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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [mile2424] [ In reply to ]
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12.5cm stem and a small frame to fit... yes it looks small for him.

Interesting to see Gomez and Murray on "old Venges", I suppose they don't want to deal with a new ride until they finish ITU season...noticing toe covers for most front riders too. Cold or aero?

Sr. Salitre
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [alex_emetique] [ In reply to ]
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Great gallery, merci!

Any comment from Luis on why a switch to VIAS before end of season? Apparently, it didn't go so well, despite staying FOP and posting the 3rd best run in 15:21

Also, I notice no PM for him, a rushed build maybe?

Sr. Salitre
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [FranR] [ In reply to ]
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He is using a stage powermeter. He needs to add it (rushed build).

For Gomez and Murray, both have the Vias. I think that with the weather condition and complexity of the brake, it was easier to play safe and use their old bike. Gomez seems to travel with 2 bikes. For Murray, I'm pretty sure that he did borrow it to someone.

For Luis performance, it wasn't about the bike. He was just too cold for him. Lost a lot of time to put his shoes quickly.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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Chris-
Sorry to dredge up an old thread. But are there any plans on making a 'Fit Stem' that might not necessitate cutting the steerer to play around with the fit of the front end of the bike? The bike, as designed, is a gorgeous piece of engineering, but the front end fit options are pretty hard to make and permanent. I've been involved in fitting one to an experienced rider and taking a spacer out took the shop owner and I (both pretty accomplished mechanics at multiple levels) 2 1/2 hours. (Caveats being that it was our first time, we triple checked our work and it would probably take 1/2 that amount of time to do it a second time). The documentation you provide is fantastic, but a stem that was designed to put spacers above it and not need the front brake housing cut to length to change the height of the stem would make dialing in a fit a lot less stressful. Even a clamshell design where there would be a minimum of re-cabling would be fantastic. Once the fit is dialed in you could cut the steerer and all the cables to the appropriate length and put the normal stem back on.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, no prob. I hear ya on the fitting challenges. Our recommendation is to not run the inner cables or flexible noodles in the stem during the fit process. That way the stem/bar assembly can be moved up and down without having to cut the steerer. Obviously the brakes won't be functional so this only works while fitting on a trainer. The housings inside the bar to the stop in the stem can be fully assembled, as well as the rear brake housing in the frame. I would suggest leaving the front brake housing long and cutting that along with the steerer once the fit is finished.

I know that's not as ideal as a more traditional setup where you can ride the bike outside in different positions, but for fitting on a trainer it should be just a couple of extra steps (cutting the front brake housing and running the inner cables after re-assembly).

Hope that helps,
Chris

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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Chris - not directly Venge ViAS related, but since I guess this might be able to grab your attention I'll give it a try - and it is still "5 minutes" related ;)

I'm looking at new shoes and are very interested in the new S-Works 6 shoes - my S-Works shoes from 2011 have served me very well. A lot of use will be in TTs so I am very interested in the aerodynamic performance, or more specifically the differences between the standard S-Works 6 and the Sub6 shoe. I know you market the Sub6 as your most aerodynamic shoe, but haven't been able to dig up much information in this regard about the normal S-Works 6 shoe.

For TTs I will used an impermeable shoe cover, so the sleeve on the Sub6 should not be a factor. What I'm interested in is whether the entire shape of the two models is the same, in which case I think the Boa dials will be the only aerodynamic difference, which I guess will have a really small (non-existant with impermeable shoe covers?) effect? The Boa dials will obvisouly be more practical in general use, but if we are looking at an aerodynamic difference between the two shoes of 1+ watt (@ 30 mph) I will likely go for the Sub6 - and perhaps keep using my old shoes whenever I don't feel like tying laces.

Thanks in advance for any reply.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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The SW6 and Sub-6 shoes are effectively the same shape so most of the gain is from minimizing exposure of the upper and from removing the BOAS. Note that we've found that there aren't many shoe covers that actually reduce drag (even though you may be smoothing the shape, you're effectively increasing frontal area by "tenting" material over buckles/boas, etc...).

Testing shoes is one of the most challenging things to do correctly in the tunnel (wide variety of pedaling and ankling styles that need to be held constant for comparisons). With the testing that we've done, the difference between the two is definitely on the order that you're asking about (a couple of watts at 50 km/h).

Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the answer, Chris, much appreciated.

I have tested several shoe covers and like you said, not all offer an improvement. I have found some that do, however, so I will naturally use those in TT's. It may of course have an effect that the shoes I have used when testing are the Giro Empires (which have laces like the Sub6), so you are not going to 'tent' things like buckles or Boas with those. On shoes like my old S-Works 2011 the Boas are pretty much on the front of the shoes so the 'tenting' (and the Boas themselves) shouldn't increase frontal, but I guess they will still make the leading edge a worse shape (with or without shoe cover), which could have an impact - perhaps especially at yaw...

