's not like anyone was surprised by the heat. WTC just basically went cheapo and tried to save money on ice and water at the expense of athletes on a very difficult day. You can beat up the OP all you want...his decisions hurt only him. WTC's decisions potentially hurt every athlete on the course.
So at what point is there "enough?" How do they judge how much to get? Do you ask that they send out a survey and ask competitors "approximately how many bottles of water do you think you'll take in the increased heat?" or "how many times do you think you'll apply ice?"
I agree that they should be prepared, but at a certain point, human behavior is unpredictable. They didn't run out of water on the bike course. OP states that they didn't have water at one aid station. Did the OP notice the aid station after that? Or the van that was mentioned a bit above? Were the volunteers just reloading their water and didn't have one for his blazing fast bike? We don't know. He experienced something that has not been well confirmed as being present on the whole course. He then cites this as being extremely unprepared. There is no evidence for that, and absolutely no evidence for your claim of WTC going "cheapo."
IM is all about personal responsibility. OP made a number of decisions (no wet suit, rented road bike v. tri bike) that made his race harder than it needed to be. He also made decisions to put himself in a potentially hazardous health situation. He then cites his lack of decision-making prowess as a reason to call out WTC.
OP, it tells you something that 22% of the field DNFd (according to your numbers). They were the smart racers. Sorry you didn't make decisions to support a smart race.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [Andrewmc]
[ In reply to ]
That's actually a really good idea (if possible by RD). Not sure how that would go over with the Water Dept.
I also agree that there should have been more water or some type of 'multiplier' for water needs when temperatures exceed a certain point since people will use the bottles for things other than their originally intended purposes.
I also agree that there should have been more water or some type of 'multiplier' for water needs when temperatures exceed a certain point since people will use the bottles for things other than their originally intended purposes.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TX_TRIron]
[ In reply to ]
I did CdA in '03. The temps hit high 90's on the bike course, so blazing hot but not like this year.
I had what is still my best swim ever then a perfect first lap of the bike, then I overcooked the bike as I didn't realize how hot it had gotten until a long climb on the second lap put me over the edge. Something like an hour and a half difference in lap times between first lap and second.
I did the first 2 mile out and back on the run then took a right turn into the med tent. So I have some perspective on a race going to hell in the heat.
I have also ran the last mile of a race that went to hell and then paid a big price after. And I've also gone to the food tent right after and thought how horrible the food looked to be soon followed by figuring out I was fucked.
"They took my blood pressure and it was 82 (I think...I was pretty F*d up at the time). They wanted to give me an IV but I was too nauseaus and opted for water/gatorade."
I don't understand this statement. White Lake in '03 - yep - just 8 weeks earlier - I had a BP of 60/40. Got an IV in each arm. You'll take in fluids much more efficiently with an IV, particularly if you are nauseous.
"I took absolutely every precaution possible."
Except stopping when you were already beyond fucked up.
"TO WTC/ Organizers of Ironman CDA: You knew better. This was a disaster in the making. "
As did everyone else. The dangers weren't hidden and many managed the race quite well. You just had to be smarter (than you or I were on our respective race days).
"Why not offer people ~50% off next years race if they chose to opt out last minute?"
Because the race went on. And why should they bear the cost of people deciding they wanted to wait for better conditions.
"Why not shorten the bike/run when ambulances started picking people off the course in droves??"
Because if people managed the race correctly it was doable. And you were able to do it too.
"Why aren't EMT's in the Medical Tent???"
If this was actually the case then it would be a serious issue. But the med tent is usually staffed by doctors and nurses to start with. Not just volunteers off the street like transition and aid stations.
"Why did you let someone with symtoms of a concussion leave on their own & not offer to contact their emergency contact???? "
It sounds like you had symptoms of heat exhaustion. What other symptoms did you have that looked like a concussion. Low BP and nausea are symptoms of dehydration and heat exhaustion.
