I'm not sure that I would be any faster at all with paddles in an all-out effort of any distance, b/c the paddles slow down my turnover rate such that I might even be slightly slower. I have never even tried to do any all out efforts w/ paddles b/c it just seems so non-race-like; I only use the paddles for their potential (although I think it is unproven) for improving swim-specific strength at low turnover rates. When i switch back and forth between padds and no padds for say several 200s, on avg i might be 2 sec/100 faster w/ the padds, but this is at a very moderate pace, not a fast pace.

OTOH, I am def 2-ish sec per 100 faster w/ fins than w/o fins in a single all out 100. However, that 2-ish sec/100 might decrease a lot in a 1650 yd/1500 m swim:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

x1,000 !!!

for point of reference (not to Jason, cause I've mentioned this to him before). I'm adult onset - started in '04. Sure I swam in my late 20's some, but got serious when I was 42. Basically got mad, and didn't want to come out of the water so far behind (in a tri). Swam 6 days/wk. told myself I loved it. Learned to love the pace clock (at that time swam LCM). Key workout philosophy was not to worry about cardio fitness. I already had that from decades of running and cycling. Point in the water was to get fast. So, I figured that I'd take plenty of rest per 100m to swim the 100's as fast as I could. Usually did 14x100 on 2:10, took awhile but got 'em down to ~85 average. Now I swim scy and do 12x100 on 2:05. fast ones in 67 (when I'm in shape). And, do plenty of other stuff now too; e.g. did a straight 4,225 last week in 57:50 (~1:22/100 pace).

Paddles? I have some old yellow speedos' from the 80's. I use 'em maybe 300yds per month.

Results: 1st out of the water in 6 of 8 tris. in my AG in '14. Swim volume is 6 - 10k yds/wk.

Works for me.

enjoy the journey. Keep in mind, if this stuff were easy, then everybody would be doin' it. And, we'd have to find something else that was tough.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

More time usually does work. Swimming 12 miles a week or 20K is quite a commitment. Time wise for many BOP or MOP swimmers that would be about 8 hours a week. Given triathlon time commitments for the bike and run it would be hard to do unless an age grouper got to the point where the swim was keeping them from the podium and they cut back on the others. I would also agree with Slowman, if you are going for the first three in your age group it helps to be FOP (like bicycle racing) which means even faster than your fast at times (like the first 400 meters).

I might agree with you that a lack of strength and NOT slippage is the issue. The slippage could be a symptom of the lack of strength and our arms slip more as we get tired so we go from mediocre to worse.

Turnover or strokes per minute is something to consider because that's hard to achieve too. At age 60, I can do 60 spm and that seems fast because the up and down of the head for two stroke breathing seems fast. The inner ear and the body finds it hard to go 10 or 15 strokes faster even if you are convinced that would help.

The Vasa could be a tool to get spm up there without having to turn the head or worry about air while gaining strength and power and learning EVF or high elbow pull. However, for some of us the Vasa is about the cost of our bikes and requires space in the house which might aggravate a spouse. I think I would agree with you that I would invest in a Vasa before an endless pool.

Could we be beating a dead horse here with age group swimmers? Like running we know that we need to increase strides per minute and length of stride. Simple yet hard to do. When we do one the other seems to falter. (With running and cycling I do go for spm first and then length.)

Given inner ear, shoulder, elbow, ankles and legs and an inability to even turn it over faster on the run or bike we might come to realize that even given 20k a week a person over 40 might top out at 2:00 or 1:50 without ever having a breakthrough.

It takes a lot of faith to stick with more miles of swimming or running or riding hoping for a breakthrough because we could lose that faith along the way or have physical limitations other than strength and technique that keep us modestly proficient.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Im an adult onset swimmer and struggling too. Have improved last years although at a slow rate. I tried all sorts of stuff to improve

This is what I learned
- there is no easy way. I and probably most ppl need to swim 10-12 km 5 times a week to see some improvement. 3-4 times a week you maintain. 2 and under you start to loose. Real improvements happen at 6-7 times per week 15km or more

- you can do all the drills in the world but without swim fitness your form quickly breaks down. Back at the point above. Time in the pool will also help feel for the water much more than I think drills can do


- kicking helps your body position and rhythm so kick sets are great even for triathletes

- 10-15k or what ever the number is per week sounds like a lot but its not. So that 10-15 km has to be done at good intensity. Only the warm up should be comfortable


- find someone who knows about swim training to write your program

- masters team, a coach etc is nice but no substitute to volume frequency and intensity

I am not fast. 100y repeats in on 1:22ish leaving 1:40. Went from ironman swim 2012 1h28min to 1:06 last year (and a 51 min on a downstream course but not comparable)

Good luck

Yes, the time commitment is significant to gain ability in swimming. But remember, it doesn't take that 20k per week to maintain it, or close to most of it, once you achieve it. I did a dedicated swim block while still running (no biking) to put in that volume, and now that I'm back on balanced training and doing no more than 4hrs per week of swim+vasa training, I'm almost as fast as I was, and significantly faster than I was pre-swim block.

