So the local race is more about the experience, than the race - which I understand, if that's what you're saying.

I hope the organizers realize that to have a legitimate draft legal tri, they must have ample time between waves, as you suggest, and must strictly enforce bike specs. I'm pretty sure that the organizers will work it out, but I find it strange that more details are not available - other than "we're having a draft legal age-group W/C."

I've done my share of (pro/elite) ITU/USAT draft legal events, and enjoyed most of them, even though I sucked unless the bike was hard or technical. The ITU and USAT did a good job of making sure that our bikes complied, and that lapped riders were pulled from the event, etc. I love the idea of sprint distance draft legal tris and relays for the (relatively small field size) pros - exciting and strategic, and I enjoy watching pro/elite draft legal ITU events.

Having a draft legal age-group W/C will be tougher to manage, however - because of the increased field size - much less strategic and exciting (also due to the field size and a greater emphasis placed on the individual result vs. country/team aspect that exists in the pro field).

Frankly, my opinion is that the ITU/USAT would be better served putting resources towards producing a fair non-drafting sprint W/C, rather than throwing in the towel with regard to enforcing non-drafting. I also feel that the vast majority of age-group triathletes will have very little interest in the outcome (results) of draft legal age-group triathlon, and very little interest in participating as long as there is a choice between non-drafting races and draft legal races.

Until I learn otherwise, making the age-group sprint race draft legal seems like a cop-out to me (or possibly a way to further their agenda of the inclusion of draft legal sprint tri or relay in the Olympics?). In other words, it doesn't seem like the inclusion of draft legal age-group sprint W/C came about due to massive interest from the age-groupers. It seems like an organizer, country, National Federation, or International Federation felt like it'd be a good idea - for them, more so than for the athletes.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Jimmy,

off topic but I wanted to reach out and say well done on Kona... penalty tents seemed much fuller than last year, which was an embarrasing year for drafting, IMO. I raced this year in the front 100 on the bike, and it seemed like the marshalls were present and resisting the urge to "break things up" and instead just handed out penalties fairly and firmly. I always noticed them rolling up, watching for a good while, and then making reasoned decisions on penalties. This kept things broken up quite a bit.

I will say that after observing this I believe that "clean" riders become penalty magnets. You're strong, and you always pass no matter what if you break 7m, so you roll through a group making passes. When you get to the front a bunch of guys have begun to fight for your wheel. You slow a little as you are now into the wind. Moto rolls up and boom a bunch of guys get penalties.

maybe you could have a drafting version of "clean protocol" and give these guys transponders so the motos know where they are and can clean the riff raff off their wheels.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

"In Detroit they ran an AG DL even with 8 men and 1 women. That's what we CANNOT have, we cannot have a situation where we ask an RD to put on a DL event and then 1 person shows up"

Thanks, Ian. This is my main concern, too (discussed in more detail in my previous post) - and the fact that a mass start (all age-groups together) draft legal race is pointless from a competition standpoint.


Which brings me to my central point: draft legal age-group WC makes no sense to me and would be more trouble than it's worth.


We already have a feeder (to Pro/Elite) system in place.


To answer your questions - lots of good ideas in this thread, but seems like the interest isn't there for regional qualifiers so you would just focus on the Nat'l Champs?

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Just wanted to hit "LIKE" on this post, but slowman has not licensed the "thumbs up" logo from Zuckerberg for forum functionality yet.

I again ask why continue to have so many folks put so much energy on something that may never happen. Or if it does, until the ITU gives the total detail package, I think folks continue to over react.

Nothing from USAT has been announced for any DL stuff at AG nationals. This says something.

Nothing more has come out from the ITU.

I know there was a lot of push back from the federations at the ITU meeting at Edmonton about this.

So, I sure am not holding my breathe worrying about this will ever happen for the average AGer. Now a Pro level AGer, we shall see, but masses, never.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I again ask why continue to have so many folks put so much energy on something that may never happen."