"You let a bunch of 'Type A' people (your future/existing clients) try to complete a course in conditions that probably half of them have never even been exposed to let alone trained in?? "
If you used this logic no ironman race would ever go off. It is on the racer to know whether they are prepared for. The RD has to make sure they have the supplies on hand for the racers, which WTC did for the most part except for any issues that may have come up on the bike. But it is not on the RD to decide if you are ready. A couple thousand people spent a lot of time training and thousands of dollars to train and travel for this race. The RD owes it to them to put on the race they promised.
"Please reconsider the conditions you allow us to race in or provide a reasonable opt-out solution; we've all got families we want to go home to & future races to run. "
This is all on you. You knew the forecast. You knew how you felt. You kept going. There was an opt-out solution every step of the way. You didn't take them.
I've been there. I raced in heat that my body can't handle. I've gone to the med tent. I've had an IV in both arms, packed in ice with an oxygen mask (thanks SetUp Events) while the doctors argued amongst themselves whether I had to go to the hospital. I've ran the last mile of the race to collapse 20 minutes later and gotten back to the hotel to barf in the bathtub (man that messes up a nice warm bath).
I did all those things. No RD made me do it. The RD's put on the race I paid them to put on. Just like WTC did here for you.
I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
I had what is still my best swim ever then a perfect first lap of the bike, then I overcooked the bike as I didn't realize how hot it had gotten until a long climb on the second lap put me over the edge. Something like an hour and a half difference in lap times between first lap and second.
I did the first 2 mile out and back on the run then took a right turn into the med tent. So I have some perspective on a race going to hell in the heat.
I have also ran the last mile of a race that went to hell and then paid a big price after. And I've also gone to the food tent right after and thought how horrible the food looked to be soon followed by figuring out I was fucked.
"They took my blood pressure and it was 82 (I think...I was pretty F*d up at the time). They wanted to give me an IV but I was too nauseaus and opted for water/gatorade."
I don't understand this statement. White Lake in '03 - yep - just 8 weeks earlier - I had a BP of 60/40. Got an IV in each arm. You'll take in fluids much more efficiently with an IV, particularly if you are nauseous.
"I took absolutely every precaution possible."
Except stopping when you were already beyond fucked up.
"TO WTC/ Organizers of Ironman CDA: You knew better. This was a disaster in the making. "
As did everyone else. The dangers weren't hidden and many managed the race quite well. You just had to be smarter (than you or I were on our respective race days).
"Why not offer people ~50% off next years race if they chose to opt out last minute?"
Because the race went on. And why should they bear the cost of people deciding they wanted to wait for better conditions.
"Why not shorten the bike/run when ambulances started picking people off the course in droves??"
Because if people managed the race correctly it was doable. And you were able to do it too.
"Why aren't EMT's in the Medical Tent???"
If this was actually the case then it would be a serious issue. But the med tent is usually staffed by doctors and nurses to start with. Not just volunteers off the street like transition and aid stations.
"Why did you let someone with symtoms of a concussion leave on their own & not offer to contact their emergency contact???? "
It sounds like you had symptoms of heat exhaustion. What other symptoms did you have that looked like a concussion. Low BP and nausea are symptoms of dehydration and heat exhaustion.
"You let a bunch of 'Type A' people (your future/existing clients) try to complete a course in conditions that probably half of them have never even been exposed to let alone trained in?? "
If you used this logic no ironman race would ever go off. It is on the racer to know whether they are prepared for. The RD has to make sure they have the supplies on hand for the racers, which WTC did for the most part except for any issues that may have come up on the bike. But it is not on the RD to decide if you are ready. A couple thousand people spent a lot of time training and thousands of dollars to train and travel for this race. The RD owes it to them to put on the race they promised.
"Please reconsider the conditions you allow us to race in or provide a reasonable opt-out solution; we've all got families we want to go home to & future races to run. "
This is all on you. You knew the forecast. You knew how you felt. You kept going. There was an opt-out solution every step of the way. You didn't take them.
