Cleat position may also be a factor. Almost middle of the sole.

They look very interesting. The mid-foot cleat positioning even more so, is there anyone else of note that's doing that in tri or cycling?

Iain

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The mid foot cleat position has been around for quite a long time. Not sure who of note is using it now but Susanne Ljungskog won a couple of cycling world titles on the road with that cleat position 10-15 years ago for example.

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I'm much more intrigued by her using a full custom shoe. In comparison to speed skaters, cyclists and triathletes seem to be really late to the party on custom shoes, so it's good to see possibly the best female long distance triathlete going that route: just seems smart. (Note: pretty sure I remember Tim DeBoom using LUST full custom shoes). I had the chance to speak to Dave Simmons recently and see his shoes in person. Very impressive and while I'm more interested in the idea of eliminating power robbing movement of the foot within the shoe and eliminating the potentially negative affects of that during-bike in-shoe foot movement when switching to the run, Simmons, like Cobb, is a big advocate of near-midfoot clear mounting

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milesthedog wrote:

I'm much more intrigued by her using a full custom shoe. In comparison to speed skaters, cyclists and triathletes seem to be really late to the party on custom shoes, so it's good to see possibly the best female long distance triathlete going that route: just seems smart. (Note: pretty sure I remember Tim DeBoom using LUST full custom shoes). I had the chance to speak to Dave Simmons recently and see his shoes in person. Very impressive and while I'm more interested in the idea of eliminating power robbing movement of the foot within the shoe and eliminating the potentially negative affects of that during-bike in-shoe foot movement when switching to the run, Simmons, like Cobb, is a big advocate of near-midfoot clear mounting

I have thought of this but these are the reasons why there is almost no impact of special shoes in cycling:

1. You don't need to balance while applying power
2. Your feet are locked into the pedals....you don't need to control where they go
3. You can put exactly the same amount of power to the pedals with running shoes on duathlon transition pedals

Bottom line, specialty shoes are a bit of a red herring from the perspective of apply power. As long as shoes fit, you're going to get the power out to the pedals. Now mid foot vs on toe cleat position, you could say that is the diff between speed skating with traditional heel locked skates vs clap. But in skating you get to complete the stride with a slightly greater motion with the clap skates. In cycling, that's not really an issue, so I can't see mid foot cleat placement helping power that much, but I can see it saving some glycogen storage and fatigue in the calves etc for the run. My guess is that this would be the biggest benefit.

not power per pedal stroke, but over time due to the arch flexing and slightly collapsing each pedal stroke, which leads to knee and hip misalignment with each pedal stroke. With custom inserts, I personally experience significantly less discomfort when cycling in terms of discomfort in the foot arch, knee and hip and I can bike longer with no thought as to discomfort. I going to imagine full custom shoes will increase that comfort and potentially power over time even more so.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3671312

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Even a good plastic sole in a cheaper cycling shoe is still pretty stiff. I don't see this as an issue. It acts as a spring, so there's virtually no loss of power.

But yes, you have to be comfortable, but I've also had some pretty poor shoe fit and put down plenty of power for 5 hour and ran fine after.

However, I've used mid cleat position for over a year now since I had some Achilles issues due to running.

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Was referring to the plantar fascia collapsing slightly (as is natural) inside the shoe with each pedal stroke, which, despite the stiffness of the shoe sole, causes the knee and hip alignment to change with each pedal stroke, and can lead to a higher amojnt of pressure on the ball of the foot due to the shoe not contacting the bottom of the foot over the foot's entire length

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Kevin Taddonio is (was) using midsole cleats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ASGNjl0TM

And, I think Daniela's shoes may be Biomac.

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+1. I used to have calve cramps/fatigue when going for a run almost immediately after doing a long bike. By switching to more of a mid-foot cleat position (via speedplay), this was remedied almost immediately. I'll hopefully have shoes in about a month that will let me go even farther back (Riivo).

Helped me with numb toes, too.

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I don't think Biomac has ever done full, 100% carbon shoes. Definitely look more like the Hanseeno creations.

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From biomxc2 ?

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2015/02/news/whats-daniela-ryfs-ballet-bike-shoes_112927

Thanks for that close up: definitely look like biomac shoes.

