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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
lightheir wrote:
it's not about the aerobic training that's the swim limiter, it's the muscular endurance.


how do you know this?
only evidence cited by you so far could be explained as easily by technique or some combination of 'muscular endurance'

define muscular endurance

This is well known, I'm not making it up.

Muscular endurance is SPORT (swim in this case) specific training. As said, it's why a world class swimmer still needs to train running before they can even begin to tap into their monster aerobic ability, and vice versa, part of why runners with huge engines make lousy swimmers.

Of course, the whole technique aspect is another big bear of an issue that compounds why pure runners suck at swimming, but it's not just magic technique - even if those swimmers had perfect technique somehow right off the bat, they don't have the arm/shoulder/back muscle endurance to support it and thus that will be far more of a limiter than their aerobic reserve.
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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There are a couple of physiological reasons why you can be a powerful cyclist and a bad runner that are not related to your form.
How do you tease apart the degree to which swimming is 'upper body strength/endurance' vs form limited?
muscle biopsy? what are we talking about exactly?

Regarding cycling vs running, i think you're alluding to muscle type, i.e. lots of powerful cyclists have too many FT fibers to become good distance runners. They could prob run fast for 200 to 400 m but not 5000 m. These same cyclists, IF they possess similarly powerful upper bodies and have some degree of feel for the water, can become very powerful swimmers. You know the type, the swimmer/bikers like Starky who get passed on the run. At the other extreme, you have your biker/runner types who bike fast on ST muscles and then can run fast for long distances, but who can't swim as fast relative to their bike and run speeds. And then you have your more balanced tri guys like Frodo and Potts who can do all three sports quite fast. They prob have a tri-appropriate mix of FT and ST muscles.

I can't produce any muscle biopsy studies but rather the above are based on many yrs of observation plus a little reading on exer phys. The "teasing apart" of swim form vs power is based on observing numerous fitness swimmers over the yrs who have respectable strokes but yet who swim slowly. In large part, their slowness is due to their lack of any speed training whatsoever, and they could no doubt go faster if they worked at it. Also, one other observation from Sheila Taormina's book: back in the 1930s, Johnny Weismuller swam 57.0 for 100 lcm, or about 49.9 for 100 scy, WITH HIS HEAD OUT OF THE WATER, which is worse form than most tri guys!!! As Sheila T points out, he was able to swim that fast b/c he had a VERY powerful pull:)




"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I dont believe sports can be a measurement of fitness. moving and being in natures boundaries is what should be fit.. but we have been disconnected from nature with this non-sustainable man made system..

Running though as its the thing we have evolved to do.. but it can be damaging in the long run if your not aligned
Last edited by: SamYO: Apr 27, 15 6:54
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None [ In reply to ]
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In HS cross country, full of people that ran DI in college, we decided it was swimmers. Then us. Followed by soccer players. We'd occasionally have people from other sports wander onto the team, or other teams would decide to run with us for whatever reason(punishment, usually). The swimmers would always do well, never whined or got dropped, most were pretty good runners. Most soccer players would whine, but only some would get dropped, and a few did really well.

And U.S. Runners could go to any sports practice and do the conditioning just fine. We'd finish, and then go out and run some more(else our coach would get onto us about slacking off...). A number of us runners also played other sports and said that CC was harder.

But the swimming? No, we'd drown. We absolutely could not do their workouts. Thus, they were the most fit.
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Re: None [JSully] [ In reply to ]
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Among the swimmers I hung out with, it was the wrestlers who we looked up to. A very tough bunch who worked their asses off (literally). And, when they were not beating the crap out of each other, they were at the pool jumping rope at the top of the bleachers wearing 3 sweat shirts. Plus they did all that without eating.
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Not a reply to you specifically Eric.

We could consider the question this way:
Fitness is broadly defined as "The ability to meet the demands of the environment", or words to that effect.

Using this as the measure of fitness, I would argue that runners are the fittest of the three sets of athletes due to the fact that they can excel in a broader range of sporting and day to day environments as a result of their type of conditioning.
A top class runner will have a head start in most sports (compared with others of equal experience in that sport), due to their ability to quickly cover ground on foot. Furthermore, being able to run and move quickly on foot is a much more useful skill across the course of the average person's day to day life.