Quit wasting your energy, then :)

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

 I hear you Dave. I'm invested in this because a) triathlon is my business, b) I like DL race at all levels and I'm excited at the notion that it could trickle down to age groupers, c) I do believe (hope?) that the ITU will live up to their claim, d) I'm one of those Pollyannas who believes that I can make a difference in the direction of things - to such an insane degree that in two weeks I'll vote for a congress person to replace Henry Waxman thinking the the person who gets elected might actually have an impact on the future of our nation. If I think that's true then I sure as hell think I can steer the direction of triathlon in the U.S.

Ian

 Jimmy,

"to have a legitimate draft legal tri, they must have ample time between waves" and " draft legal age-group W/C will be tougher to manage, however - because of the increased field size - much less strategic and exciting"

Age group draft legal racing won't be "legitimate" or exciting (to watch at least) and that's because it can't be/won't be in the multi lap format. That's how we think of DL racing but for age groups it can't happen like that due to the larger fields - unmanageable. The course will still need to be a long 20k and while there will be drafting going on and therefore there will still be some"stratergerie". But it won't be the spectator friendly format. If that were the case then we'd have to wait ~30 minutes between each wave and it would be a LONG day. Terry Davis used to put 15min between waves at Treasure Island and man did that protract the event!


I'm so refreshed by your opinion as to the 'why' of it all. You're speculating that the ITU is doing this so that they don't have to Marshal drafting at the sprint distance any more. it strikes me that a) I hadn't considered that and b) of course you would consider that.


When the field is 75 even the bike check is a hassle: UCI non-standard legal wheel check, arobars with factor bridge that don't extend past the levers, helmet, etc. That stuff alone is a time suck and the nose of saddle in relation to BB never gets looked at. To that end the bike rules should be easy: road only, no aerobars, standard wheels or wheels only from the UCI list, no aero helmets 'cause they look stupid and while were on that let's just throw out compression socks in there too for good measure - I mean f*ck it! If we're gonna clean up the sport let's do it all right here and how :)


Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I sure as hell will have to respectfully disagree with your last statement in bold.

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bhc, you disagreeing with what exactly? What I think? I wrote that I'm a pollyanna to such an extent that I'm voting for congress (you get that right? there's a little tongue in cheek going on there) and then I use that to frame up the next bit..that if I'm willing to do that then it's easy for me to think that I can have an impact on triathlon in the US. And you disagree with that?

If I type this sentence: "I think that purple is the very best color". Do you see an opportunity or reason to disagree with that too?

Or am I misunderstanding. Are you saying that YOU don't feel like YOU think you have any impact on the direction in triathlon in the US. And if that's the case then a) I'm sorry that I misunderstood you and b) If you really wanted to you could have an impact on the direction of things but you'd have to start somewhere and I would begin by adding your real name and location to your profile here at ST.

Ian

When we had this thread before, and the ITU first responded to Dan that the only change was no marshals, made sense to me.

Mexico is the federation that supposedly pushed this through. They have DL races with like thousands of folks? Dan was maybe going to go down and watch a race.
But then this stuff died out.

We have our DL AG race here in Northern Calif that was last week. Multiple laps so very spectator friendly. No one got hurt, again. Zero special rules. Just normal Tri stuff.

So yep, I have tried to steer it also to be just get riding of the drafting rules, since so many are doing it anyways, and we do not have lots of safety issues. This still might
be one outcome. Who knows.

But USAT not saying anything about a DL race at AG nationals says a lot to me about what might be happening behind the scenes.

I love to do this DL AG race. Not special anything. And it makes the swim mean something.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think you make some good points

I don't think it's a cop-out, just a different Idea. I don't know where it's being driven from, an official's personal opinion or some triathlon lobbyists or maybe they took a survey of some clubs in Europe.

I'll go anyway they choose, I'm still a MOP athlete anyway. I don't think I'll be able to go to Europe any time soon so a short course WC is not in the picture for me.

jaretj

we have wave starts but not so divided as you would think - usually 4-5 for men and 2-3 for women and 1 for relays. elites and disabled in same wave.
numbers in thousands.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Anyone die yet because it is a DL race?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thank you, Eric. I'm glad it was a better experience this year.

