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School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/
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Can't quite figure this out. I have a dumb trainer with no way to remotely control resistance level.

How would a program like Zwift or Trainerroad work with something like that? I can obviously increase/decrease my power with resistance level being constant, but wouldn't it just cause me to up my cadence? How would it work when the trainer program tells me to climb or descend - would the resistance have to increase/decrease to simulate that?

Many thanks.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Its up to you to change the resistance on your own. On my Road Machine, I have to increase cadence or shift up a gear.
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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The dumb trainer can't be controlled by the external program. I have a dumb trainer and use Zwift regularly. I have a power meter and it knows my weight. So, based on my W/kg, it calculates a speed for me based on the terrain (uphill, downhill, flat). Even if I keep chugging away at a steady speed at home, my avatar will speed up and slow down based on where I'm at on the island and the w/kg I'm producing.

"It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster" - Greg LeMond
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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You have to make the adjustment in your riding. The dumb trainer doesn't do it for you. So - Think of it this way - You are pedaling your bike on the trainer on the flats in zwift and you real MPH (bike computer) is 17 and your virtual mph (zwift) is 20. When you go up a zwift hill if you don't adjust your effort (17mph on trainer) your virtual MPH will drop to say 8 mph. But if you increase your real MPH/effort to say 20 mph then you will go up the virtual hill faster maybe a virtual 12mph climb. Your speed on the trainer and Island don't match but your effort in the real world impact your virtual speed.

Trainer road is similar. To ride at 150 watts it may be 15 mph on your trainer. When the target goes up to 250 watts you have to up your speed/power to match. This could be just raising cadence or shifting gears to increase speed/effort.

In both situations (Zwift or TR) you control the effort manually. Trainer road or zwift cannot force you to increase the effort. With a kickr/computrainer type trainer you have no choice. They will force a change in your effort to stay pedaling.

I use a power meter on a dumb trainer and this become pretty intuitive once you start riding. My body is so adjusted to the Zwift island topography that I instinctively shift, increase power, and lower my cadence on the climb. Nothing physically changed in my bike, PM, or trainer. I just naturally simulate the climb with my adjusted effort.

So something has to be "SMART" in the mix. Either you have to use your actions to control the resistence to match conditions (dumb trainer) or you can use a Smart trainer and then you can just ride and shift/adapt to what the trainer does.
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [cbs78] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you. This explains it perfectly.

So in other words, a smart trainer would enable me to ride Zwift/TR/etc the way I would in a real world - resistance goes up as the incline goes up and so on.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [cbs78] [ In reply to ]
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cbs78 wrote:
You have to make the adjustment in your riding. The dumb trainer doesn't do it for you. So - Think of it this way - You are pedaling your bike on the trainer on the flats in zwift and you real MPH (bike computer) is 17 and your virtual mph (zwift) is 20. When you go up a zwift hill if you don't adjust your effort (17mph on trainer) your virtual MPH will drop to say 8 mph. But if you increase your real MPH/effort to say 20 mph then you will go up the virtual hill faster maybe a virtual 12mph climb. Your speed on the trainer and Island don't match but your effort in the real world impact your virtual speed.

Trainer road is similar. To ride at 150 watts it may be 15 mph on your trainer. When the target goes up to 250 watts you have to up your speed/power to match. This could be just raising cadence or shifting gears to increase speed/effort.

In both situations (Zwift or TR) you control the effort manually. Trainer road or zwift cannot force you to increase the effort. With a kickr/computrainer type trainer you have no choice. They will force a change in your effort to stay pedaling.

I use a power meter on a dumb trainer and this become pretty intuitive once you start riding. My body is so adjusted to the Zwift island topography that I instinctively shift, increase power, and lower my cadence on the climb. Nothing physically changed in my bike, PM, or trainer. I just naturally simulate the climb with my adjusted effort.

So something has to be "SMART" in the mix. Either you have to use your actions to control the resistence to match conditions (dumb trainer) or you can use a Smart trainer and then you can just ride and shift/adapt to what the trainer does.

I really like this great explanation.

I am caught between buying a KK and a KICKR Snap, but if this is the difference (besides the KK requiring some sensors), I find it hard to justify, personally, an additional $500+ for the luxury of the software controlling the resistance for me.

After all, for me at least, the ultimate purpose is training, not indoor simulation realism.

I think I will pocket the $500 for other items and just adapt my actions to match the conditions.

- Ken
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [kfmfe04] [ In reply to ]
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kfmfe04 wrote:
I am caught between buying a KK and a KICKR Snap, but if this is the difference (besides the KK requiring some sensors), I find it hard to justify, personally, an additional $500+ for the luxury of the software controlling the resistance for me.

After all, for me at least, the ultimate purpose is training, not indoor simulation realism.

I think I will pocket the $500 for other items and just adapt my actions to match the conditions.

- Ken

For the most versatility, get a dumb trainer and power meter. Even though the resistance on the smart trainers changes, you adjust by shifting gears so power output and cadence remains similar. The only difference is the way you shift - on a dumb trainer if you want to increase power output, you shift into a harder gear. With a smart trainer, the resistance goes up so you shift to an easier gear. In the end, it's all power and weight.