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I am leaning towards taking back some of my statements I made on this thread in 2015. I am starting to see the benefit of taking the calf and arch out of the picture and I was actually thinking about XC skiing skate style where you apply almost all the power from the heel to the mid foot. The toe only comes into play on steep uphill and just marginally finishing the motion. But the core of the force application comes from the prime movers and when the glute, quads and hamstrings are engaged, it's all mid foot phase....the calf only comes into play for controlling the toes finishing the stroke, and keeping balance....per my post in 2015, on the bike there is no need to use the toes to keep balance, so you can basically get rid of theme from the equation. Kind of like swimming with paddles, your fingers do nothing....your lats and shoulders apply the power and your forearm does almost nothing to control the hands. You're basically just connecting with the heel of your hand to the middle of the palm since the hard surface of the paddle means the fingers can be more "floppy" than using your fingers actively when the paddles are gone. With a mid foot cleat design, you have a hard surface from heel to mid foot (kind of like a paddle) and you are connected nicely to the prime movers....no need for the calf to stabilize ball of foot and toes.

In line with the above, I have been experimenting on my spin bike with running shoes going back and forth. I will ride with my running shoes in the toe clips and then move the saddle forward 3 cm and then flip the pedals over and ride mid foot with no toe strap and I swear the latter feels more natural, in that it is more like the foot position when all of us learned to ride bike as 4 year olds.

Either kids gravitate towards mid foot because they can't control their ball of foot to forefoot ride when learning how to ride bikes, or we humans prefer mid foot as the more natural approach, self selecting the orientation where the prime movers are best utilized.

At this point, I don't have any power readings though.

To compliment the above, some of you know I have had nerve related difficulties riding in normal bike shoes and have been riding my road and tri bike with platform pedals with toe clips and running shoes. A rough calculation is that I am 3.5 cm further over the pedal axle in this set up than with Shimano SPD pedals. As a point of reference, SPD Mountain bike pedals have their holes typically drilled 2 cm further to the rear than SPD. I believe the reason 3 hole is so "TOE FORWARD" is simply the limitation on where you can put the holes on the shoe assuming the silly carbon shoe shape that artificially tapers in at the arch (I don't know why this is done, but is screws up the 3 hole placement driving it very much "forward").

I am just about to go down to the basement and drill some old Specialized Tri vents to install some SPD mountain bike cleats mid foot and hopeful that by having the cleat really far back from my metatarsels, the pressure that activates my nerve related spasms can be avoided. I am hopeful that taking out the calf and the Tibialis Anterior to some degree can reduce the nerve hyperactivity

But now I am intrigues by Daniela's "sandal" shoes. I think eventually what I will want is a flat carbon sole mid foot 3 hole cleat placement, wide stance width and an upper that is like an old nike sock racer:

Funny you should post about this. I too, am having nerve-related trouble that may be helped by this experiment. And I also have an old pair of Specialized Tri-vents that I may be getting repurposed.

My one concern, which was mentioned in Kevin Taddonio's video in the last minute, was toe overlap. On my too-large 700c road bike, this is a sure recipe for disaster. On my 650c tri bike, there is more room for error.

Anything that minimizes severe pain is worth investigating because it is the biggest limiter as I approach my sixth decade. Thanks for posting!

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Toe overlap is only an issue turning at low speed and pedaling. If you turn at low speed and don't pedal, your feet can't hit the wheel. It is totally impossible. So you should be OK. I drilled the trivents today, one set of holes 14 cm up from the heel at exactly mid foot (sole is 28 cm) and the other set at 16 cm. To put it in perspective, the furthest back the three hole cleat can be positioned on the trivent (which is already a reasonably rearward shoe) is 18.5 cm. At 18.5 cm the mid point between my first and fifth metatarsel head (which is at 17 cm) is 1.5 cm behind the spindle. So the 16 cm holes put me 1.5 cm in front of the spindle and the the 14 cm option puts me 3.5 cm in front of the spindle. I have a feeling I will end up with another set of holes around 15.25 cm from the heel.

I have not had much time to play around and actually ride so far. Just did the surgery to the shoes and mounted with mountain bike SPD cleats per Kevin T;s video. The Trivent is actually a pretty good shoe to drill since the cleat placement area does not have any funky taper or reduced width like some shoes do. The only downside is the Specialized Varus canting if you want to go totally neutral.