This all sounds great but if it really produces a less friction BB then some one need to be making and selling these.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

I like data.

Could you run a test of the bearings installed, in a frame, under a range of loads, and after being loaded similarly to a 1, 2, 5 or 6 hours event in a range of temperatures.

Spinning a bearing freely with no load, gives very little indication of the actual drag when loaded, installed, under a range of normal operating conditions.

I'd also like to know what happens after you ride in the rain, or a bicycle is moved in and out from a warm humid to cool dry environment repeatedly (winter riding)

As mentioned above, you may be ignoring one the the functions of grease. It protects the steel components from moisture, transfers heat, reduces the redeposit of metal onto the race as it wears.... all while reducing friction.

A more simple test would be to install one of these bearings in a pro bike that used in all conditions. Then re-test it at the end of the season without any servicing. A good BB bearing should be able to survive 20k+ miles untouched over several seasons.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Stop asking questions, and just believe!

Just for the record- this did not get by everyone in the same way it got by the OP.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

DAMN!!!

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Ah, ok. So a short burst dirt track event extrapolates so well to riders going anywhere from 1-8 hours under all sorts of adverse conditions.

So lets see, completely rip apart the BB, buy new bearings, go through a convoluted cleaning of the new bearings and then grease them, dremel treat them, press them in and wala! You have gained .5 watts!

Btw, I can generate anywhere from 700-1000 watts for short burst efforts such as a BMX start, I'm sure the true BMX'ers are putting me to shame.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

My prediction: OP registered on Dec 10, and will unregister before 2014 is over..........

I don't have a lot of experience in Mountain or Road biking. My son races BMX and since my background is engineering, I've always worked with his teams cosponsors to help them improve their hubs, bottom brackets and a few other components for BMX racing. There's so much downtime between Motos, it's the only way I've been able to maintain my sanity at big National races. We used this dry film lubricant on several different teams Factory Rider's bikes. They may only race a sub minute Moto, but my son, like most expert riders, spends at least 2 hours a day doing gates and first straight. If the weather won't allow, he's on a trainer for 2 hours straight. The whole reason I joined this forum was because I ran the bearings for the riders that won first and second after the completion of the 3rd Coast Loaded Enduro Series this past year. They were sponsered by the same local bike shop that trues my sons wheels. After they felt his wheels, they asked if I would do their personal mountain and road bikes. Both had Industry Nine hubs and ZIPP hubs. After I refitted their wheelsets and bottom brackets with dry film lubricant bearings, they suggested I get on a forum and share the technology since I don't have the time to venture out of BMX, due to my workload. There's a few things Id like to share. Since my original post, I looked up several of the Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) websites. Now, they lead you to believe that WS2 must be impinged, applied with heat or in a vacuum. That's simply a way to get you to send them your bearings. A year ago, or so, all of those same websites sold raw WS2. I guess they figured out that if they make you believe that WS2 must be applied in some proprietary method they could make more money. That's a bunch of PHOOEY! WS2 has such a strong affinity for any metal, it simply needs to be brushed on. You can even brush your ratchet ring, assuming you have a cassette, to reduce drag. The only Dry Film Lubricant that is actually required to be impinged is Moly Disulfide. I also noticed "Derby Dust" has changed their mixture to include Graphite. You don't want that. The only reasonably priced source of WS2 I located was IMPEX out of Canada. They sell a sample bag that is large enough to last a team of riders forever. I've used IMPEX WS2 and it's good stuff. The whole key is to get the bearings coated and then moving quickly, even if it's only between your fingers. I didn't invent this whole WS2 treatment. It's used in Formula 1 bearings every time they hit the track. My college roommate works in F1 and introduced me to Dry Film Lubricants. This year one of the F1 teams ran a gearbox treated with WS2 and only enough fluid for cooling. Whether certain naysayers on this forum want to believe it or not, this technology will be in our automobiles, sooner than later. WS2 has the lowest drag coefficent of any solid in the World. Once applied, only diamond and Saphire are harder. Wether you realize it or not, you're already using a similar Vapor Deposition technoly if you use a Ti Nitride coated chain. Believe me, I don't have the time to waste, to make something up out of thin air. In BMX, we generally get 4-5 years out of our bearings. When cornering hard, a rider may feel a "tick" after several years on a bearing. That "tick" is the interior race starting to fail. That's when I replace every bearing on the bike. Enduro ABEC 3 bearings costs peanuts. The process is cheap, a little time consuming if you have multiple bikes, but it's well worth it. If you do have good quality hybrid ceramics you can use the same process so you don't pit your stainless races. If you have full on ceramics, like some of my team riders that don't want to switch because of their investment in their bearings, I have a solution for that as well. Pull your bearings, thoroughly clean every bit of grease out of them. Then order a syringe of Finish Line Flouro Carbon and apply it to the interior surfaces of the bearing. Chances are, you won't get Dry Film Lubricant performance but it's pretty close. I think I've shared all I can on this Forum. Apparently, y'all get bombarded with "snake oil" salesman, or the level of skepticism wouldn't be so high. I'm going back to my little BMX world, now. Usually there people are happy if you give them help. I wish you Slow Twitch Triathelites nothing but the best of luck and a great holiday season. I hope my post has helped at least one person. If you don't try the Dry Film Lube bearings, it's really not that big of a deal, because they'll most likely be O.E. in premium wheelsets within a few years. God Bless!!!