The advantage of the dumb trainer/power meter combo is that it's a lot easier to get power on the road.

---
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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MonkeyClaw wrote:

For the most versatility, get a dumb trainer and power meter. Even though the resistance on the smart trainers changes, you adjust by shifting gears so power output and cadence remains similar. The only difference is the way you shift - on a dumb trainer if you want to increase power output, you shift into a harder gear. With a smart trainer, the resistance goes up so you shift to an easier gear. In the end, it's all power and weight.

The advantage of the dumb trainer/power meter combo is that it's a lot easier to get power on the road.


My initial thought was, I cannot afford $1k+ for a power meter, but then I checked DCR, http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/04/power-meter-pricing-wars.html, and it looks like there may be viable options out there.

I have used HRMs for training and racing on the run, but I don't know how a power meter is used during racing (I'm a total noob wrt power meters).

Do you use it to ensure you don't burn out for the run?

- Ken
Last edited by: kfmfe04: Aug 20, 15 2:47
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [kfmfe04] [ In reply to ]
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kfmfe04 wrote:
cbs78 wrote:
You have to make the adjustment in your riding. The dumb trainer doesn't do it for you. So - Think of it this way - You are pedaling your bike on the trainer on the flats in zwift and you real MPH (bike computer) is 17 and your virtual mph (zwift) is 20. When you go up a zwift hill if you don't adjust your effort (17mph on trainer) your virtual MPH will drop to say 8 mph. But if you increase your real MPH/effort to say 20 mph then you will go up the virtual hill faster maybe a virtual 12mph climb. Your speed on the trainer and Island don't match but your effort in the real world impact your virtual speed.

Trainer road is similar. To ride at 150 watts it may be 15 mph on your trainer. When the target goes up to 250 watts you have to up your speed/power to match. This could be just raising cadence or shifting gears to increase speed/effort.

In both situations (Zwift or TR) you control the effort manually. Trainer road or zwift cannot force you to increase the effort. With a kickr/computrainer type trainer you have no choice. They will force a change in your effort to stay pedaling.

I use a power meter on a dumb trainer and this become pretty intuitive once you start riding. My body is so adjusted to the Zwift island topography that I instinctively shift, increase power, and lower my cadence on the climb. Nothing physically changed in my bike, PM, or trainer. I just naturally simulate the climb with my adjusted effort.

So something has to be "SMART" in the mix. Either you have to use your actions to control the resistence to match conditions (dumb trainer) or you can use a Smart trainer and then you can just ride and shift/adapt to what the trainer does.


I really like this great explanation.

I am caught between buying a KK and a KICKR Snap, but if this is the difference (besides the KK requiring some sensors), I find it hard to justify, personally, an additional $500+ for the luxury of the software controlling the resistance for me.

After all, for me at least, the ultimate purpose is training, not indoor simulation realism.

I think I will pocket the $500 for other items and just adapt my actions to match the conditions.

- Ken
The killer feature for computerized trainers and training is erg mode. Sure, they can also do good hill simulations when doing simulated rides (well... the kickr has a couple serious bugs in that department), but in erg mode they force you to complete exactly the workout that TR/TdG/PerfPro is running by forcing the resistance to a level that requires X watts.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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This can be fairly big. My first experience with power was a smart trainer. Then I went PM/dumb and its harder to hold watts when it is just you. On the flipside I noticed I would come out of aero or stand up a lot more on efforts. On long rides it was great to just set it at 200 and go though. Same with the programmable workouts where you just do them instead of doing one or two 5 min efforts it will keep you honest. The trainer I had and the PM I got when it fried were WAY off each other on watts. The smart trainer was WAY higher on everything longer then 5 or 10 seconds.

I need to look into smart trainers that calibrate to a PM I guess or just get a good smart trainer that is accurate enough thats its an easy eyeball.
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
Thank you. This explains it perfectly.

So in other words, a smart trainer would enable me to ride Zwift/TR/etc the way I would in a real world - resistance goes up as the incline goes up and so on.

Or, another way to look at it is your virtual speed decreases when the virtual incline increases on a dumb trainer. It's up to you to adjust gearing and power output to affect your "pace". Just like the real world.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science
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Re: School me: how do programs like Zwift control the "dumb" trainers/ [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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MonkeyClaw wrote:
For the most versatility, get a dumb trainer and power meter. Even though the resistance on the smart trainers changes, you adjust by shifting gears so power output and cadence remains similar. The only difference is the way you shift - on a dumb trainer if you want to increase power output, you shift into a harder gear. With a smart trainer, the resistance goes up so you shift to an easier gear. In the end, it's all power and weight.

The advantage of the dumb trainer/power meter combo is that it's a lot easier to get power on the road.

I really like your suggestion.

However, if I can buy a KK or a TACX Vortex Smart for about the same price, I'm tempted to go for the Vortex, even given its lower upper power limit and the lack of a flywheel.

Either way, I will wait as long as I can to get a power meter, as prices seem to be on the verge of dropping. I will wait until a quality PM is available for about $300.
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