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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
This is a North American thing. The three Euro IMs that I've done, none had special needs bike bags. The Europeans seem to do just fine without a bike special needs bag.

Don't get me wrong. If they offer it, definitely use it ... even if it's just used to contain spare tubes, back up nutrition, and etc, but one can perform just fine without a special needs bag or stopping for one.

Simple Stevie wrote:
Stopping at BSN: 1 minute

F'ing up nutrition and walking during marathon: 1 hour

Not that I'm racing the same race, but generally speaking, if you are in my age group, I strongly urge you to skip BSN.


I KQ'd and do not use a special needs bag for the following reasons.
1. Adapt to nutrition on the course. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I plan better and adapt to it, and maybe it's because I travel to races where the nutrition varies more than it does on NA courses, but using what is on course and knowing it works for you is very helpful. In addition, if you KQ, you are at the front, and certainly won't have any issues with aid stations running out or being overcrowded. (well, overcrowded perhaps on a looped courses.) Finally, having raced Mont Tremblant at the 70.3 WCs last year, it was damn cold on the course! I guess it should be warmer for the IMMT, but when it's cold like that, my fluid needs are less. So that is another important aspect of nutrition to plan for....if you are not drinking as much calorie-intense fluids, you need to have a backup in your back pockets to eat as you go. I train in conditions regularly over 35 degrees, and when it is under 25, I just don't sweat much and I get a sloshy feeling in my stomach pretty quickly if I continue to drink at the rate I would for warmer temps. Make sure you think this through. But still, carrying bars on the bike is quite easy and still no need for special needs in my opinion.

2. Spare CO2 etc? I guess if you really need a double layer of insurance this can make sense. But I'm assuming you are carrying repair kit on the bike. For me it's not worth the bother of collecting it after. If I needed to use two flat kits, I'm guessing my shot at KQ would be out the window....so just enjoy the race after getting help with the second flat.

3. For those who are nutrition specific, if you use powder, just pick up water on the course. It has to be quicker then potentially waiting for a special needs bag. People are posting it only takes 1 minute. I got my KQ slot by finishing 2 minutes in front of the third place guy who did not get a ticket to Kona. This is a huge amount of time given the potential margin of success/failure on KQ. Hilarious to spend so much money on aero this and that to hand back all the marginal gains waiting for a bag of stuff that you could have carried.

4. On course nutrition is a part of the race. Other than that, however, I do not want to put the fate of my race in the hands of anyone else. Any number of things could happen to delay getting the bag, fishing out what you want, and carrying on again. There is also the psychological element...if you don't get the bag you were counting on, it will affect your mind, even if you can adapt to live off the course. Reduce what you need. Train for being sustainable on that bare minimum and put your KQ destiny in your own hands. I had a long talk with the 3rd and 4th place finishers who missed Kona by 2 minutes and 3 minutes respectively. Not a happy place as they listed all the ways they lost time for no advantage.

5. Special needs is just that...special. Something out of the ordinary happened on the race. One time I put an encouraging note from my family in the bag. I knew what it said, but I still picked it up (on the run, loose far less time in my opinion!) just to have that little pep talk at a low point in my race. Worked far better than any nutrition would have!

Good luck with IMMT and figuring out what you need to make it happen! :)
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I had a Red Bull with a salt tablet in it on the bike SN bag. On the run I had another one. I would definitely pack something in there that you consider emergency fuel if you just aren't feeling it at that point. Even if you are feeling it, the boost is worth it. Decorate your bag with weird colored duct tape so it stands out too.

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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
zoom wrote:
This is a North American thing. The three Euro IMs that I've done, none had special needs bike bags. The Europeans seem to do just fine without a bike special needs bag.

Don't get me wrong. If they offer it, definitely use it ... even if it's just used to contain spare tubes, back up nutrition, and etc, but one can perform just fine without a special needs bag or stopping for one.

Simple Stevie wrote:
Stopping at BSN: 1 minute

F'ing up nutrition and walking during marathon: 1 hour

Not that I'm racing the same race, but generally speaking, if you are in my age group, I strongly urge you to skip BSN.



I KQ'd and do not use a special needs bag for the following reasons.
1. Adapt to nutrition on the course. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I plan better and adapt to it, and maybe it's because I travel to races where the nutrition varies more than it does on NA courses, but using what is on course and knowing it works for you is very helpful. In addition, if you KQ, you are at the front, and certainly won't have any issues with aid stations running out or being overcrowded. (well, overcrowded perhaps on a looped courses.) Finally, having raced Mont Tremblant at the 70.3 WCs last year, it was damn cold on the course! I guess it should be warmer for the IMMT, but when it's cold like that, my fluid needs are less. So that is another important aspect of nutrition to plan for....if you are not drinking as much calorie-intense fluids, you need to have a backup in your back pockets to eat as you go. I train in conditions regularly over 35 degrees, and when it is under 25, I just don't sweat much and I get a sloshy feeling in my stomach pretty quickly if I continue to drink at the rate I would for warmer temps. Make sure you think this through. But still, carrying bars on the bike is quite easy and still no need for special needs in my opinion.

2. Spare CO2 etc? I guess if you really need a double layer of insurance this can make sense. But I'm assuming you are carrying repair kit on the bike. For me it's not worth the bother of collecting it after. If I needed to use two flat kits, I'm guessing my shot at KQ would be out the window....so just enjoy the race after getting help with the second flat.

3. For those who are nutrition specific, if you use powder, just pick up water on the course. It has to be quicker then potentially waiting for a special needs bag. People are posting it only takes 1 minute. I got my KQ slot by finishing 2 minutes in front of the third place guy who did not get a ticket to Kona. This is a huge amount of time given the potential margin of success/failure on KQ. Hilarious to spend so much money on aero this and that to hand back all the marginal gains waiting for a bag of stuff that you could have carried.

4. On course nutrition is a part of the race. Other than that, however, I do not want to put the fate of my race in the hands of anyone else. Any number of things could happen to delay getting the bag, fishing out what you want, and carrying on again. There is also the psychological element...if you don't get the bag you were counting on, it will affect your mind, even if you can adapt to live off the course. Reduce what you need. Train for being sustainable on that bare minimum and put your KQ destiny in your own hands. I had a long talk with the 3rd and 4th place finishers who missed Kona by 2 minutes and 3 minutes respectively. Not a happy place as they listed all the ways they lost time for no advantage.

5. Special needs is just that...special. Something out of the ordinary happened on the race. One time I put an encouraging note from my family in the bag. I knew what it said, but I still picked it up (on the run, loose far less time in my opinion!) just to have that little pep talk at a low point in my race. Worked far better than any nutrition would have!

Good luck with IMMT and figuring out what you need to make it happen! :)

Thanks for the detailed answer! I missed out on a KQ by 7 seconds at IMMT in 2013, so I'm looking for ways to save any time possible. I've gone to a PI Octane suit this year and a new aero helmet. I'm just looking for another way to save a bit more time, but hope it won't come down to seconds this time.

IMMT is quite hilly (around 6500 ft of climbing), but is mostly rolling. I'd rather not drag around a 2lb water bottle on the first lap. I'm in the process of working with a nutritionist to dial in my race-day nutrition. I guess I could go the Gatorade route, as that what will be on course, then not worry about special needs.

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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Holy...I feel you on missing Kona by so little. That was a tough day.

Read parts of your blog too...and with your fitness, I think the special needs is even less needed. Perhaps as others have said, as a back-up in case things go awry...but with your experience, coaching and a nutritionist to help, my goal would be to work a fuel plan for the entire race that does not need a special needs bag should things go right. So for me, that means I can carry Plan A and Plan B. (which doesn't amount to much that I need actually.) If things fall apart and I need Plan C, the BSN is there. For me, it is part of my mental preparation....the train leaves the station at the swim start and it is a non-stop machine until the end of the run. Good luck and hope I see you Kona!!
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [tamiii] [ In reply to ]
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tamiii wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
This is basically what I did for IMFL 2014 though with 750cal in each bottle.


