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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:

On another note I wonder what Hamburg will be like given it's only two weeks before Rio. It's also hosting the relays.

Interestingly, it is very much easier to recover from a sprint triathlon than an Olympic distance. The latter requires nearly a week or more before they can return to full training. Sprints are very much easier on the body. So I would expect the English athletes to be in St Moritz until a week (or even a few days) before Hamburg, sharpen up with a sprint and a really, and then fly to Rio...
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
Mola's definitely shown he's a much better sprint athlete so for me it would make sense to skip Yoko and hit up the sprint in London. He's down on the start list for Yoko as it stands. But more importantly than London, I'd say his absolute focus should be getting his swim 20 seconds faster and getting his biking up a notch. If he doesn't he could get blown away in Rio.

Absolutely agree, I think the same applies to Murray at least on the swim. Mola and Murray are probably the only 2 with the run credentials to seriously challenge the Brownlee's, Gomez and a few of the French guys for a medal in Rio. However I think they need to get out in the front swim pack in Rio to give themselves any chance of a medal.

For me I'd forgo some results this year and really focus on the swim for the next 12 months given that if they can get out with the lead swim pack in Rio, they're right in the mix for a medal.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [HKoldtimer] [ In reply to ]
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Mola and Murray have known they need to improve their swim since London 2012 and the fact that neither has suggests that it just isn't possible at elite level to make this sort of improvement. Swimming is a technical discipline and perhaps like violin playing, unless you start very early, you can never perfect it. Can you think of any elite athlete who has improved to become a front pack swimmer among the men? I'm not sure I can.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with the Olympics is that with only three athletes per country, plus entrants who wouldn't normally feature in an ITU race, there is a much bigger range of ability and fewer feet to hang on to. With it being non-wetsuit plus the potential swell, an awful lot of competitors (hopefully not Mola and Murray) will be out of contention within minutes of the start.

Rio 2016 is going to be very different from London 2012, when there was the potential for the sort of race we saw in Cape Town (but prevented by the Brownlees and Hayes keeping the pace so high they kept the second pack at bay.) If the Brownlees and Gomez emerge in the first 10 (which frankly they nearly always do), the two steep climbs (which combined requies 80% more climbing than the hardest bike courses in recent memory) separated by a tight technical descent, makes it almost impossible for a chase pack to form. Alistair and Jonny reckon the whole field will be reduced to small groups of stragglers. So Mola and Murray really have no option but to get into the lead swim group. And be able to run after 700 plus meters of vertical ascent (and remember how Mola was shredded in Auckland having climbed only about 400).

I think this is going to make the women's race a lot more interesting though.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't seen the full video, only the highlights, but it looked like Richard M attacked during the race. He tried to get away on the bike and made the early pace on the run. Ok he didn't quite have it in the last 1-2k but I fancy his chances more than Mola as he seems to be addressing his weaknesses?

I also thought it was interesting that Gomez made a point of getting out of the water first?

All that aside AB finds ways to win races. He has had a puncture (European Champs), got tripped over, not run fit, so he finds a bike break to get into the result is generally the same. I don't see that changing in Rio 2016.
Last edited by: newManUK: Apr 29, 15 2:27
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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NewManUK, don't you mean that "Murray attacked" in the sense that he raced aggressively, rather than "Murray was attacked" meaning someone ganged up on him?

I think Murray is a more natural competitor than Mola. In Rio, his problem is going to be the swim, but judging by his performance at Kitzbuhel 2013, the steepness of the climbs (two separate ones that peak at 15% or more) will also go against his relatively solid body type. The Rio bike course is almost a conspiracy on behalf of the organisers to ensure another Brownlee Gomez podium...
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
messien wrote:


On another note I wonder what Hamburg will be like given it's only two weeks before Rio. It's also hosting the relays.


Interestingly, it is very much easier to recover from a sprint triathlon than an Olympic distance. The latter requires nearly a week or more before they can return to full training. Sprints are very much easier on the body. So I would expect the English athletes to be in St Moritz until a week (or even a few days) before Hamburg, sharpen up with a sprint and a really, and then fly to Rio...


