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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, Obree used a home made trainer setup, which was effectively power meter. It was cheaper but a lot more work.

Riding the same circuit or weekly TT is too noisy, it can be weeks or months before you are sure performance has changed, and if you don't keep position and clothing and equipment constant, you won't know why it changed.

Yes cycling is a blend of power, weight, and aerodynamics, and without a power meter you never know which of those has caused the improvement. With a power meter you do know.





Zen Minimalist wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Training with power led to great improvements for years, this is the first one of stagnation. I'm glad I know there is stagnation.


Zen Minimalist wrote:
So you have used a power meter to prove that training with power has failed to improve performance despite doing more training.

Do you not see the irony?

But there are many ways to measure performance other than a power meter.

Obree for example used a carefully set up traimer.

People riding the same circuit in training many times would be well aware of changes in performance.

An old school cyclist doing a regular time trial each week will be able to measure performance against regular opponents.

The object of cyclimg performance is a blend of power, weight and aerodynamics, - more to it than power in isolation.

Athletes and sportsmen have always measured performance.

Only cycling is obsessed by measuring performance in terms of power alone.

Cyclimg is as much about aerodynamics as it is power and weight.

The advantages of a power meter are more in the region of power and aerodynamics than in training.

Frankly, a power meter is wasted as a training aid.

A power meter should be used as a measuring device which enables power, weight and aerodynamics to be tested.

For training purposes in isolation, a power meter is not needed.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Trev] [ In reply to ]
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Trev wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
AWARE wrote:
That was how it was intended. We should be able to ride without the gadgets & extract the same results. Moreover, we should be able to ride without our head plugged into an electronic so that we can actually experience the ride - in case that knowledge is needed when said gadgetry fails.

We can ride with it all - but if you can't/won't/don't then you're missing out on what the simple & pure joy of riding a bike (& the ability to do so) really should be.

Beauty of the ST-universe: N-1=right/wrong as a rule, no grey, no room for any interpretation or consideration given to one person having a different "opinion".


So you are an ass...glad that you are so self aware.

Just imagine if there were such a person that could ride with gadgets and enjoy the world around them and be able to ride without them if needed for whatever reason. What a wild dream that would be...


Rude, ignorant, argumentative, blatant trolling.
Everyone, look at this guys posting history, he has nothing of value to add, no original thought, no valid or consistent opinions.

You have been here what, a couple of months and half your posts are argumentative............so just drop the B.S...ok
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [AWARE] [ In reply to ]
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I do that, too, but thanks for the judgement. Obviously since I'm aware that I'm not going to be FOP (mainly because I can't put the time in to do so) & I'm more determined & aware that it should all be for enjoyment, I'm clearly not a competitive sort. No way I'm capable of really racing since I don't base my entire existence on my ftp numbers or the wattage I should sustain over an IM ride. I'm so glad that you felt the need to qualify my "category", thanks for your help.

Are you kidding?


I simply suggested bike touring because you seem to appreciate bicycling just for the joy of biking. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "category", what on earth does that mean.


You seem to be trying hard to read between the lines here, trying hard to find something to be offended over.


You really are a jerk.

Last edited by: Sanuk: Apr 23, 15 7:34
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
My Asia route was, Turkey - Georgia - Azerbijan - Turkmenistan - Uzbekistan - Tajikstan - China - Vietnam - Laos - Cambodia - Thailand - Malaysia - Singapore.

Did you post a blog or do you have anything online description or photo-wise about your journey?
Not many have cycled around the world, it would be cool to learn more.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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Zen Minimalist wrote:

But there are many ways to measure performance other than a power meter.

Obree for example used a carefully set up traimer.

People riding the same circuit in training many times would be well aware of changes in performance.

An old school cyclist doing a regular time trial each week will be able to measure performance against regular opponents.

The object of cyclimg performance is a blend of power, weight and aerodynamics, - more to it than power in isolation.

Athletes and sportsmen have always measured performance.

Only cycling is obsessed by measuring performance in terms of power alone.

Cyclimg is as much about aerodynamics as it is power and weight.

The advantages of a power meter are more in the region of power and aerodynamics than in training.

Frankly, a power meter is wasted as a training aid.

A power meter should be used as a measuring device which enables power, weight and aerodynamics to be tested.

For training purposes in isolation, a power meter is not needed.

Cyclists use power precisely because of the variables you've mentioned above--and that's why it's so useful as a training aid. Sure,you could control for wind, tires, air density, clothing, pavement conditions,etc---or, you could do all of your rides in a controlled indoor environment. OR, you can simply go out and train and measure power you're actually producing?

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that simply measuring the power I'm producing is a hell of a lot easier way to measure and track progress... Sometimes "gadgets" actually simplify things, so claims that a power meter is unnecessarily cumbersome falls a bit flat to me.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [feman] [ In reply to ]
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feman wrote:
Knowing your RPE is still one of the best methodologies for racing and training. :-)
I know this and often live by it, but I'll be damned if not having my gps data, speed, cadence, power, HR numbers to look at after my rides this past week hasn't been annoying as hell. (My bike was stolen last week) I don't own a watch (millenials... I know)... so I haven't even had time to go off of. It's like "yeah I think that was about 4 hrs, and I know it was endurance paced but HOW MANY WATTS WAS IT??

---------------------
Jordan Oroshiba --- Roadie invading Triathlete space for knowledge access
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Did you post a blog or do you have anything online description or photo-wise about your journey?