How big is your bottle? How can you load 750cal into it?
Pretty easy really. For my last race I put 900 Cal into a small bottle, and it wasn't even full. 150g of rice syrup, 75 of agave syrup, 75 of honey, some lemon juice, a pinch of salt and water to desired consistency.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Nate, both times that I've qualified the guy that was less than 1min back did not go. In my opinion, when you're walking the fine line of making it and not, you need to pull out all of the stops. You need to train with a nutrition strategy to not have to stop at special needs. Whether you race with course supplied nutrition or lug all of your own stuff along with you, that's for you to decide but at this point any time you stop moving forward (transition, special needs, aid stations, potty stops, etc), I'd personally be really concerned about the guy right behind you, who wants THE spot just as bad as you do and has optimized his strategy to get the finish line without stopping at BSN.

Best of luck! Where/when are you racing again!!??
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I've never used special needs. I start with what I prefer and then live off the course, and the main reason for that is I got some good advice a long time ago that one thing you need to make sure of is to have a backup plan. What happens if you lose a bottle of nutrition--from a pothole or a cap that breaks or drop it or whatever. It would be a shame to have a lost bottle ruin your entire day, but if you can use what's on the course, all you need to do is make it to the next aid station.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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dmorris wrote:
I've never used special needs. I start with what I prefer and then live off the course, and the main reason for that is I got some good advice a long time ago that one thing you need to make sure of is to have a backup plan. What happens if you lose a bottle of nutrition--from a pothole or a cap that breaks or drop it or whatever. It would be a shame to have a lost bottle ruin your entire day, but if you can use what's on the course, all you need to do is make it to the next aid station.

Absolutely agree with this. I even had to learn how to suck up Centuple gels...the absolute worst thing I've ever ingested; did not go well the first training run...gagging is not conducive to good form! But got used to it and that meant I only needed to carry a few of my preferred gels that fit comfortably in my back pocket.

Another good option I think for a back up on nutrition is salt stick tablets or an equivalent. Many times the sports drinks are watered down, so you may not be getting the electrolytes you trained for...tablets are an easy insurance plan that don't require BSN.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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dmorris wrote:
I've never used special needs. I start with what I prefer and then live off the course, and the main reason for that is I got some good advice a long time ago that one thing you need to make sure of is to have a backup plan. What happens if you lose a bottle of nutrition--from a pothole or a cap that breaks or drop it or whatever. It would be a shame to have a lost bottle ruin your entire day, but if you can use what's on the course, all you need to do is make it to the next aid station.

+1

I'm not planning on KQ at all but simply thinking of relying on external resources for nutrition stresses me. On a new course, I'm not sure exactly where the special needs will be, etc. Therefore I try to rely mostly on what I bring on the bike and my pockets. For my first IM Im planning only on getting 1 or 2 bottles on the bike from the aid stations. Gels/Bars will be with me (+ 4 bottles on the bike).
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [tamiii] [ In reply to ]
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for those not using special needs how many bottles are you carrying and where? seems it might be faster to stop at special needs than take the aero penalty of having a bottle on the DT or ST.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [favata1213] [ In reply to ]
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2 behind the saddle, 1 between the aerobars and 1 on the frame

the one between aerobars is the one used to put water from the aid stations in it
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I will be trying to KQ at Maryland and don't plan on using it. Raced IMMT last yr (first IM) and if you properly plan seems like you should be able to carry all Cal on bike with you and pick up water on course. I have worried about loosing seconds to min should there be a crash there or they can't find you bag. That spot they had special needs bag pick up last yr was only on very slight uphill so if you don't stop you can carry some speed through that section to.
Now i have wondered if it worth while using special needs bag on the run? For me its harder to carry 700-800 cal with me on the run.

Nate you doing any local races this yr? Man i have read you race report form 2013 heartbreaking.

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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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i never use it. no need, not safe, not fast. i do however stick a bottle in there just in case i drop something. never had to use it.

2x700 cal bottle and just grab water
and a gel flask.

if you are riding 5 hours and don't eat the first 45 minutes you only need 1300-1600 cal. very easy to put that in bottles.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [Simple Stevie] [ In reply to ]
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To clarify a point:

If you can plan ahead and PRACTICE a nutrition strategy that assumes NOT hitting BSN, that's fine. You can train using on-course nutrition. You can mix concentrate bottles. If BSN is unnecessary, skip it.

That said, I would still put some back-up goodies in the BSN bag if necessary.

Again, this is based on the assumption that whatever plan you develop without relying on BSN, you PRACTICE several times.