A few points I would like to make:

1. The difference between the worst vs the best BB in terms of friction loss is 1 watt (1.3 watts vs 0.29 watts). So, even if you make things better than the best BB out there, You may be saving about 1 watt max.
2. Just because people ask questions and are skeptical, doesn't mean we are not open minded and are interested in help. But on this forum, many want numbers. We are used to dealing in numbers.
3. The recommendation you have provided, ignores corrosion and wet environments. Dry film lubes are usually used for dry environments like vacuum apparatus. There is no protection against corrosion in case of wetting. Bikes get ridden in the rain. Water will enter the bearings. Grease is there to lubricate, cool and provide a moisture barrier to prevent corrosion.

So, don't take it personally. But please, if you provide technical recommendations to others, be prepared to be challenged on the basis and data to support it. If you really are an engineer, you are used to that, and accept it as part of the peer process.............

Nice tweak/work. Took a couple of reads to follow. I have a BB that needs work now.

I also designed plastic bearing sleeves for Porsche driveshafts (6006 bearing). A plastic sleeve is used to take up space, allow a secure /assembly friendly press fit.

My guess is that in a crank there will be deformation under load no question, if it is a cheap plastic. Carbon rebounds, plastic does not. = energy loss in conversion to heat/wear.

Also grease is obviously very viscous, and the dry lube seems like a great application. The cost of the mod is in the time taken to do the work ie this is a high end tweak. And innovation in production parts happen much more slowly, so to adopt a dry lube process would take some time.


Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) or Tungsten Disulphide is an extremely slick, dry film lubricant coating. WS2 has an extremely low coefficient of friction of 0.03 -- lower than that of Teflon, Graphite, or Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2). The film is remarkably durable compared to many other lubricant materials and can withstand tremendously high loads of over 300,000 psi! WS2 has unsurpassed performance properties for lubricity, non-stick, low drag, wear life, and load rating.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Or send $100 to Phil Wood and get one of their square spindle BBs. Then call me in 12 years and and tell me how it is doing. Between them and Chris King HSs are no brainers. I have a couple Phils BBs that have to be getting close to 20 years old and are still smooth as the day I got them. (or maybe more as Phils are sometimes stiff when you get them) I used to mess around with loose balls and various lubricants for BBs, I thought I was doing something at the time, but what a complete waste of time that was.

Or get an SKF Isis bottom bracket and a cheap Isis crank out of the LBS parts bin, and come back in 100,000 km. SKF square taper have similarly longevity

Jan Heine stocks them in the US. Compass cycles.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX

I just pulled my chain on the commuter bike (Devinci TT Frame). It actually had a stiff bearing but I injected lube a while back.

Anyway, the force to overcome crank bearing "friction" is about 6 grams on the pedal. I just dropped a toonie coin on the pedal.

So here's some funky math: compared to an average pedal down-stroke at say 5 kg (5000 grams) ?? we are looking at 6/5000 = 0.1% loss

or 10-20 seconds over a full distance. There seems to be a lot more loss in the chain system than the BB..

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

That's a good BB. I've measured one that took several allen keys and some coins to get it to start moving.

Tip: lay the weight gently to avoid the shock load of dropping it.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Static friction is so over-rated :)

Just to add another experience:
A couple of years ago I mounted an XT BB on my training bike.
I remember it turned very stiffly.
I had a look now again and it keeps on turning now after a push with the hand more than 10 times (without the chain).

So yes a freshly greased BB needs some time.

Yep. Wish there were an easier way to measure BB friction.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

bearings do break in for sure.

For the record I juiced my BB with LPS#2 and spray lubricant/penetrant that puts "retail" WD-40 to shame. LPS is industrial spec stuff that is pretty amazing. Great for rain and as a longer term solution. (WD40 will strip/dry out grease). My BB was really seized up would not spin at all, so I was surprised how good it is.

My chain is a bit of a mess then, I've done some heavy km's 3 hours /day on the bike in winter conditions for the past couple of weeks, so things are pretty gunked up

Going to look into chain optimization per friction-facts.com for my new race bike build this spring.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Just did this and turned out great! thanks for the tip. Would have never thought of it. Definately worth the time and effort.... barely cost anything. So amazing to see the crank spin so many times...

Where did you get the Bearings from? I'm only seeing ceramic versions when I google Enduro MR 2437 LLB C3.

I just bought a new bottom bracket from wheels manufacturing since the shimano pf86 is eh. I also used the ceramic bearings but have some regular steel bearings in case anything goes wrong.

Just ordered some from here