I've been there. I raced in heat that my body can't handle. I've gone to the med tent. I've had an IV in both arms, packed in ice with an oxygen mask (thanks SetUp Events) while the doctors argued amongst themselves whether I had to go to the hospital. I've ran the last mile of the race to collapse 20 minutes later and gotten back to the hotel to barf in the bathtub (man that messes up a nice warm bath).
I did all those things. No RD made me do it. The RD's put on the race I paid them to put on. Just like WTC did here for you.
I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [thepachman]
[ In reply to ]
thepachman wrote:
lutzman wrote:
Hey, no argument on personal responsibility. Running out of water on the bike course is total BS.
So at what point is there "enough?" How do they judge how much to get? Do you ask that they send out a survey and ask competitors "approximately how many bottles of water do you think you'll take in the increased heat?" or "how many times do you think you'll apply ice?"
I agree that they should be prepared, but at a certain point, human behavior is unpredictable.
Yeah, maybe. Every competitor paid full price for a fully supported race. So someone who is a back of the packer doesn't deserve the same race support as mid-packers even though they will be out in the heat significantly longer? 20% DNF'd and they still ran out of water and ice on a day where everyone knew the temps would hit triple digits. WTC may not have, in my words, "gone cheapo" by not supplying sufficient water, but you're woefully misinformed if you don't think they have a line item budget for water and ice. I have no idea what statistical tools they actually use to predict water/ice usage. But with hundreds of races on which to gather data & statistics (in hot weather and cold) it can't be that tough to predict based on previous races.
You ask "How much (water/ice) is enough?" The answer is pretty simple: One more than zero.
Here's what a friend of mine who volunteered wrote: heat was unbearable to the average Joe... In the shade on the grass you were sweating and we weren't even riding or running. IM CDA only had about 1650 registered - down from last year's 2150 and 374 of this year's were a DNF - I heard twice their normal number. the bike water stations ran out of water for those back-of-the-packers--Cyclists were crossing lanes to get water wherever available.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TX_TRIron]
[ In reply to ]
TX_TRIron wrote:
My next thought was "wow everybody here looks worse than I do....and that pizza looks disgusting."I completely disagree. THE PIZZAS WERE AWESOME
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [lutzman]
[ In reply to ]
You're not getting my point - that there was not a good way to predict how much water or ice to get, and they certainly had extra above what they originally planned. "One more than zero" is cute but unhelpful as that's what they had.
Planning does happen for these races. And contrary to your firm belief that WTC was worried about the cost of water and ice to the extent that they under ordered to cheap out, there's no logical reason why they would rather face a possible flurry of negative PR or worse from an athlete suffering massive health issues due to mismanaged water and ice.
The heat was bad. People took more water than was planned. There isn't a way to predict that. You can use all the statistics that you want from previous races, but when you put a bunch of people in conditions they might not have experience in, they won't do what you plan.
I am firm in my belief that if this were as big an issue as the OP is making it out to be, it would be all over the IMCDA Facebook, IM Twitter, etc. It's not. There as some others saying water was out. And others saying that it was replenished. Which leads me to believe that OP had a bad race and is looking for someone to heap the blame on.
Planning does happen for these races. And contrary to your firm belief that WTC was worried about the cost of water and ice to the extent that they under ordered to cheap out, there's no logical reason why they would rather face a possible flurry of negative PR or worse from an athlete suffering massive health issues due to mismanaged water and ice.
The heat was bad. People took more water than was planned. There isn't a way to predict that. You can use all the statistics that you want from previous races, but when you put a bunch of people in conditions they might not have experience in, they won't do what you plan.
