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Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
Why was he wearing cycling shoes (maybe even with cleats still attached) while on the platform pedals (4:40 in the video)? That likely accounts much of the "weird and jerky" feeling he describes, no? Don't most people riding on platform pedals ride in flat-bottomed shoes?
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [MichaelT]
[ In reply to ]
MichaelT wrote:
Why was he wearing cycling shoes (maybe even with cleats still attached) while on the platform pedals (4:40 in the video)? That likely accounts much of the "weird and jerky" feeling he describes, no?They were mountain bike shoes with grippy pads, not cleats. If he wore running shoes, they would flex. Those shoes had a stiff sole.
MichaelT wrote:
Don't most people riding on platform pedals ride in flat-bottomed shoes?They were not trying to compare flat vs. clipped. They wanted to isolate full circle vs. down only. Therefore, it did not matter how most people ride platforms.
(I was a bit puzzled by all that at first as well.)
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
jackmott wrote:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535Thanks Jack very interesting video.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
more on this topic:
https://www.academia.edu/...ol_1988_64_2622-2630
shoe cleats. The blood lactate, heart rate, perceived ex-
ertion, and ventilatory responses to three cycling inten-
sities ranging between 60 and 90% of V02max were not
different when pedaling with toe clips and shoe cleats as
opposed to when cycling with a standard rubber pedal
while wearing general athletic shoes. 60, max was also not
different under the two conditions. All 14 subjects were
evaluated. "
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
https://www.academia.edu/...ol_1988_64_2622-2630
Quote:
"Responses while cycling with and without toe clips and shoe cleats. The blood lactate, heart rate, perceived ex-
ertion, and ventilatory responses to three cycling inten-
sities ranging between 60 and 90% of V02max were not
different when pedaling with toe clips and shoe cleats as
opposed to when cycling with a standard rubber pedal
while wearing general athletic shoes. 60, max was also not
different under the two conditions. All 14 subjects were
evaluated. "
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
If only there were a device that enabled you to practice pulling up on the upstroke--then, I'm sure there would be a difference...
Seriously, anyone who's ever forgotten his shoes going to a bike race knows this already. My highest recorded 5 minute power came in a pair of borrowed Vans and some pedals I stole off of some girl's mountain bike.
As far as the hypothesis at the end--"well, in a steady state test it may not matter, but for high-powered efforts it's a different story", the answer is, of course--"not really"... Some of the highest recorded powers (and the highest I've ever seen personally) were by BMX guys on flats with street shoes. That doesn't mean folks aren't unweighting the opposite leg (they are)--they're just not "pulling up". The sensation the guy described is exactly what it felt like for me as well, like my feet were almost ready to come off the pedal on the upstroke (but they didn't).
Seriously, anyone who's ever forgotten his shoes going to a bike race knows this already. My highest recorded 5 minute power came in a pair of borrowed Vans and some pedals I stole off of some girl's mountain bike.
As far as the hypothesis at the end--"well, in a steady state test it may not matter, but for high-powered efforts it's a different story", the answer is, of course--"not really"... Some of the highest recorded powers (and the highest I've ever seen personally) were by BMX guys on flats with street shoes. That doesn't mean folks aren't unweighting the opposite leg (they are)--they're just not "pulling up". The sensation the guy described is exactly what it felt like for me as well, like my feet were almost ready to come off the pedal on the upstroke (but they didn't).
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
I've long advocated flat pedals for sprints. Get very fast transitions with no loss of speed that I can tell. Testing on my trainer shows no difference between clip-on and flat pedals for perceived effort or HR for a given power. The extensions off the rear of the pedal help reduce flexing when using racing flats.
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Remember Luddites are people too...
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Remember Luddites are people too...
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [tdstegner]
[ In reply to ]
we have enough people on ST we can gather better data than n=1. Do a 5 min all out power test on the trainer having bike shoes clipless, rest 20 min and do it flat pedaled with regular run shoes... report back to use differences.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
synthetic wrote:
we have enough people on ST we can gather better data than n=1. Do a 5 min all out power test on the trainer having bike shoes clipless, rest 20 min and do it flat pedaled with regular run shoes... report back to use differences.See post #5
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
synthetic wrote:
we have enough people on ST we can gather better data than n=1. Do a 5 min all out power test on the trainer having bike shoes clipless, rest 20 min and do it flat pedaled with regular run shoes... report back to use differences.Add my N equals 1 info. I have ridden on my computrainer in running shoes with Thompson platform pedals (the kind the duathletes use) and I had zero loss in my 40-60 min power.
