Since I have played around with various solutions to this issue, I am puzzled as to how exactly the edco "11 on 10" cassette system works.

Because when you put a shimano 11-speed cassette on a zipp 808 10-speed hub (I assume the zipp disc freehub body is identical), the last cog and lockring will be nearly flush with the hub's right side axle locknut. This would make for an unusable arrangement, the last cog would be so close to the frame dropout that the chain would rub the frame in that gear. Edco might have a different lockring, but their cog spacing still has to be the same as shimano's for shifting compatibility.

The only solution to get 11 cogs on these older zipp hubs is to modify the freehub body (not a ideal solution, as some of these milled down bodies crack after use). Another solution would be to have an 11-speed cassette that is slightly "concave" on the backside, this allows the extra cog to be squeezed in, not near the dropout, but near the spokes. But the edco cassette is flat on the back.

I just don't yet understand how a 'special' lockring can solve all of this. So I await your report. A suggestion, bring your wheel with you to the shop, and test out the cassette fit before you plunk down any cash ...

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Wheels manufacturing has been making conversion cassettes for a long time with C11 spacing.

What could go wrong? The 11spd cassette is wider so you may not have room. Space will be taken up either between the spokes and largest cog, or the smallest cog and the dropout. If your 10spd hub was intelligently designed to not have excess space, then there would be no "slop", and 11spd wouldn't fit.

+1

They only work if you have excess gaps with 10spd.

But zipps (10-speed) don't really have that.

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Sounds like I should reign in my excitement then? As an owner of a brand new P5 I am keen not to have the chain going to town on the chain stay paintwork! I don't know. I'm not technical enough. Sounds like I am going to be taking my P5 and disc wheel down to the LBS and see what's what. I will call them tomorrow or Monday to check they have stock and try to get a report up this week. If it does work, I'll be a happy man! If not, well not biggy, I just stick with 10 gears for now. I also have a set of old Bonty Aeolus 5's that need this to work too.

One thing I have found with the taking of the 14 tooth cog out of my cassette on the disc at least is that the shifting is compromised. To go up one gear from 13 to 15, I need to frequently (read always), change up two gears from 13 to 16 and then back down one to 15. If I click just the once, the chain doesn't shift. I will have to re-visit the fine tuning perhaps, but does seem to be an issue for me at least.

About your shifting, what size cassette are you using right now? Mechanical or di2 drivetrain?

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I've got a mechanical DA 9000. Cassette is a 11 - 28 11 speed DA.

Play around a little bit with your RD's barrel adjuster. The missing cog should make that shift (across the 'missing' cog spot) a bit slower than normal (shift ramps are in different spots), but it should still shift.

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Maybe not on the chainstay side, but likely there is excess between the derailleur and spokes. Surely the Edco cassette lets you adjust it so you can use any space available.

I can't remember if there is any way to extend the Zipp axle to 131-132mm with spacers. Do you know? That would make it almost certain to work, but dish would need a little tweaking.

The edcos look pretty basic, no adjustment on the spoke side (at least nothing visible).

Not sure about extending the axle.
But that might work for this issue, if it were possible.

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Just seems the simple and will work solution is taking the cog out. If folks used 10 speed gearing for a long time, why are some saying it is not any good now?
Also by going this way, one has an 11 speed cassette paid for when one upgrades to a 11 speed wheel.

For me, do not even want to get near this for costs. I will wait until next year when the frames are changed to 135 for disc brakes. Then I will consider new wheels
which would last a lot longer than a plain 11 speed wheel.

.

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Well either way, you have an 11 speed cassette ready whether that is the edco or the DA one. If I do ever upgrade my wheel to 11 speed, I will have the cassette anyway, so don't get your argument as to the cost of upgrading to the 11 speed wheel? I could keep running the 11 speed with the cog dropped out yes, but as mentioned above, with my one the shifting is not great at the moment.

The cost of the edco solution should it work would be £170, so $250 or so? Compare that with either buying a new frame or a new disc wheel and it is chump change. If you haven't already got a garage full of old 10 speed wheels then yes, sit and wait, but for me, I have a Zipp disc, and a bonty Aeolus 5 series wheel that are only 10 speed compatible - replacing these would be some $3000?

Each to their own - for me it would be well worth the investment should it work.

The edcos look pretty basic, no adjustment on the spoke side (at least nothing visible).

I mean they should naturally have the large cog further inboard, and they can be spaced to the right as needed. They come with a 0.5mm spacer, anyway.

The Edco seems to be the same solution as the DT Swiss 11-speed conversion By replacing the freehub body and end cap.