Good luck.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Always. Premixed bottles in BSN bag. If you are good it takes ~30 seconds not a minute. Time can partially be made up at other aid stations. I wouldn't do it if I could just do course nutrition, but I can't and if you don't take care of nutrition on the bike your race is over. I also stop to use the porto if needed so YMMV. I might change my mind if I'm ever 7 seconds on the outside like you have been, but the gaps have always been minutes not seconds. In Kona it is a bit of a cluster with bags blowing around and athlete density, but even then it is worth it. The marathon is just so hot you have to be topped.

..
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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Always use it - 2 bottles on bike, 2 in BSN. I'm never sure if my stomach handles many bottles of the race nutrition - and never sure how it is mixed. (I usually grab 1 extra from an aid station + extra water if extremely hot.).
- It takes less than 30 seconds to get it. Cheep insurance to be sure I really will be able to run and grab a Kona-slot.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I put a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in special needs at Tahoe.
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Re: Special Needs on bike - KQers use it? [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
zoom wrote:
This is a North American thing. The three Euro IMs that I've done, none had special needs bike bags. The Europeans seem to do just fine without a bike special needs bag.

Don't get me wrong. If they offer it, definitely use it ... even if it's just used to contain spare tubes, back up nutrition, and etc, but one can perform just fine without a special needs bag or stopping for one.

Simple Stevie wrote:
Stopping at BSN: 1 minute

F'ing up nutrition and walking during marathon: 1 hour

Not that I'm racing the same race, but generally speaking, if you are in my age group, I strongly urge you to skip BSN.



I KQ'd and do not use a special needs bag for the following reasons.
1. Adapt to nutrition on the course. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I plan better and adapt to it, and maybe it's because I travel to races where the nutrition varies more than it does on NA courses, but using what is on course and knowing it works for you is very helpful. In addition, if you KQ, you are at the front, and certainly won't have any issues with aid stations running out or being overcrowded. (well, overcrowded perhaps on a looped courses.) Finally, having raced Mont Tremblant at the 70.3 WCs last year, it was damn cold on the course! I guess it should be warmer for the IMMT, but when it's cold like that, my fluid needs are less. So that is another important aspect of nutrition to plan for....if you are not drinking as much calorie-intense fluids, you need to have a backup in your back pockets to eat as you go. I train in conditions regularly over 35 degrees, and when it is under 25, I just don't sweat much and I get a sloshy feeling in my stomach pretty quickly if I continue to drink at the rate I would for warmer temps. Make sure you think this through. But still, carrying bars on the bike is quite easy and still no need for special needs in my opinion.

2. Spare CO2 etc? I guess if you really need a double layer of insurance this can make sense. But I'm assuming you are carrying repair kit on the bike. For me it's not worth the bother of collecting it after. If I needed to use two flat kits, I'm guessing my shot at KQ would be out the window....so just enjoy the race after getting help with the second flat.

3. For those who are nutrition specific, if you use powder, just pick up water on the course. It has to be quicker then potentially waiting for a special needs bag. People are posting it only takes 1 minute. I got my KQ slot by finishing 2 minutes in front of the third place guy who did not get a ticket to Kona. This is a huge amount of time given the potential margin of success/failure on KQ. Hilarious to spend so much money on aero this and that to hand back all the marginal gains waiting for a bag of stuff that you could have carried.

4. On course nutrition is a part of the race. Other than that, however, I do not want to put the fate of my race in the hands of anyone else. Any number of things could happen to delay getting the bag, fishing out what you want, and carrying on again. There is also the psychological element...if you don't get the bag you were counting on, it will affect your mind, even if you can adapt to live off the course. Reduce what you need. Train for being sustainable on that bare minimum and put your KQ destiny in your own hands. I had a long talk with the 3rd and 4th place finishers who missed Kona by 2 minutes and 3 minutes respectively. Not a happy place as they listed all the ways they lost time for no advantage.

5. Special needs is just that...special. Something out of the ordinary happened on the race. One time I put an encouraging note from my family in the bag. I knew what it said, but I still picked it up (on the run, loose far less time in my opinion!) just to have that little pep talk at a low point in my race. Worked far better than any nutrition would have!

Good luck with IMMT and figuring out what you need to make it happen! :)

Well stated. I don't use BSN. Live off the land or bring it with you.

TJ

Badig| Strava


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