The Vasa gets the spm up not by training high spm, but by making your arms so strong and fatigue resistant that the water feels much easier to plow your arms through. I never intentionally do high spm work on my Vasa, but my spm went up and up and up in the pool as the water felt lighter and lighter.

It does costs money and space - I def couldnt' afford one before getting a 'real' job. But for sure, there are wayyyy more Agers piling their money into race wheels, multiple power-measuring devices, or expensive bike upgrades who are leaving tons of time on the table in the swim and can clearly afford it. I will add that I can understand this as well - there's nothing fun/sexy about spending 5+hrs/wk in your basement on a glorified upside-down cable rowing machine (vasa), whereas it's much more fun to shop for fancy and sexy bike gear, even if the ROI is much higher for the vasa if you're a weak swimmer.

Well said LH!!! I think you have become the official ST "adult onset swimmer" (AOS) guru since you have demonstrated that, even in your 40s it IS possible to go from 2:15-20/100 scy down to 1:20-25/100 scy, which is a pretty huge drop for anyone at any age. You need your own sticky thread at the top called the "AOS Swim Guru" thread or similar.

Also, you need to contact the Vasa folks and ask for sponsorship:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Swimming 20k a week? I see all of this thrown around alot but I've never swum more than 10k a week and only once did I swim 4 times a week, mostly 3 times between 45-60 mins averaging about 8-9k. I've seen my times drop from around 1:50s in November when I started swimming to about 1:25s today. The only thing I felt I did "right" was: no lollygagging in the pool. I felt really unproductive if I went to the pool without a plan, or if I left the pool feeling fresh. I realise this is one of those n=1 things but still, just wanted to throw this out there. Don't worry, I realize 1:25 is not fast or anything, but I'm happy with the progress so far and I intend to get faster still ;)

IIRC, you are in The Netherlands, correct??? So you're prob swimming in a 25 m pool, i.e. scm??? If you've gone from 1:50/100 scm down to 1:25/100 scm for say 10 x 100 on 1:40 in the past 5 months, then your progress is much faster than the vast majority of ST-ers. You should start your own "how to learn to swim" thread:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Because people on this forum predominantly use scy i had already converted it to that so not quite as spectacular ;) I'd do 15x100 in 1:33 on 1:45or 10x200 in 3:08 with 20s rest. Could prob knock off a bit if only doing 10 100s. As for learning, i will say i read every swim thread thats posted here basically, and comments from guys like you or JasoninHalifax etc have helped enormously. And in the beginning I watched every Swimsmooth video, as well as jonnyo's tips, Gary Hall sr's Race club videos, etc. Except for the flip turning, ive not tried my luck at that :p Perhaps the biggest thing was that I started to enjoy myself swimming, and I couldnt wait for the next pool session, something I did not expect when i started.

I've gone from averaging 1:50s for ironman Wales last September to averaging 1:33 per 100m in a 2k set last week in the pool, I've done this through going from swimming 1x per week last winter up to 3x per week since November, I've done some drill work especially focussing on eve and spent quite a bit of time with paddles or flippers building both strength and feel, in that time I've improved by about 10seconds Per 100m over 400m.

What I've noticed is that the flippers have helped learn the feel of a proper leg kick, the paddles have built a tonne of power and the evf stuff has taught me how to catch the water, but it's only in the last couple of weeks that I've realised I'd started to over pull, and lose power as water slips past my hands, and actually slowing down my arms a bit has resulted in another step in in speed.

I was probably top 25% swimmer last year, but I was usually wrecked by the time I got out of the water, so the aim this year is too be a little faster but more to come out of the water and be I a better position to use my bike and run to get to the front of the pack!

There's a pretty big range of talent and response to training in swimming, I find.

While it's true that most MOPers seem to never improve in swimming, I've seen firsthand a few guys who with zero swim background, adult-onset with what I'd consider a half-baked approach to swim training (<8k/wk, rare hammerfests), swim faster than I do on race day and finish near the top of the AG on the swim. Like sub 1:20/100 pace in <8months of swimming literally from almost zero. Not altogether unexpected when you consider high school kids who are running 16 and even below on halfbaked run training well under 35mpw (and there are a lot of them.)