I am firm in my belief that if this were as big an issue as the OP is making it out to be, it would be all over the IMCDA Facebook, IM Twitter, etc. It's not. There as some others saying water was out. And others saying that it was replenished. Which leads me to believe that OP had a bad race and is looking for someone to heap the blame on.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [thepachman]
[ In reply to ]
thepachman wrote:
You're not getting my point - that there was not a good way to predict how much water or ice to get, and they certainly had extra above what they originally planned. "One more than zero" is cute but unhelpful as that's what they had. And you're not getting my point. I deal in statistical projections and probabilities on a daily basis with far less reliable data than WTC should have on thingswhich for them that are pretty straightforward to monitor, measure, correlate and predict, i.e. water/ice distribution per aid station, hourly race day temperatures, etc. They should have very good records of how much water/ice (# cases/bags) are historically dropped at each aid station as well as the ending inventories. Link in the race day temperatures for every Ironman race and every race station and you've got a basic model to know exactly how temperatures have historically impacted consumption. Surely they have something far more sophisticated than this?
The 20% DNF makes the failure here significantly worse. Even with rudimentary tools for estimating water/ice usage they should have had EXCESS supplies since so many people unexpectedly dropped out. Presumably they have statistical models of DNF rates as well. Even if they do, the dropout rate had to be worse than expected meaning the aid stations should have been over-supplied.
"One more than zero" is more than cute. It's what they are obligated to have available for every participant. They clearly did not. The physical problems/judgement errors of the OP are irrelevant. At a basic level I expect that after paying a $600 entry fee WTC will make sure they have adequate supplies on hand for me. As much as you seem to want to rationalize their error, it clearly wasn't just the OP that had the issue as noted by my friend volunteering at the race.
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TX_TRIron]
[ In reply to ]
You did not have a seizure. You had vasovagal syncope, fell, twitched briefly (which is common after fainting and does look like a seizure - but it isn't). You hit your head yet did not have a concussion.
I heard you fall - turned and saw you on the ground. You looked like you were seizing. I got up and ran over. I was at your side within 20 seconds. You were already coming to which was good as if you had been seizing from heat stroke, a lethal arrhythmia, or hyponatremia, you'd likely die. First 2 almost certainly fatal. I couldn't feel your radial pulse initially but could within about 30 seconds. It was slow and weak consistent with vasovagal syncope. You initially were disoriented (didn't know you were in CDA) but that quickly cleared. EMT type people were there (I assume EMT as they were concerned with your head and neck). They got a wheelchair and brought you to the medical tent. All you needed was some time and fluids (oral as good as IV if you can keep them down).
I was a fellow racer - not associated with the medical tent or anything.
Dave
I heard you fall - turned and saw you on the ground. You looked like you were seizing. I got up and ran over. I was at your side within 20 seconds. You were already coming to which was good as if you had been seizing from heat stroke, a lethal arrhythmia, or hyponatremia, you'd likely die. First 2 almost certainly fatal. I couldn't feel your radial pulse initially but could within about 30 seconds. It was slow and weak consistent with vasovagal syncope. You initially were disoriented (didn't know you were in CDA) but that quickly cleared. EMT type people were there (I assume EMT as they were concerned with your head and neck). They got a wheelchair and brought you to the medical tent. All you needed was some time and fluids (oral as good as IV if you can keep them down).
I was a fellow racer - not associated with the medical tent or anything.
Dave
Re: Ironman CDA 2015 - Worst case scenario_RR/ WTC call-out [TX_TRIron]
[ In reply to ]
I think what you meant to day was......I came to this race un prepared with no wet suit and a bike I have never ridden, then knowing the conditions I made the concious decision to continue. I also chose to skip the medical tent and paid the price for that before being saved by the VOLUNTEER medical staff, and I would like to say THANK YOU to them........
Dude, the WTC didn't force you to do anything. Some people had PRS that day. You had a shitty day based on your own decisions. Don't blame others.
Dude, the WTC didn't force you to do anything. Some people had PRS that day. You had a shitty day based on your own decisions. Don't blame others.