Also two hears ago I started riding on my spin bike at home for several rides per week with some floppy Skora running shoes. At first I noted pain in my arches and I had problems for years with plantr fasciatis. It was a real revelation that my arches were that sore after 10-20 min of spinning without support, so I decided I needed to keep riding that way to strengthen them (I could ride my bike all over town as a kid with no arch pain)....now arch pain gone and plantar fascia related issues also gone. I think the "sole" stiffness angle is a red herring....the forces from pedaling are so low that a stiff shoe should not be needed to transmit power....a healthy human arch should be more that sufficient to transmit all the power from further up the muscle chain from the hip to the foot. A stiff sole is nice to have but it's really a bit of a crutch.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
People worry about weight less these days but some pedal cleat shoe systems are very heavy compared to a very lightweight shoe and a quill pedal. It's revolving weight too.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
But, don't forget about powercranks ...
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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [tdstegner]
[ In reply to ]
Tell me more about the heel platforms on your pedals. Very interesting. Thanks. David K
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [DavidK]
[ In reply to ]
One advantage I have found in using flat pedals is I'm able to move my foot backwards or forwards on the pedal.
Moving the foot backwards or forwards a little tends to relieve fatigue in the muscles. I find I tend to move the foot further forwards for lower cadence higher force pedalling and further back for high cadence lower force pedalling.
During long intervals at a steady power / cadence moving the foot forwards or backwards helps as the muscles start to suffer.
Being able to move the foot from toe in and out ( float ) also seems to relieve knee discomfort and muscle fatigue.
These slight changes in the planes of movement allow me to sustain more power.
Moving the foot backwards or forwards a little tends to relieve fatigue in the muscles. I find I tend to move the foot further forwards for lower cadence higher force pedalling and further back for high cadence lower force pedalling.
During long intervals at a steady power / cadence moving the foot forwards or backwards helps as the muscles start to suffer.
Being able to move the foot from toe in and out ( float ) also seems to relieve knee discomfort and muscle fatigue.
These slight changes in the planes of movement allow me to sustain more power.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [Richard H]
[ In reply to ]
Richard H wrote:
People worry about weight less these days but some pedal cleat shoe systems are very heavy compared to a very lightweight shoe and a quill pedal. It's revolving weight too.It doesn't really matter that it is revolving, but the aero penalty of the shoes and flats, may in some cases be about exactly bad enough to offset the transition time savings.
Would be fun to study. I bet for sprint tris clipless still wins a lot of times but maybe not sprint duathlons
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
jackmott wrote:
Richard H wrote:
People worry about weight less these days but some pedal cleat shoe systems are very heavy compared to a very lightweight shoe and a quill pedal. It's revolving weight too.It doesn't really matter that it is revolving, but the aero penalty of the shoes and flats, may in some cases be about exactly bad enough to offset the transition time savings.
Would be fun to study. I bet for sprint tris clipless still wins a lot of times but maybe not sprint duathlons
A lightweight shoe and flat pedal would be as aero as a cycling cleat pedal combination.
Clips and straps would be un aero agreed, as would bulky running shoes.
Flapping laces would also be un aero.
Possible to test with a good power meter.
Re: Flat vs clipless pedals test [DavidK]
[ In reply to ]
The extensions are cut using a metal cutting band saw from 2"x2"x1/8" aluminum angle (6061 if you're interested). The hole is drilled using a 1 1/2" hole saw. I've made a number of these in response to individual requests. (They seem popular for sprint tri's and duathlons...)
The base pedal is from Performance Bikes:
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1033460_-1_400264__400264
Or you can also use these pedals (They're lighter and have better bearings):
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_520498_-1___204720
And the toe piece is from Nashbar:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175294_-1___204720
I've also made several pair using these: (No current pics though...)
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1167251_-1_400264__400264
(They lock your foot to the pedal...)
Better quality base pedal (Shown on my race bike)
Remember Luddites are people too...
The base pedal is from Performance Bikes:
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1033460_-1_400264__400264
Or you can also use these pedals (They're lighter and have better bearings):
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_520498_-1___204720
And the toe piece is from Nashbar:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175294_-1___204720
I've also made several pair using these: (No current pics though...)
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1167251_-1_400264__400264
(They lock your foot to the pedal...)
Better quality base pedal (Shown on my race bike)
Remember Luddites are people too...
aside from flat vs clipless ...
I want one of those treadmills.
I want one of those treadmills.