All I can say is that I'm definitely, absolutely NOT one of those lucky ones. My improvement curve was wayyyy slower than even the average MOPer, and it was NOT for lack of trying. I put it lots of of hours, studied tons of books and videos, and even got coaching early on, and it still took me 2 years to even swim a 1000 at faster than 1:55/100 pace in the pool. Even in retrospect, I would have been physically unable to do what I did with the Vasa back during those 2 years - my arms and shoulder would have been too weak to handle the volume that I did, and in particularly, I get a shoulder pain that seems to pop up even now if I pool swim over 3500 yds regularly. (Weirdly, it doesn't occur on the Vasa no matter how hard or long I go.)

But for sure, once I could crank up the volume, that made the biggest improvement bar none in my swimming, and that was from a well-established plateau for over a year. If your plateau is sub 1:20 pace, more power to you, but you'll know it when you get there on 8-10k/wk and suddenly hit a brick wall of not improving. And as said, the nice thing is that it seems you can do a block of big-volume, break through, and carry the gains over even when you cut back to 7-8k/wk or even less.

Thanks for the video link. That was good information for a newbie like me.

Well, you're definitely doing really well and it is espec cool that you are really enjoying your swim workouts. As I'm sure you've read on here, the vast majority of ST-ers seem to massively bored by swimming whereas as you've discovered, actually it can be very enjoyable. The feeling of riding high and strong in the water is pretty damn cool IMO. Also, as you improve, you'll find yourself able to keep up with some of the guys/girls you considered role models when you first started, which is super cool:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've found this video by Gary Hall Sr. helpful as to why you should swim freestyle this way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9oEj8nOffk

Ya, there are truly a huge range of abilities in the pool, prob more than on the run and way more than on the bike. I guess this is why the tri distances are as they are, i.e. everyone can ride the bike, most people can at least jog, but many people have a hard time with swimming, so therefore it is always by far the shortest.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Any idea what resistance bands to use? Looked at Dicks and they have everything from 10lb to 100... I have never used them before but looking to give it a try. Im not a fast swimmer, 1:45/100 and looking to increase volume and do some additional work at home. Any thoughts/advise appreciated.

I have no association with swimoutlet.com, StretchCordz, or Sheila Taormina, but the StretchCordz are the best way to go IMO. I've been using a pair of these with paddles since 2003 and they work great. For a 1:45/100 swimmer, I'd go with either the red or green versions. At $40, you can not find a better swim specific strength training tool. Just loop the end over a stationary object like a stair rail or closed- door handle and start pulling, but pay close attn to your form, being sure to pull w/ the bent high elbow. Get Sheila T's book if you need some pictures and guidance.

http://www.swimoutlet.com/strechcordz/

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for the recommendation, ill give them a try.

Maddog, you're welcome. Let us know how they work out for you.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This thread has exceeded expectations and has been a good help for me.

Something clicked last night when I was watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPrNv_G-YlQ

I identified that this was me, having a pause in the front of the stroke, essentially stalling out. It has taken me this long to figure it out because it is difficult to be "self-aware" in the pool while trying to focus on so many things.

This morning in my class, I implemented just focusing on a faster turnover rate and removing the pause (whilst keeping a solid pull). Needless to say, I was hitting 1:35-1:40 100yds, some sets hitting 1:31/100yds. My average over 2000 yards was 1:41, a personal best over that many yards (granted, it was split up and not consecutive).

I think if I continue to focus on this and strengthen my pull, I hope to be consistently in the 1:30 range, which for me, would be fantastic.

Small "wins" like this in the pool instill a great deal of confidence and I'm pumped I had this small breakthrough going into my first 70.3 this weekend. Thanks for all the help folks.

Ya, you don't want to "over-glide", that's a big no-no. I could only stand to watch the first 3 min of that 6 min video b/c it just looked so bad. I make it a point to only watch videos of outstanding swimmers as the videos of people swimming poorly just make me shudder. Anyway, stretch those arms out all the way but grab a hold of the water as soon as you can and pull back as hard as you can, accelerating your pull as your hand/forearm moves under your body. You want to feel the pressure of the water on your hand/forearm all the way through your pull. If you're pulling properly, at the finish of each pull you should be able to feel the water flowing down your thigh, past your knee, and even on the top of your shinbone.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."