So it sounds like Sub6 is the way to go if I want to save the last couple of watts - even with the right shoe covers on both Sub6 and the regular S-Works 6. Having shoes with both laces and Boas I really prefer the Boa closure for everyday training use, but I guess you sometime have to sacrifice a bit of practicality for aerodynamic gains :)
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [chrisyu] [ In reply to ]
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The test riding outside and for longer periods is the big problem we were having. I think we are in a good shape, but it is nerve wrecking to not at least get a couple 50 mile rides in before making the commitment to cutting the steerer tube.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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From 5 years ago, wind tunnel testing for a lace-up, buckled and lycra overshoe (on the buckled shoe) demonstrated that the fastest choice was the lace-up. The difference between the worst (overshoe) and best (lace-up) performing choice was ~ 5W.

Ref: Gibertini G, Grassi D, Macchi C, De Bortoli G 2010. Cycling shoe aerodynamics. Sports Engineering.

Just chant "frontal area, frontal area, ..." when it comes to optimisation choices which don't affect rider power.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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Very informative! Thanks!
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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cerebis wrote:
From 5 years ago, wind tunnel testing for a lace-up, buckled and lycra overshoe (on the buckled shoe) demonstrated that the fastest choice was the lace-up. The difference between the worst (overshoe) and best (lace-up) performing choice was ~ 5W.

Ref: Gibertini G, Grassi D, Macchi C, De Bortoli G 2010. Cycling shoe aerodynamics. Sports Engineering.

Just chant "frontal area, frontal area, ..." when it comes to optimisation choices which don't affect rider power.
I think I remember that study, though I remember it as if they found the differences to be even larger and remember the results as kind of strange when looking close, so kind of dismissed the whole thing. I also found it strange they didn't test airproof/PU-coated covers.

I also remember the buckle on the tested shoe to be kind of bulky and on the outside of the shoe, i.e. in more or less clean air. Boa closures more on the top/front of the shoe are not adding nearly as much if any frontal area and *may* dissappear aerodynamically with an airproof shoe cover. Of course, they are very unlikely to be faster than laces, but if just as fast I would prefer them from a practical point of view. That's what I wanted Chris's input on. But I know it's a very hard thing to test and that they might not have tested both shoes against each other with an airproof shoe cover on both.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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The authors were from Italy and though they make no specific mention of the brand and model, they supply a side profile image. The shoes were both Sidis, with buckled version an Ergo 2, while the lace-up appears to have the exact same sole, but slightly different upper (obviously, being laced).

Since at the time the Ergo 2 was in widespread use, I would think their choice was a good one. Also, I would say the buckle was no more obtrusive than any other.

As for the difference in watts, I was looking only at the increased requirement in translational power. The authors broke down the pedal action into rotational and translational components. Shoe weight plays much more of a roll in rotational and a lace-up tends to be lighter. Therefore, the total difference is a little more than 5W as the "buckled" and "buckled + overshoe" are penalised again for weight increase over the lace-up.

In another study from different authors, focused on bike position, they noted that one of the biggest factors for drag reduction in clothing (anywhere) is that it stays flat. Obviously you can try and make something that gussets a particularly draggy part of the body, but barring those sorts of tricks, not wrinkling was key. Pretty sure all the aero engineers on here would have already said as much.

So, why did I say that? Well, think of a shoe cover, whether it's simply lycra or some fancy vinyl coated bootie. It might not be too hard to design one that covers the shoe smoothly, but much harder to get the transition from shoe to lower leg smooth and wrinkle free, particularly when you consider the entire pedal stroke. Meanwhile, your skin does a great job of not wrinkling up -- given rider age (hah, I kill me) -- so just getting a clean fitting shoe that ends flush with the top of the foot would probably work best for the widest range of people.
Last edited by: cerebis: Nov 20, 15 17:18
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting info on the Specialized shoes. I assume from Chris's comments we're better off to use windproof socks than to put a shoe or toe cover on the shoe for winter riding.
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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cerebis wrote:
From 5 years ago, wind tunnel testing for a lace-up, buckled and lycra overshoe (on the buckled shoe) demonstrated that the fastest choice was the lace-up. The difference between the worst (overshoe) and best (lace-up) performing choice was ~ 5W.

Ref: Gibertini G, Grassi D, Macchi C, De Bortoli G 2010. Cycling shoe aerodynamics. Sports Engineering.

Just chant "frontal area, frontal area, ..." when it comes to optimisation choices which don't affect rider power.


It was that study that convinced me to switch from buckled shoes with covers to a pair of older Bont A-Threes for TTs



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Sagan with his new bling. Pretty cool to finally see a good picture of this in the sunlight...same paint as the WC Tarmac on the new Venge Vias....


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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [mile2424] [ In reply to ]
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anyone else notice the cable ports in Sagan's frame?
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Re: 2016 Specialized Venge? [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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tetonrider wrote:
gtingley wrote:


Oh and please don't forget about us SRM PowerControl users ;) .... ViAS SRM bar mount is a must-have.


i made one... :)



SRM has made one now LINK



My TT bike
BMC TM01
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