I was writing a blog but in August 2014, my trip was stopped in the U.S when I was hit from behind by a truck outside of Bend, Oregon. I spent 4 months recovering and moved back to Thailand and am here now. For that reason, I didn't complete a circumference despite having biked over 40,000 km. I stopped my blog after my accident. I doubt I will ever be fully recovered enough to continue down to Ushuia which was my plan. I was about 3 weeks or so from the Mexico border when I got hit.

If I get my courage back I will start again in Bend and bike down to the tip of South America to complete the circle. When I left Sydney, Australia, I flew up to Inuvik in the Arctic Circle and biked down the Dempster Highway and through the Rockies into the U.S. I was looking forward to going from Inuvik to Ushuia but didn't make it. The Europe, Middle East and Asian portions were a blast but I never made it to Central and South America.

If I do continue, I'll start my blog again but for now it is shut down.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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I have never raced using power or HR. Always by feel.
I just started training with power this year.

http://www.MattRussellTri.com -Pro Triathlete -Tri Coach
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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There is a very special, secret, high tech (but expensive) way to train/race on feel and get all the benefits of training/racing with power:-
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/...ieipavu8x-800-75.jpg

Last edited by: Tapeworm: Apr 24, 15 2:08
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Tapeworm] [ In reply to ]
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There was a great quote last year by a top AG competitor (I do not remember his name, he was from Canada) who said "all you need is a watch, and a plan" I thought that was awesome.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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There was a great quote last year by a top AG competitor (I do not remember his name, he was from Canada) who said "all you need is a watch, and a plan" I thought that was awesome.


I think he was banned from ST for blasphemy.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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endosch2 wrote:
There was a great quote last year by a top AG competitor (I do not remember his name, he was from Canada) who said "all you need is a watch, and a plan" I thought that was awesome.

you don't even need a watch.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Tapeworm] [ In reply to ]
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Ding

Tapeworm wrote:
There is a very special, secret, high tech (but expensive) way to train/race on feel and get all the benefits of training/racing with power:-
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/...ieipavu8x-800-75.jpg



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Tapeworm] [ In reply to ]
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Tapeworm wrote:
There is a very special, secret, high tech (but expensive) way to train/race on feel and get all the benefits of training/racing with power:-
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/...ieipavu8x-800-75.jpg


Yes, but if you know you are recording the performace, the result is interfered with, so it isn't zen.

No mind and all that. Which is interestingly so contradictory to the modern ' mindfulness' clap trap so aggressively and fashionably promoted in recent years.

What is that experiment with the waves and particles and observing them interferes with the result?

Schrodingers cat lives.
Last edited by: Zen Minimalist: Apr 24, 15 13:44
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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Zen Minimalist wrote:

Yes, but if you know you are recording the performace, the result is interfered with, so it isn't zen.

What is zen about a watch?
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
endosch2 wrote:
There was a great quote last year by a top AG competitor (I do not remember his name, he was from Canada) who said "all you need is a watch, and a plan" I thought that was awesome.


you don't even need a watch.

All I need is a microwave. Check the time on the microwave when I leave and then check it when I get back.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [mrtopher1980] [ In reply to ]
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mrtopher1980 wrote:
Zen Minimalist wrote:

Yes, but if you know you are recording the performace, the result is interfered with, so it isn't zen.

What is zen about a watch?

What is zen about a power meter?

What is zen about a pond with goldfish?

But as far as watches go there is a huge paradox.

A hand made clockwork watch with many moving parts which requires many hours of skilled labour to manufacture is more zen than a mass produced Quartz watch with very few moving parts.

But a mass produced watch with many functions which is made by hand and costs thousands of dollars is less zen than a cheap mass produced watch which does not even have a second hand.

A sword made by hand according to strict rules which takes hundreds of hours to manufacture using traditional techniques is more zen than a cheap mass produced rifle.

But an ornate sword over embellished with artistic decoration is less zen than a cheap mass produced sword.

A shot gun made by Purdy costing £20,000 is zen despite the ornate decoration but a Kalashnikov rifle isn't zen despite the simplicity and robustness.

Paradoxical?

I have a collection of watches. my most zen watches are an automatic clockwork hand made watch which cost thousands of pounds and a watch powered by the sun with no secomd hand day or date which cost £120. Both are zen.

Mindfulness or no mind?

A steel frame bicycle frame made by a craftsman set up with a single fixed gear is zen.

A carbon fibre frame with 11 speed automatic shifting and a power meter isn't zen.
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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So you don't even know what zen actually means as demonstrated by your last post.

Great
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Zen Minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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Trev, why are you posting this garbage???
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [mrtopher1980] [ In reply to ]
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mrtopher1980 wrote:
So you don't even know what zen actually means as demonstrated by your last post.

Great




Keichu's Wheel
Getsuan said to this students: `Keichu, the first wheel-maker of China, made two wheels of fifty spokes each. Now, suppose you removed the nave uniting the spokes. What would become of the wheel? And had Keichu done thism could he be called the master wheel-maker?'

Last edited by: Zen Minimalist: Apr 24, 15 20:12
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Re: Training without power or heart rate [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
I wouldn't even be close to as fast as I've gotten without training with power and heart rate.


How could you know that for sure?

Empirical data before and after for each device. Big gains were made with each device about 3 months after purchase.

While I try to go by feel as much as possible for training and racing, I'm still an engineer at my core and need that data feedback to try to figure out the whole picture.

-Bryan Journey
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