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Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help!
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Trying to solve some low back pain when riding.. Use to have the saddle high and forward caused me to posterity tilt and flex at the low back excessively I have developed my lower spinal erectors from that bad position.. Now I have kinda figured out I needed more setback and lower saddle to rotate the pelvis more forward to line out the low back.. Breathing is so much better in this position too. My low back is still trying to flex but I do have the ability to rotate my pelvis forward much easier since Ive used a selle smp. I use to be umcomfy on every saddle. So thats what probably made me posterior tilt so I can sit on the sit bones better. Selle smp has been the best saddle by far.

Here is a video of me rotating the pelvis, I feel when I do rotate I feel a bit restricted in the hips at the top of the pedal stroke I can only keep it there for a while but not when im putting power out, I feel I have to flex at the spine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BiCpRbDauM
Last edited by: SamYO: Oct 25, 14 15:04
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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the best way to help your back is to work on the front, ie, core muscles. low back pain is where the stress is presenting, not where the root cause is. you do not specify where the pain is, so identigfying exactly where the pain is will be key. is it 'below the belt' or higher up, center of the spine or off to the side?
the core supports from below, rather than locking out the arms and using the back muscles to 'erect' the torso.
continually changing the bike setup is only a bandaid/crutch.
see a physio/massage, check the psoas, piriformis, glute medius, internal oblique etc.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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The lower spinae erectors are the pain. I do lots of SMR self myofasical release its a fit problem because I fitted myself before and it was super comfy.. unfortunately I lost that setup due to a pulled hamstring I forgot to take the measurements.. My glutes were working big time in the pedal stroke and my back relaxed
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Based on what you have presented us with I would have to agree initially with Anne. The Video is not much help as it is below and looking up. if you can redo the video so that we are looking at you flat both from side and behind that would help.

The other thing that seems odd in the video is that you seem to be pushing your chest forward and inverting your spine rather than rotating the pelvis, perhaps that is just because of the angle of the video? if that is the case then that would be certainly part of the issue.

Retul Certified Master Fitter, FIST certified fitter, Owner of Hypercat Racing http://www.hypercat.com, and friend to the animals.
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [Philip Casanta] [ In reply to ]
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Ok I will try get a video, I have lowered stem. I will get a video up later today. I did ride with the lower stem and my glutes did fire better but left glute not so much, back pain did decrease.. but could still be better.
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Is there anyway I can contact 'Big' on this forum?
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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There are a lot of questions that need to be asked .
1 Do you have pain off the bike?
2 How are your knees?
3 What is your foot type?
4 Is that lordosis in your lower back or is it camera distortion?
5 When are you going to get a proper bike fit from someone who can look at your form and teach you how to adjust it?

Happy Freedman
Orthotic Consultant
Bike Fitting Specialist
Prosthetics and OrthoticsHospital for Special Surgery
510 East 73rd Street, Suite 201
New York, NY 10021


Happy
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [Happy] [ In reply to ]
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Happy wrote:
There are a lot of questions that need to be asked .
1 Do you have pain off the bike?
2 How are your knees?
3 What is your foot type?
4 Is that lordosis in your lower back or is it camera distortion?
5 When are you going to get a proper bike fit from someone who can look at your form and teach you how to adjust it?

Happy Freedman
Orthotic Consultant
Bike Fitting Specialist
Prosthetics and OrthoticsHospital for Special Surgery
510 East 73rd Street, Suite 201
New York, NY 10021

no pain off the bike
knees are fine
both feet are neutral (from all the MFR & corrective exercise I spend doing hours on end)
first video i'm forcing the lordosis, due to much flexion when riding
no one around here that studys biomechanics and how it relates to the bike
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Where do you live I will try to find some one Who can help

Happy
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Do you only have the lower back pain on your road bike or also on your tri bike? I can just see the front part of a tri bike in the video and was wondering if you have the same issues on both bikes?

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain [tri-run] [ In reply to ]
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tri-run wrote:
Do you only have the lower back pain on your road bike or also on your tri bike? I can just see the front part of a tri bike in the video and was wondering if you have the same issues on both bikes?

Yes

The thing is I function well off bikes. On bike im very stable I just know something is not right with the fit because I fitted myself before and was pain free. The postion allowed me to use my glutes big time and everything just relaxed
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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I measured your knee angle from a screenshot and found that your saddle height was set slightly too low. You're currently at 34.5 degrees knee flexion. This setup will shift you towards greater quad recruitment and cause the restriction at the top of the pedal stroke. Try raising the saddle a few mm to reach closer to 32 degrees. This should also alleviate the quad dominant pedaling technique.

The major thing I noticed was that your pelvis favors a posterior tilt which compromises your lumbar spine. From what I could see, it appears that the nose of your saddle is forcing this posterior tilt. The spine is most vulnerable when it's flexed and rotated (unless you have scoliosis). A saddle that's too high and nose up sets the lumbar spine perfectly for this position. Since the saddle height is almost at the optimal position, the only major variable to check is saddle tilt. Tilt the nose down one degree at a time until you can comfortably get the lumbar spine in neutral.