Do you know for certain they're gonna prep for Rio back in St Moritz? The last I'd heard, which was a while ago, was that they weren't certain whether they'd move their base over to somewhere nearer to Rio (although that doesn't seem the most viable of ideas, and given Rio's winter months come with August in the middle it's probably not that essential in terms of heat acclimatisation).

Great point btw on how the swim will be even more spread out.
Last edited by: messien: Apr 29, 15 3:58
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [messien] [ In reply to ]
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Messien, I don't know that and as I was typing it, I did remember that they said they might train elsewhere. But I "posted reply" any way! The thing about St Moritz is that it is easy for their training partners to get there (some of whom have other jobs), they know the routes, and they know it works.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah setting up shop in South America would be a bit of an uncertain process but given how utterly meticulous they were for London (i.e contacting the local council to ensure that there were no planned late night construction works happening near the hotel they'd be staying in) I wouldn't rule anything out.

Also this photo I think dispels any rumoured bad blood between AB and Gomez: https://pbs.twimg.com/.../CDvgxYnVEAAee_I.jpg
Last edited by: messien: Apr 29, 15 4:09
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
Mola and Murray have known they need to improve their swim since London 2012 and the fact that neither has suggests that it just isn't possible at elite level to make this sort of improvement. Swimming is a technical discipline and perhaps like violin playing, unless you start very early, you can never perfect it. Can you think of any elite athlete who has improved to become a front pack swimmer among the men? I'm not sure I can.

I think you're probably right. However given it's the Olympics I'd be doing everything possible to at least try, especially as it's almost a certainty in Rio that unless you make the front swim pack you are out of medal contention.

Murray has definitely improved his swim over the last 5 years but I agree at that elite level he may not have much further improvement in him. Still it's got to be worth a try but will probably mean he'd have to compromise his bike/run for this season and accept some sub par results while he focuses on the swim.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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newManUK wrote:
All that aside AB finds ways to win races. He has had a puncture (European Champs), got tripped over, not run fit, so he finds a bike break to get into the result is generally the same. I don't see that changing in Rio 2016.

Yeah he has that habit alright. Bear in mind at Cape Town he started all the way over at the other end of the pontoon. Watching how the swim unfolded with the race out to the first turn, it looked like a disadvantage to me and he must have muscled and hustled his way over to come out where he did into T1.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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AB is quite modest about his swimming and yet I don't think he has ever finished outside the top 10 in any ITU swim. On the other hand, I don't think his swim has improved that much either. And it reinforces what I was saying earlier that if you don't have the technique to swim well as a teenager, it is very hard to improve it afterwards as Murray has discovered. Murray has improved but among better swims, he still has frequent catastrophes (like Edmonton.) It is the consistency of the Bs and Gomez that is remarkable.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I was lucky to see the boys in a pool session at the Leeds Uni pool, I had a stroke analysis session booked in straight after with one of the coaches that works with the squad. They looked plenty fast to me! I didn't clock whether Varga was in there, it was 2013.

I had to feel for the coach. I was about 1:50 per hundred at the time and she went straight from working with those world class guys to having to look at me throwing random shapes, she must have wondered where on earth to begin!!
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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They have a stroke analysis / stationary pool facility at the New Rover Cricket Club (aquatread.co.uk) in case you didn't know...
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
Mola and Murray have known they need to improve their swim since London 2012 and the fact that neither has suggests that it just isn't possible at elite level to make this sort of improvement. Swimming is a technical discipline and perhaps like violin playing, unless you start very early, you can never perfect it. Can you think of any elite athlete who has improved to become a front pack swimmer among the men? I'm not sure I can.