They say it does require 1mm of extra width so your wheel will be .5mm out of dish. It is reported that this is not enough to require a re-dish of the wheel.

I would also be curious if Shimano will release other cassette options for the XT and XTR 11-speed cassettes that fit on a 10-speed freehub. 11-40 is just a bit too big of gaps. Maybe.

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I think I follow, but shimano 11-speed cassettes already have their largest cogs fully inboard. There is only one way to go more, and that would be to have a concave big cog set.

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There is only one way to go more, and that would be to have a concave big cog set.

Yes, it's easy to have the large cog farther inboard than the spline.

In fact it should be so easy I don't know why someone isn't doing it. You could buy Shimano or Sram cassettes, and grind off a couple mm from the aluminum spider on the biggest cog.

I can take a guess why. On our zipp 808 hub, if you did that, almost immediately the "spokes" or arms of the cassette supports and the rivets where those arms are attached to the biggest cog would hit the large spoke anchors of our circa 2008 zipp hubs. The spoke anchors are the big 'bumps' on the driveside of this hub:

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It won't work on every hub, but then nothing else will either. If you grind off ~2mm from the spider of the biggest cog, and then provide .5 and 1mm spacers, you can adjust it to whatever works.

Isn't the 11spd 2.85mm wider than 10spd? No way you are going to move all that to the dropout side on any hub.

Has anyone tried the Edco cassette yet? Any feedback?

I have a somewhat related question, and this suggests an answer, but is not completely clear....do you mane just swap out the 10spd free hub for the 11 speed free hub which can be had for ~$100? Or, do you mean use the conversion kit that comes with the new axel and free hub for ~$180 that they use in the conversion and re-dish process.

The reason I ask is...I have a 2012 Beyond Black 808 10spd that I want to convert to 11spd. My LBS said they could do the conversion, but that I should not worry about a re-dish since it was a small shift of a couple of mm (they probably don;t want to fool with it either). Two reasons I would be happy not to re-disch:
(1) don't fix what isn't broken - my wheels have been good and I don't want to have someone start monkeying on the spokes if I don't need to, possibly starting a spoke breaking campaign a few weeks out from race season;
(2) i have a 2014 trek SC, I run a disc cover, and it damn near rubs the protrusion from the bump in the left stay for the integrated trek speed sensor. This being said, if the wheel shifts to the right a couple of mm from the conversion (Zipp told me that would be the case on the phone), then it may actually help with clearance.

All this being said:
(1) it does not seem like I need to re-dish, correct? and
(2) what needs to be done to convert (without a re-dish)? a hub conversion kit for ~$100, or do I still need the hub/axle conversion kit for ~$180?

I could try to send this to wheel builder or someone, but I prefer to have the LBS get the part and do it myself, or worst case, have the LBS install it - I am assuming it is a decently simple install - anyone know what is involved?

Thanks.

cldtx wrote:

do you just swap out the 10spd free hub for the 11 speed free hub which can be had for ~$100? Or, do you mean use the conversion kit that comes with the new axel and free hub for ~$180 that they use in the conversion and re-dish process.

I think you can find the answer in the product description for the ZIPP 11-SPEED 188 FREE HUB KIT


After replacing the axle to convert to 11-speed, the wheel needs to be re-dished ~~1.85mm and the reason some don't want to attempt this is because Zipp used thread lock compound when assembling the wheels and will require more than just a spoke wrench to complete. So short answer, if your bike frame has adequate tire clearance after a 2mm offset, or you never intend to use wider tires, then no need to have the wheels re-dished.

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Thanks, helpful info - regarding the "kit", I have read through the 11 speed free hub description, and reviewed the full axle kit. I understand the intention of both - I also know that, like the "dishing" requirement, manufactures often say things need to be done or can only be used for one thing, but in reality it may not need to be done or can be used for other things. The post above made it sound like she/he had experience with using just the hub kit - I assume that using the hub alone would have some fitment issues, but I wanted to confirm before committing to the path of the full kit. The other thing that was a bit off is that my LBS said they could do it for around $120. My guess is that they were just talking without looking up the cost for the full kit, but it left some doubt about what kit/parts may be required. Most likely, I will get the full kit from my LBS and go from there.

Leonard Zinn published a tech article - [url=http://velonews.competitor.com/...-and-11-speed_301392]Technical FAQ: Drivetrain compatibility for 10- and 11-speed[/url]. The image below from that article illustrates one of the reasons why we can't simply swap the freehub on pre-2013 hubs:

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