Remember that tilting the nose down will indirectly raise your saddle height, so once the height is corrected, record this measurement then experiment with tilt. With regards to fine tuning saddle tilt on SMP saddles, the trick is to place the angle finder on the flat section of the saddle (the middle between the two extreme curves). If you have a smart phone, download a leveler app to do measure the tilt. If you decide to use your phone, be sure to calibrate the phone on a truly flat surface (calibrating the phone on an actual bubble level is a reliable way to do this).

If you're still having issues with quad dominant pedaling after correcting the height and tilt, the fore/ aft will need to be examined. After straightening the screenshot, I drew a plumb line to check your fore/aft position. Right now, you have the fore/aft set to intersect with the pedal spindle. If you're still having issues with relaxing the quads, you still have a little bit of room to push the saddle back. If optimizing the saddle position fails to correct the quad dominant technique, then it's definitely a problem with the crank arm length. Hope this helps!

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.blogspot.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
Strava ESTS Club: app.strava.com/clubs/eat-sleep-train-smart

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [ESTrainSmart] [ In reply to ]
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ESTrainSmart wrote:
I measured your knee angle from a screenshot and found that your saddle height was set slightly too low. You're currently at 34.5 degrees knee flexion. This setup will shift you towards greater quad recruitment and cause the restriction at the top of the pedal stroke. Try raising the saddle a few mm to reach closer to 32 degrees. This should also alleviate the quad dominant pedaling technique.

The major thing I noticed was that your pelvis favors a posterior tilt which compromises your lumbar spine. From what I could see, it appears that the nose of your saddle is forcing this posterior tilt. The spine is most vulnerable when it's flexed and rotated (unless you have scoliosis). A saddle that's too high and nose up sets the lumbar spine perfectly for this position. Since the saddle height is almost at the optimal position, the only major variable to check is saddle tilt. Tilt the nose down one degree at a time until you can comfortably get the lumbar spine in neutral.

Remember that tilting the nose down will indirectly raise your saddle height, so once the height is corrected, record this measurement then experiment with tilt. With regards to fine tuning saddle tilt on SMP saddles, the trick is to place the angle finder on the flat section of the saddle (the middle between the two extreme curves). If you have a smart phone, download a leveler app to do measure the tilt. If you decide to use your phone, be sure to calibrate the phone on a truly flat surface (calibrating the phone on an actual bubble level is a reliable way to do this).

If you're still having issues with quad dominant pedaling after correcting the height and tilt, the fore/ aft will need to be examined. After straightening the screenshot, I drew a plumb line to check your fore/aft position. Right now, you have the fore/aft set to intersect with the pedal spindle. If you're still having issues with relaxing the quads, you still have a little bit of room to push the saddle back. If optimizing the saddle position fails to correct the quad dominant technique, then it's definitely a problem with the crank arm length. Hope this helps!

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.blogspot.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
Strava ESTS Club: app.strava.com/clubs/eat-sleep-train-smart

I am on my winter bike now.. the frame is 1cm bigger longer, smaller head tube.. I have the saddle more forward, I can rotate my pelvis better if its steep, like Time trial position.. I have alot of drop too, although I still feel I need to rotate more still..

Im going to do the same on the race bike when I sort it out before the season starts, going to use a 17 degree angle, remove all spacers, put saddle forward and ride like a TT postion.. to rotate pelvis more anteriorly..

What do you think about Steep vs slack and what favors pelvis position?
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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SamYO wrote:
I am on my winter bike now.. the frame is 1cm bigger longer, smaller head tube.. I have the saddle more forward, I can rotate my pelvis better if its steep, like Time trial position.. I have alot of drop too, although I still feel I need to rotate more still..

Im going to do the same on the race bike when I sort it out before the season starts, going to use a 17 degree angle, remove all spacers, put saddle forward and ride like a TT postion.. to rotate pelvis more anteriorly..

What do you think about Steep vs slack and what favors pelvis position?

It makes sense that it feels like you need more room to rotate. The more drop you have, the more room you'll need to let the pelvis tilt forward. Hopefully you don't have too much drop (so much that you can't maintain a neutral back with the torso and forearms parallel to the ground).

Unless you're riding a time trial frame for road use (Example: Kestrel Talon Road), the handling will feel "off" if you race on a road bike configured for a TT fit. This will also sacrifice power and transition time when switching from seated to standing pedaling. Attacks and accelerations will be harder to catch. A TT fit is also the least ideal setup if you're not planning to breakaway or race a TT. The perfect road bike fit will let you tackle all conditions effectively (aero position, climbing, sprinting, etc.). I recommend trying some of the initial recommendations I gave you in the last post.

With regards to "steep vs. slack" do you mean nose down and nose up, respectively? There are two major variables that can affect your pelvic tilt- crank arm length and saddle tilt. The most important variable is crank arm length. If the crank arm is too long, no amount of saddle tilt will allow you to hold a neutral spine.

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [ESTrainSmart] [ In reply to ]
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ESTrainSmart wrote:
SamYO wrote:
I am on my winter bike now.. the frame is 1cm bigger longer, smaller head tube.. I have the saddle more forward, I can rotate my pelvis better if its steep, like Time trial position.. I have alot of drop too, although I still feel I need to rotate more still..

