The flying Scotsman movie is free on Netflix if no one has seen btw...

Trev, I think I am on board with your inquiry. Unfortunately, I dont know how much I can add. Several folks are trashing his breathing methods. These folks seem to know what they are talking about when it comes to respiration however, I dont think they are asking the proper question. 'Why does he have to breath in this manner?' seems to be a good starting point. Obree was usually tucked in some unusual ways wasnt he? Different than current riders(because his methods are currently UCI illegal). With his unusual riding style, those normal lab tested respiratory numbers go out the window. Those normal lab tested respiratory values are for a fully functioning, unrestricted chest cavity and diaphragm. So if you have someone working very hard and their physiology is trained to handle the load but the chest cavity and diphragm function is compromised....then yes....breathing becomes your limiter(more specifically o2 consumption and co2 expulsion). Obree probably couldnt take a normal full breath for every respiration, if he took too many fast and shallow breaths.....well then he starts to hyperventilate. So, to me, Obree found a way to breath that works with his unique aerodynamic body position. His technique would be 'not good' for normal riding styles.

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"WHEW...I really regret that workout!"..............Noone

I'm a former member of GO's club, Fullarton Wheelers. I can tell you that having grown up in Scotland and lived in Ayrshire (very close to him in fact) that turbo training is a lifesaver in Scottish weather...and not just in winter. We moved back from NZ for 2 years and it basically rained for 7 months. Thankfully we are now back in NZ and I can ride outside just about every day of the year, or as long as I can stand the insane winds. A lot of people follow his advice back home; he is also quite involved in the community and runs a couple of sportives each year in the "Ayrshire Alps". Well worthwhile if you happen to be on the west coast of Scotland :-)

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when i see amateur guys spending upwards of $200 a month on convoluted training programs I want to shake them. Buy Coggan's book, ride lots, and do very hard intervals twice a week. One guy told me his goal with his coach was to get to 120 CTL. LOL

So a different method of breathing with make your mind at ease, making you able to sustain higher power. All this without any changes to what is happening in the muscles...right, quite likely

Maybe I should start another review thread (or you should :D), while Coggan's book was interesting and definitely some very unique bits of information in them, there is very little that 'stuck' to my mind a year after reading it in terms of practical training advice - maybe because I am using trainerroad and don't need to design my own intervals sets from the ground up. If you're a total/near beginner Obree has better practical advice. Get Coggan if you already know what you are doing and want to go up 'a gear' in your approach/training.

Obree points out that the difference between good kit and the best kit make very little difference at club level and one should value his commitment by the intensity of training and not buying very expensive gear (cui bono - same for supplements). That's obviously the opposite of what the industry is built on.

For most people, I'm prepared to bet you could skip the book as well :)

Or get most of the same info here for free.....


https://home.trainingpeaks.com/...p;searchmode=anyword

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Yes. Completely bonkers...unless you think of it more as a "distraction technique" than any sort of actual breathing enhancement ;-)

Obree is quite the interesting character. That much is for certain.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"That involves techniques to regulate her breathing,"

BBC Article about Sara Story and an hour attempt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...t/0/cycling/31660079

I know the science says the lungs are not the limiting factor but, when your breathing falls apart, the result is you have to slow down.

I'm not disputing any science here, but the feeling of being out of breath, puffed out gasping for air is extremely debilitating. Something is causing the athlete to feel he or she must breathe more often and deeper. It's all very well telling an athlete they are not puffed out and he is in fact getting plenty of oxygen, but that won't stop him slowing down when he gets puffed out.

If a breathing technique enables an athlete to sustain a higher power longer, or the same power longer, then it is worth consideration.

Breathing is also about exhaling carbon dioxide. Part of good breathing technique is exhaling.

I dont want to say that your feelings are wrong, trev. Any feelings someone experiances are real. But for fatigue, your brain comes up with whatever method works to make you go slower when it notices that reduced speed is necessary to ensrue that homoestasis is not disrupted.