Of course, there is a lot to be said for the abilities of cyclists and swimmers - They are amazing athletes, but only in their situationally specific environments.

For example, I can't think of a time in my life where I've HAD to be able to swim. In this day and age, drowning that isn't a result of either a swimmer who got in to trouble or a young child falling into something is mercifully rare. Short of a flashflood or a shipwreck, I can't think of a situation in adult general life where swimming will get you out of danger.

The same is true of cycling. The action of pedalling is just not a thing that exists outside of a cycling specific environment. Sure, having the aerobic capacity is useful. But it isn't backed up with specific muscular conditioning that is applicable to lots of situations in the same way that running is.

My $0.02
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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noofus wrote:
prattzc wrote:
Of course, all things being equal in terms to training volume and genetics:

Swimming is the only sport at a young age that will change your body permanently for the better. The lungs grow to compensate and do not reduce in size.

Swimming is less harmful than the other 2 sports.

Swimming is a more complete workout as it covers aerobic, anaerobic, strength, fast twitch and slow twitch.

Swimming lets you see the opposite sex in the least amount of clothing.


I think we have a clear winner

In that case, the answer is conclusive: Porn stars are the fittest
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [Liaman] [ In reply to ]
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Liaman wrote:
Not a reply to you specifically Eric.
We could consider the question this way:
Fitness is broadly defined as "The ability to meet the demands of the environment", or words to that effect.
Using this as the measure of fitness, I would argue that runners are the fittest of the three sets of athletes due to the fact that they can excel in a broader range of sporting and day to day environments as a result of their type of conditioning.
A top class runner will have a head start in most sports (compared with others of equal experience in that sport), due to their ability to quickly cover ground on foot. Furthermore, being able to run and move quickly on foot is a much more useful skill across the course of the average person's day to day life.
Of course, there is a lot to be said for the abilities of cyclists and swimmers - They are amazing athletes, but only in their situationally specific environments.
For example, I can't think of a time in my life where I've HAD to be able to swim. In this day and age, drowning that isn't a result of either a swimmer who got in to trouble or a young child falling into something is mercifully rare. Short of a flashflood or a shipwreck, I can't think of a situation in adult general life where swimming will get you out of danger.
The same is true of cycling. The action of pedalling is just not a thing that exists outside of a cycling specific environment. Sure, having the aerobic capacity is useful. But it isn't backed up with specific muscular conditioning that is applicable to lots of situations in the same way that running is.
My $0.02

Well, i haven't ever had to run entire life either. As my masters-swim-only friends say, they only run if someone/something is chasing them:)

If we use your fitness definition of "The ability to meet the demands of the environment, or words to that effect", then i would look at it as "who does the most work in their training", from which we can infer "who can do the most work" in the general sense of saying yard work, farm work, etc. Looking at who does the most work implies looking at calories burned in training, which points to swimmers, cyclists, and tri-guys as doing roughly similar amounts of work training, with runners coming in at about 60% as much work done. Your average elite swim/bike/tri guy trains from 1000-1200 hr/yr vs about 600-700 hr/yr for your avg elite distance runner, and hence burns way more calories and does lots more work.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Who is more fit? Swimmers, Cyclists, or Runner? [Noof] [ In reply to ]
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Of course, the real answer in a shit hits the fan sense would be modern pentathletes. Swim, run, ride a horse, shoot, or stab. All useful skills in the zombie apocalypse...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: None [JSully] [ In reply to ]
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JSully wrote:
In HS cross country, full of people that ran DI in college, we decided it was swimmers. Then us. Followed by soccer players. We'd occasionally have people from other sports wander onto the team, or other teams would decide to run with us for whatever reason(punishment, usually). The swimmers would always do well, never whined or got dropped, most were pretty good runners. Most soccer players would whine, but only some would get dropped, and a few did really well.
And U.S. Runners could go to any sports practice and do the conditioning just fine. We'd finish, and then go out and run some more(else our coach would get onto us about slacking off...). A number of us runners also played other sports and said that CC was harder.
But the swimming? No, we'd drown. We absolutely could not do their workouts. Thus they were the most fit.

JS - We swimmers appreciate it when a runner appreciates us:) Thanks!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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