Im going to do the same on the race bike when I sort it out before the season starts, going to use a 17 degree angle, remove all spacers, put saddle forward and ride like a TT postion.. to rotate pelvis more anteriorly..

What do you think about Steep vs slack and what favors pelvis position?


It makes sense that it feels like you need more room to rotate. The more drop you have, the more room you'll need to let the pelvis tilt forward. Hopefully you don't have too much drop (so much that you can't maintain a neutral back with the torso and forearms parallel to the ground).

Unless you're riding a time trial frame for road use (Example: Kestrel Talon Road), the handling will feel "off" if you race on a road bike configured for a TT fit. This will also sacrifice power and transition time when switching from seated to standing pedaling. Attacks and accelerations will be harder to catch. A TT fit is also the least ideal setup if you're not planning to breakaway or race a TT. The perfect road bike fit will let you tackle all conditions effectively (aero position, climbing, sprinting, etc.). I recommend trying some of the initial recommendations I gave you in the last post.

With regards to "steep vs. slack" do you mean nose down and nose up, respectively? There are two major variables that can affect your pelvic tilt- crank arm length and saddle tilt. The most important variable is crank arm length. If the crank arm is too long, no amount of saddle tilt will allow you to hold a neutral spine.

Ok well I tried the steep position on winter bike, didn't go to well, I have now moved my saddle alot further back, and lower, with the tilt not to much tilted, as the setback allows me to have room I will post a video up tomorrow I have only tested this position for 5 minute at the mo
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused why the adjustments you made were totally different than what I suggested. Earlier I said you had a little bit of room to push the saddle back- likely a max of 5 mm aft (from the point of having the patella intersected with the pedal axle- make 1-2mm of adjustment at a time). How far back did you set the saddle?

I also said that the saddle needs to be raised because you were a few mm too low, but you dropped the saddle further... If you had a quad dominant technique before, it will be even more prominent now. Were you trying to compensate for the nose down saddle tilt? If so, did you maintain the original saddle height or raise/lower it?

Also, don't mess with the spacers to lower the handlebar height. Keep the entire handlebar system untouched until the saddle position is fixed. Instead of going from a nose up saddle to a 17 degree nose down tilt, try a level saddle first, then progressively tilt further.

If you give me some numbers, I can tell you how much to adjust each component:
Saddle Height: ______
Saddle Fore/aft position: _____
Saddle Tilt: _____
Crank Arm Length: _____

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [ESTrainSmart] [ In reply to ]
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ESTrainSmart wrote:
I'm confused why the adjustments you made were totally different than what I suggested. Earlier I said you had a little bit of room to push the saddle back- likely a max of 5 mm aft (from the point of having the patella intersected with the pedal axle- make 1-2mm of adjustment at a time). How far back did you set the saddle?

I also said that the saddle needs to be raised because you were a few mm too low, but you dropped the saddle further... If you had a quad dominant technique before, it will be even more prominent now. Were you trying to compensate for the nose down saddle tilt? If so, did you maintain the original saddle height or raise/lower it?

Also, don't mess with the spacers to lower the handlebar height. Keep the entire handlebar system untouched until the saddle position is fixed. Instead of going from a nose up saddle to a 17 degree nose down tilt, try a level saddle first, then progressively tilt further.

If you give me some numbers, I can tell you how much to adjust each component:
Saddle Height: ______
Saddle Fore/aft position: _____
Saddle Tilt: _____
Crank Arm Length: _____

I am on my winter bike now, I havent touched the race bike yet, as I swapped selle smp to my winter bike and still waiting on the 17 degree stem to arrive

I will show you a video of my current winter bike setup and can go from there, once I get my stem for my race bike, we can do the race bike setup to?
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Would you be happy if i was to follow and private message you on twitter if easier?

http://www.dailymotion.com/...0141202-104036_sport

Winter bike:




Last edited by: SamYO: Dec 2, 14 7:01
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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bump
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Re: Trying to solve some low back pain fit problem {Big} please help! [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Would you be happy if i was to follow and private message you on twitter if easier?

Yes that would be a much easier way to contact me or via my work e-mail EatSleepTrainSmart@gmail.com. Sorry for the delay though- I had a busy couple weeks of coaching/ personal training, so I haven't had a chance to stop in and see your progress.

The pictures will help more if you get the whole bike in the picture and place a plumb line anywhere in the image. Earlier, I used the floor to straighten the image, but from experience putting paintings up on a wall, the floor isn't always a level surface. A plumb line will give me an accurate reference point to measure everything. I'll also need a meter stick or ruler on the bike to help measure your fit. Although if it comes down to this much work, we'll need to consider pricing for Bike Fit Consulting before we proceed. Try my suggestions though- It's free and I'm certain it will make a huge improvement on your fit.

Vincent Vergara
Eat.Sleep.Train Smart - Personal Training & Coaching
EatSleepTrainSmart.com
Twitter: @ESTrainSmart
Strava: app.strava.com/athletes/444535
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