Human respiration is very interesting. When metabolites accumulate in the blood sensory nerves notice this. These nerves are connected right into the breathing center in Medulla Oblongata, the brain stem. When metabolites accumulate (co2, bicarbonate, protons, etc) these sensory nerves make the breathing center fire off breathing signals way more frequent. When you go very very hard this can go crazy and you might even hyperventilate. But breathing is also controlled by somatic nervous innervation to the breathing muscles: diaphragm, abdominal wall, internal and external intercostals, Mm. Scalenii etc. This means that we can control our breathing consciously. Useful while swimming. I bet you are very aware of your own breathing right now (crazy annoying when studying respiration physiology). Eventually the brain stem will win and fire off action potentials so strongly that we will inhale, even under water.

While there is almost never an issue to exchange gases in a quantity enough to ensure oxygen supply and co2 exhaust, controlled breathing can work through an expectation effect as well as a great distraction. So not saying that it doesnt work to improve performance, just that it will not make your respiration work more effeciantly and improve your perfomance due to more oxygenated blood reaching working muscles. For that you need a higher capillary density, a bigger stroke volume and more red blood cells, which is peripheral, central and semi-central effects. You need to train a lot and eat your spinach pretty much.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

There is no disagreement from me here with anything you have said.

No matter how fit or how well trained, if you push yourself beyond certain limits, then, as you describe, the brain finds ways of making you slow down. With some the pain from the legs becomes unbearable before the pain from what we perceive is the lungs becomes unbearable.

Breathing techniques may well be no more than a way of making a given pain or discomfort more bearable.

When someone makes an all out effort, they are, by definition, pushing the boundaries of their fitness. So doing an all out effort over 60 minutes, the training has been done, you can't magically summon up more capillaries, improve stroke volume, or increase your red blood cell count. All you can do is find ways of maintaining a given power longer. It becomes a case of mind over matter. Or conscious brain over brain stem.

If breathing techniques can allow someone to supress the pain and maintain a given power output longer, then the technique is valid.

Obree may have come up with such a technique. His description of how it works would appear to be wrong.

My own little theory is that breathing techniques can trick the central governor, or the unconcious brain, or brain stem into lessening the pain signals.

You may well be right in that breathing techniques are no more than a distraction.

Sorry I missed your post until now.

You make a good point. The most aero TT positions, legal or not, probably restrict breathing. Is this restriction enough to cause a genuine factual lack of O2 into the lungs or does the position just cause the brain stem to fire more signals. The brain stem is probably saying, "for fuck sake sit up and allow us to breathe better", but the conscious brain knows that the position is more aero and is worth the discomfort.

Obree's breathing technique may well be a way of coping with a very extreme position.

That is a super interesting point. If one is given air with 50% more oxygen, 30-35% instead of 21%, improvemt is immidiate and drastic. Since respiration is not a limiter, why can this be? There answer might lie (not even a crazy guess) is that breathing frequency is a big part of the central governors way to determine fatigue. Breathing frequency is lower when breathing hyperoxic air. Maybe an actual exercise physiologist (I'm a physiotherapy student, albeit with an obvious and sometimes a bit too high interest in exercise physiology).

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Did you read the Biography on Obree?
You know (of course) that he was a nutter?

Your point being ... he suffered from depression, therefore he does not know how to train ? Did I get this right ?

Suffered from depression along with many other things.
I am not trying to take away anything from him as an athlete.
As others have mentioned, he was a top pursuiter and hour record rider- not just an aero junkie.
But he was nuttier than a shithouse rat. If you want to follow his training advice, go for it-

There is a difference between respiration and ventilation. The maximum blood O2 concentration is dependent on the O2 concentration in the air, as it is a diffusion process which cannot go past equilibrium. So shovelling extreme quantities of low O2 air through the lungs will never reach the same blood O2 levels as as lesser volume of air at higher O2 concentration. The other parts of the process are transporting that blood to the muscles, and using the O2 once there, also the return journey to dispose of CO2.

Of course. But in normal circumstances, ie nothing pathological is going on, breathing is unrestricted and pO2 is at 160mmHg, hemoglobin is saturated very quickly in the lungs. Deoxyhemoglobin is more prone to bind to oxygen and the alveoli distributes a deep breath (say 2-3L) over 80-100 square meters. Diffusion is pretty immidiate, under normal circumstances. Look at this normal oxygen association curve:


It is those "other parts of the process" that is relevant for healthy persons at sea level.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede