Not to be flip - but if you want to run well off the bike, run more and run often.

If you leave yourself trashed, with a long, hard ride, you are not going to get much running in.

I do, I'm no stranger to 50mi weeks during IM training. I just want to hold a solid pace longer on the run and I don't think running more will get me there.

Both, but at different times of the year.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

desert dude, which ride do you suggest for which part of the training year?

Desert Dude, I have frequented your website many times, finger almost ready to fill out a request for more info.
I probably need a coach, I seem to get stuck every year wearing myself down and doing the same pace for all training.

This year I'm trying to "polarize" for lack of a better definition.

1. Build your FTP as high as you can (lots of ways to skin this cat)
2. Increase long ride duration to match energy demands, conditions, and nutritional intake of target race.

There is no real need to ever do an over-distance ride.

Skip the 5 plus hour rides and do some more quality 3:30 to 4 hour rides. Throw in extended intervals above 80% FTP.

Most importantly, go kill short workouts and raise your ceiling. FTP work is where you are going to gain that time. Too many people think going long is going to make them fast. Not true.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

"Biking can help your running, but running won't help your biking"

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29 years and counting

Did Leadville 100 in ~10 hours.Two weeks latter did IMLou in ~5:30. Biked over 4 hours 1-2 times. Quality + Constancy > Quantity

Lots of good stuff from everyone,
so at this point I am thinking lots of interval, hard steady state rides maybe topping off in the 4 -4.5 hr range during peak. Add one or two rides around 5.5hr near the end of peak training to more or less build butt endurance.



I always train consistently, probably a negative for me since I don't take a rest day or easy day if my body needs it, I just follow plan.

Based on your last comment I would get a coach. It sounds like you may need someone to reel you in.

I think there are pros and cons to both as an experienced IM'er. The long ride at an easy steady effort trains your body to consume more fat energy rather than your short sugar supply. I'm not a nutritionist so I'm sure someone could explain that better than me. It also takes a looong time to get anything meaningful out of them for IM distance training, but recovery should be a little easier. The harder rides also help increase FTP and make you faster. The duration is shorter for each of the workouts too but I feel like you can bring on fatigue a lot faster.

I like to look at it at a TSS level. If your IM bike is going to be ~300 TSS, then try to pin down some workouts in that range. Use your past IM bike splits as an target range you will be hitting. If it were me, and I'm not a certified coach, I would focus on long steady efforts during base and beginning part of your build. Might not hurt to do at least 1 short, hard bike effort every week during this phase. Then roughly between 10-5 weeks out, begin to mix in harder efforts and intervals during your long ride. Might help bring up your TSS score, not keep you out riding for 6.5-7hrs, but also give you a meaningful workout that doesn't trash you afterward. Then just peak and taper for the race.

You're likely to be doing a lot of walking if you flight plan for a 400 TSS IM bike ride.

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I often read this, but I always have the same questions. If one of the biggest factors due to slowing AG bike times is bike position (sitting up out of aero, fidgeting, etc) wouldn't saddle time at or around IM bike goal time help develop comfort to maintain optimal position for the entire bike leg? What use is it riding a 5:00 IM pace for 105 miles if the last 7 you can't hold an aero position?

If you don't mix in enough 5+ hour rides, how can you remain in and somewhat comfortable in your race position?

Not trolling...curious.

It's often not those "key" workouts that are critical. It's the timing of them, what you do before and after them, and all the other rides in between.


Build your training from less specific to more specific. On long course, you don't get "faster" during the last build periods. You adapt yourself to sustain speed for a longer duration. So mixing in long paced rides with longer tempo rides is a great option.

So early season, you build a bigger engine, then later you refine it to create the best adaptations for you race distance.

So, more simply put. Increase FTP and improve run threshold pace now. Then focus on longer sustained efforts later... while also doing some small amount of higher intensity work in later training blocks.

Rather than a 6+ hour ride, try a 5 hours IM paced ride, then put in 30 minutes sustained at 85%. Of do a 4 hour ride at 80% with a couple 90% efforts in there.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

400tss... u walking from mile 1 lol

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

The whole position adjustment thing is important and is where you would want to add in a longer "race simulation" ride. So yes, ultimately that could be beneficial.

From the training standpoint, those super long efforts often just prove to be a waste of time and drill you into an unneeded hole.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

...good point and I mistyped. 300 is a little better.

300 is still a lot.

That is a very personal matter and some athlete will react very well to a intensity approach/some to volume. I do have a few low/sub3h off the bike athlete that swear by the overdistance ride approach. I have no issue putting 6-7h in the program when needed.

As a general rule, if a athlete as a lot of time on hand....summer off, (teacher, dentist !...etc) some over distance can fit really well in a training program at the right time in the season.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

u want to be as close as u can to 200 maybe 250 if you are a proven runner but 300... ufff u will walk

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Staying aero should not be something difficult if you are properly position. it might be a fit issue. Once a rider is properly position, it should be relatively comfortable and the training is fitness oriented more than to ''hold the position''

The over long ride are a way for some athletes to get extra time of training with very low risk on injury. It as to be done properly at the right time but it does help many athletes breakthrough in there riding/plateau etc. It can also serve as a powerful pacing lesson.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram