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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
so, you look over in that specialized venge thread, these guys are masters at process-driven transactions. you walk into a retail store selling specialized, you enter a process. you aren't shown the saddles on the slat wall. you get your ass measured, then you're shown the output of a process: the saddle perfect for you. how important is that for online? it's doubly important.

I like what Specialized does from an engineering and marketing standpoint, but it's difficult to say their process works when in SoCal it appears most of the concept stores are failing. Surf City, Cynergy (a few times), B&L, and others all failed. A large SoCal chain is rumored to be shuttering one of it's locations due to low revenues. Is this market over-saturation or is the process not what the consumer actually wants from a bike shop? We send a lot of clients to these shops to purchase products (over $330K worth last year), and we receive a lot of negative feedback from their experiences. Many liken the concept stores to walking into a car dealership. Perhaps I only have a view from the pointy end of the market, or don't see what's going on in the rest of the country, but I'm not so sure the process is all that great.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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so how did you go about, or why did you think you were qualified to make bikes? what did you do pre QR

what did gerard and the cervelo guy's do pre cervelo?

there is a series of articles here...........get a history of TT / Tri in Roleur, if they can knock out 3000 words about 30 Shimano chains and a Hope Chain Ring made at the last minute, I'm pretty certain the MAMIL's might like to know a little history behind the Shiv's they're sat on..........
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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"in SoCal it appears most of the concept stores are failing. Surf City, Cynergy (a few times), B&L, and others all failed."

i don't think it's the brand or the specialized approach to transacting sales. in my opinion, if you just look at the concept stores that trek and specialized has, you see a difference. so, in san diego, look at trek superstores, owned by mike olson, formerly right hand man to alan goldsmith (supergo). mike was brought along by trek, and vice versa, great partnership, and i doubt mike would have much if anything bad to say about trek.

same area, specialized concept stores, the owners of those stores have a very different opinion of their flagship brand. in my opinion this is not an isolated case and specialized has just a systemic problem when it comes to how it manages its partnerships with concept store owners. i don't know what it is. i'm not close enough to it. i just see it, as an observer, and note what i see.

but specialized does two other things VERY well. one, it makes great product. two, it establishes pathways to the sale. body geometry is a great conceptual idea. i have real problems with its execution in certain areas, which i would be happy to describe were anyone at specialized interested in knowing, but the idea is fantastic, it's industry changing, and the industry has changed. for example, now fizik, selle italia and others have their own saddle fit systems. why? because specialized forced it on them. i also have problems with those systems, but the point is they're systems. they're pathways to the sale.

consumers think they want choice, but they don't. they don't want the choice of 40 saddles on a slatwall. they want to be TOLD which saddle works best for them, and then they want the freedom or choice to select either the red or the black one. specialized has leveraged that paradigm to a degree no other bike company has. that's why trek has precision fit. everybody now knows there has to be a pathway to the sale, that prescribes the solution.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, and is perhaps your view is even strengthened by the fact that the guy who managed Alan's top producing store, and was a big favorite of Alan's, was the original owner of Surf City, and yet he couldn't make a go of it. But, unless I'm mistaken (very possible), Alan is the one who put the concept store plan together for Specialized in the first place.

The products Specialized produces are fantastic, which is why we recommend them on a daily basis. Every road and mtb fit begins (and usually ends) with a Specialized saddle. More often than not, we recommend their shoes because they work so well for the majority of our clientele. Their $30 insoles are one of the best fit deals in all of cycling. But, on the pointy end, I'm not so sure consumers want to be told what they want. We see just the opposite; most of our clients know far more about the product than the sales people do before walking through the shop door, and they don't like be re-directed to something they know they don't need.

I guess we're a bit off-track, but I appreciate very much your views on this subject as it's a topic that's long over-due. In regards to the history of tri fit, I know you've written on it in the past, but I think you should re-post the story of how you and Steve Hed took notice of how triathletes were setting up their bikes and came up with the geometry for your QR bikes. I'm probably butchering that story as it's been 10 years since I've heard it, but I do think many people hear would like to read it. And, without preaching, I honestly believe every F.I.S.T. seminar should start with that story. That's how you began my training 10 years ago, and it immediately grabbed my attention. I apologize if I over-step.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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"why did you think you were qualified to make bikes?"

i didn't. i wasn't. that's part of what qualified me to make the bikes i made. had i been qualified i'd never have made them.

"
what did gerard and the cervelo guy's do pre cervelo?"

i don't know. but they were qualified.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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125mph wrote:
The scott plasma was on my consideration for a new bike next year but looking at the new specalized venge... one has to wonder what is coming up with the new shiv.. wow...

I'd have to guess something, the current Shiv is a bit long in the tooth and Specialized has had their tunnel for a while now. Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if they came out with something at Kona this year... or maybe even the 70.3 World Championship since there's a chance Gomez will race there.
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
but what about the plasma's height? is it too tall in these sizes? i don't think so. but you have to be willing to employ that flat stem, and i've got a finely-tuned ear for dog whistle politics when it comes to the posture bike makers strike toward triathletes. almost every one of them has a varsity set up for pro cyclists and a junior high school set up for triathletes. this goes back to the 1980s. same thinking, different technology, different generation. if we still can't stamp out racism 150 years after slavery has been abolished, we're not going to get rid of triathlism in 20 or 30 years.

it's not that we all need those flat stems. but some of us do. and, the roadies don't need the flat stems any more than we do. they want them, because they suspect pedestaling the armrests on a low bike is faster. so we need to at least have the flat stems available at the retail stores.

sorry for the circular route, but the plasma is low and long enough, just you *might* need the flat stem, and if that's the case you've got to ditch the hydration system. there's nothing wrong with that. that just puts you on a par with the rest of the world's tri bikes. the problem with scott is the lack of a system demonstrating how these bikes will look and work underneath YOUR fit coordinates. but i'll eat my hat if they don't have one up and running in a month. this is where i think ketchum says enough is enough and makes sure it gets done.

That's another beef I have with the Plasma. I don't want to buy a superbike from a manufacturer who tells me: "Your fit coordinates require the flat stem, so sorry - you're getting the bike with a handicap." Because that's what Scott did, in saying that the Plasma 5 + PD Hydration is faster than the naked flat stem. For a $6000 frameset I want all the bells and whistles the bike was optimized for, or were optimized for the bike.

It's as if Trek said "sorry, size XS bikes can't take the Draft Box and top-tube bosses". Or matching it's Long-Low stem only to the UCI-legal fork.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Fleck wrote:
i'm going to give you just my opinion, and it's not based on any fact. i think ketchum's budget is mighty thin for tri. i don't think scott has been selling well in tri in the U.S. for awhile, and i think the tri budget given scott (if i'm right) reflects that. when i think about the athletes they sponsor, i think of kienle, clavel, luxford, mckenzie, swallow, a few others, and i doubt there's very much of that, if any, that comes out of the ketchum budget.

Dan,

How valuable is it to have those Pro's sponsored and riding the bike? What is the ROI on that? The bike "won" Kona last year - years ago that was worth something. These days the marketing world is VERY different. What sort of impact does it have now? After I read your article - I'm thinking it does not have the impact that it did years ago.


FWIW, having something under Kienle is of value at the moment. The guy is fast but it's also pretty well known that he is very careful with how he sets up every aspect of his bike. He might be THE most squared-away pro out there. So when I saw the Plasma Premium under him I said "I'm buying that bike" but the experience I had at my local Scott shop was so awful that there's no chance I'll buy one now.

You're not exaggerating when you say this. I believe they used quite a bit of his input during the development of the Plasma 5.
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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So when I saw the Plasma Premium under him I said "I'm buying that bike" but the experience I had at my local Scott shop was so awful that there's no chance I'll buy one now.

So for you, the marketing worked, and where this broke down was at the dealer level. And so the tricky balance of all this exposed!

Points out how, a number of key things all need to come together to make this work, and be sustainable!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Jun 26, 15 14:51
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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Also, why do manufactures seem to hate frameset sales so much?

I'd like to know, too!

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Re: Scott Plasma article discussion [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just saw the brochure; The 2016 Plasma 5 will come with Dura Ace Di2. Maybe they will also fix the their stack and reach numbers :-)

Mike
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