As a life-long swimmer, I would not say that swimming is a "technical discipline" per se, and i certainly wouldn't compare it to playing the violin. Swimming is an upper-body (UB) strength/power/endurance sport and the problem that some lower body (LB) sport guys have is that their UB is just not as strong as their LB. Also, you have to have some degree of coordination to swim well which can also sometimes be a problem for some people, but swimming does not have the eye-hand coordination requirements of say tennis or baseball. While it will sound like a broken record to those who've read my swim posts in the past, i will for about the 40th time point out that right here on ST our own klehner started swimming at age 26 and yet went 51.0 for 100 scy at age 28; mikenultra is around 40 and has gone 50.X for 100 scy and is training to break 50 at age 40; lightheir has gone from swimming 2:15/100 for the 100 yd TT to swimming 1:20/100. In my own masters swimming experience, i've known several USMS swimmers who went low 50s for 100 scy despite not starting swimming until their late 20s or even 30s, but none of them could run very well:)
In sum, there is a definite genetic component to any given sport and the best tri guys are those who have been lucky enough to inherit great skills in all three sports, and of course who have the hunger and the drive to fully develop these talents. I would venture to say that it is more a lack of swim-specific talent that holds back adult-onset swimmers, rather than the fact of starting as an adult.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
I'm not convinced Katie Zaferes is a particularly fast runner. She is a strength athlete who thrives on tough races but after a relatively easy bike, I think she is vulnerable.

I also got the impression from her interview that she didn't really know who Vicky Holland is!

Katie Z has a very odd way of running, in fact she looks more like a long distance walker. But for someone who has only been in the sport two years, she is pretty impressive however she moves.

Auckland wasn't an easy bike and KZ still ran well so i'm not sure that she needs relatively easy bikes to do well. she's so new to the sport so it's hard to cap her upside on the run but she certainly doesn't appear to be any worse of a runner than the rest of the women looking to stay within a minute of gwen on the run.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I expressed myself badly. Katie Z forte is strength endurance and so I would expect her to outrun most people after a course like Auckland.

I think the easier the bike, the less strength endurance is such a crucial factor, which is why Vicky Holland was able to win by injecting pace at the right moment. I don't think Vicky would be as likely to run away from KZ in New Zealand, for example.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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That makes more sense. BTW, I greatly appreciate your insightful comments on ITU so keep them coming.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the same thing. And suspect she will have a very successful transition to the dark side if she chooses to do so in several years.
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I love these ITU threads
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [andy12] [ In reply to ]
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Me too - as much as I enjoy the occasional troll on Fekete (calling Ali a prick, asking if he's Malcolm Brown) I genuinely appreciate the guys with insider knowledge. I also appreciate the insightful observations from the regular armchair folks.

Now if we could only get together for Barrie/ Trevor drinking games:

"It's a real washing machine at the first buoy"

Drink

"Gillian Sanders is also a lawyer"

Drink

"(Some joke about the Russians' English prior to the interview)"

Drink

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

As a life-long swimmer, I would not say that swimming is a "technical discipline" per se, and i certainly wouldn't compare it to playing the violin. Swimming is an upper-body (UB) strength/power/endurance sport and the problem that some lower body (LB) sport guys have is that their UB is just not as strong as their LB. Also, you have to have some degree of coordination to swim well which can also sometimes be a problem for some people, but swimming does not have the eye-hand coordination requirements of say tennis or baseball. While it will sound like a broken record to those who've read my swim posts in the past, i will for about the 40th time point out that right here on ST our own klehner started swimming at age 26 and yet went 51.0 for 100 scy at age 28; mikenultra is around 40 and has gone 50.X for 100 scy and is training to break 50 at age 40; lightheir has gone from swimming 2:15/100 for the 100 yd TT to swimming 1:20/100. In my own masters swimming experience, i've known several USMS swimmers who went low 50s for 100 scy despite not starting swimming until their late 20s or even 30s, but none of them could run very well:)
In sum, there is a definite genetic component to any given sport and the best tri guys are those who have been lucky enough to inherit great skills in all three sports, and of course who have the hunger and the drive to fully develop these talents. I would venture to say that it is more a lack of swim-specific talent that holds back adult-onset swimmers, rather than the fact of starting as an adult.


Have to say I disagree with this for the most part.

If we just break down your post into its constituent components I think that becomes evident. On the one hand you reference people on this forum, 'Klehner', 'Mikenultra', 'Lightheir' in order to demonstrate how it's possible to make huge improvements, and then you attribute this in part to their genetics and swim-specific talent (of course combined with hard work no doubt).

As you indicate these people have been knocking off swathes of time in events as short as the 100! Some of them have been taking over 20, 30 seconds off their time. Imagine what that would translate to over the course of an 1.5k olympic swim.

The utterly huge difference in ITU racing is that everyone is racing at the finest of margins. Forget about trying to take 20 seconds off your 100m time, try taking 20 seconds off your 1500 time. That's the difference between making the front pack and making the chasing pack. Time and time again, that's the difference which separates Mola and Murray from Brownlee and Gomez.

Of course if you take an age-group swimmer who's never really swam before, teach them the techniques of swimming, train up their swimming related cardiovascular fitness you'll see a huge improvement in their 100m time from year 1 to year 2. But that's a world away compared to ITU racing.

When you're at the finest of margins being able to take 2 seconds of your hundred whilst you're out there getting smashed in the face, having to close down a gap as you go round the buoy is what it's all about. And a huge part of that definitely comes from starting out swimming when you're five years old and just developing it over a decade whilst you're still in your youth and receptive to that transformative process.
Last edited by: messien: Apr 30, 15 2:42
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Re: ITU Cape Town 2015 [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

As a life-long swimmer, I would not say that swimming is a "technical discipline" per se, and i certainly wouldn't compare it to playing the violin. Swimming is an upper-body (UB) strength/power/endurance sport and the problem that some lower body (LB) sport guys have is that their UB is just not as strong as their LB. Also, you have to have some degree of coordination to swim well which can also sometimes be a problem for some people, but swimming does not have the eye-hand coordination requirements of say tennis or baseball. While it will sound like a broken record to those who've read my swim posts in the past, i will for about the 40th time point out that right here on ST our own klehner started swimming at age 26 and yet went 51.0 for 100 scy at age 28; mikenultra is around 40 and has gone 50.X for 100 scy and is training to break 50 at age 40; lightheir has gone from swimming 2:15/100 for the 100 yd TT to swimming 1:20/100. In my own masters swimming experience, i've known several USMS swimmers who went low 50s for 100 scy despite not starting swimming until their late 20s or even 30s, but none of them could run very well:)
In sum, there is a definite genetic component to any given sport and the best tri guys are those who have been lucky enough to inherit great skills in all three sports, and of course who have the hunger and the drive to fully develop these talents. I would venture to say that it is more a lack of swim-specific talent that holds back adult-onset swimmers, rather than the fact of starting as an adult.


Have to say I disagree with this for the most part.

If we just break down your post into its constituent components I think that becomes evident. On the one hand you reference people on this forum, 'Klehner', 'Mikenultra', 'Lightheir' in order to demonstrate how it's possible to make huge improvements, and then you attribute this in part to their genetics and swim-specific talent (of course combined with hard work no doubt).

As you indicate these people have been knocking off swathes of time in events as short as the 100! Some of them have been taking over 20, 30 seconds off their time. Imagine what that would translate to over the course of an 1.5k olympic swim.

The utterly huge difference in ITU racing is that everyone is racing at the finest of margins. Forget about trying to take 20 seconds off your 100m time, try taking 20 seconds off your 1500 time. That's the difference between making the front pack and making the chasing pack. Time and time again, that's the difference which separates Mola and Murray from Brownlee and Gomez.

Of course if you take an age-group swimmer who's never really swam before, teach them the techniques of swimming, train up their swimming related cardiovascular fitness you'll see a huge improvement in their 100m time from year 1 to year 2. But that's a world away compared to ITU racing.

When you're at the finest of margins being able to take 2 seconds of your hundred whilst you're out there getting smashed in the face, having to close down a gap as you go round the buoy is what it's all about. And a huge part of that definitely comes from starting out swimming when you're five years old and just developing it over a decade whilst you're still in your youth and receptive to that transformative process.

Understand what you're saying and i knew someone would say this:) We may have to agree to disagree as i think that it would be possible for a swimmer who is currently swimming say around 16:30 or 17:00 for 1500 scm in the pool, to get down to 16:00 or maybe 15:45 IF THEY HAVE THE SWIM SPECIFIC TALENT. This is really my point and one more example: Rowdy Gaines did not start swimming competitively until age 17 but yet was so talented that within 3-4 yrs he was setting WRs in the 100/200 free. Obv Gaines is a big outlier but it can be done if you have the talent. My suggestion is that some people simply have more swimming talent than others, just as some have more biking talents, and some more running talent. If you have excellent swimming talent, it will come out regardless of your age.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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