And I agree with your comments about "penalty magnets" and suggestion on how to use them.

Used your strategy often, when Joe Boness was racing. He was the ultimate penalty magnet.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

"Age group draft legal racing won't be "legitimate" or exciting (to watch at least) and that's because it can't be/won't be in the multi lap format."

Why, exactly, do you think draft legal tri for age-groupers is a good thing? ;)


Listen - it can work - but the biggie is that you can't mix age-groups in the draft legal format and call it a race. Take cycling for example. Different categories are not permitted to co-mingle - if the Cat 1's pass the Cat 2's, the Cat 2's are prohibited from jumping on. It has to be the same in draft legal tri.


So if the event has to be "protracted," so be it. If they do it, I'm hoping that they do it right.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

"I don't think it's a cop-out, just a different Idea."

Could be, and time will tell. If it happens and a reasonable amount of thought goes into making it a legitimate race (which is possible in draft legal tri) - then I'll take back my "cop-out" opinion.


But these words, if accurate, don't leave me very optimistic.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

awesome! I always look up to Joe Bonness.

from a social sciences point of view, I think the difference from this year and last year was not any new system, more motos, new rules, etc. Just the difference between firmly, fairly, and unemotionally giving out penalties rather than "breaking things up".

Also the male/female swim start split.

no one got hurt and the WTC brand was not injured... please continue to encourage dispassionate enforcement of the rules!

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

there was actually a death for the first time in October at the Cozumel HIM but that is WTC and non-drafting, so at drafting races, not that I know of.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I was one of those 8 men in Detroit and they ran us with the EDR athletes. I tried to get my friends to sign up but they were afraid of the lap out rule which they did not enforce. My goal was to not get lapped and I did it, just barely, but the 4 guys behind me didn't make it (they were not taken out of the race. They announced just before the race that they were not going to enforce it and it was a non-issue because they kept such a close watch on the Transition area.

Now if they had said they were not going to enforce it well before the race, I could have had a few athletes sign up with me.

After the DL race they ran the AG race, they also rode through the hot transition area on their laps. It was a relatively small race and even the AG athletes had no problems riding through.

I hope the race gets bigger next year and I'm planning on doing it. I'm also planning on spending much more time in the pool this winter.

jaretj

In all this, has it been announced where the Oly/Sprint AG world championships will actually take place in 2016? That is going to impact my race goals/schedule for 2015...

\Not yet

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just got from USAT


2015 Draft-Legal Races
Qualified certified race directors now have the opportunity to include NCAA draft-legal format races if they meet the criteria outlined below. Only eligible race directors will be considered for any and all draft-legal races. Sanction applications must be properly submitted in the sanction system 90+ days in advance and must go through an extensive approval process via Craig Hanken, USA Triathlon Draft-Legal Event Specialist. Draft-legal races must be approved for draft-legal status and also have USA Triathlon sanction approval from the Event Services team. Athletes participating in an NCAA draft-legal race will be ranked in the cross country style (low points are favorable) and not ranked via the USA Triathlon National Ranking System.

Prerequisites to host a draft-legal race in 2015:

• Must be a USA Triathlon Certified Race Director
• Must have five years of triathlon event management experience
• Must be sanction-compliant for all prior and current events
• All hosted multisport events must be sanctioned by USA Triathlon
• Submit sanction application at least 90 days prior to event
• Event must take place between Sept. 1 and the last weekend in October (10/31/2015)
• Distance must be specifically 750m swim, 20k bike, 5k run - adjustments may fall within 150m on the swim, 1k on the bike and 20m on the run
• Must have a looped bike and run course which is closed to traffic

Additional criteria must be met for women's NCAA draft-legal races. Women's NCAA criteria and requirement questions can be directed to Jess Luscinski, NCAA & Collegiate Triathlon Coordinator at Jess.Luscinski@usatriathlon.org.

Race directors with additional draft-legal questions can reach out to Craig Hanken, USA Triathlon Draft-Legal Event Specialist at Craig.Hanken@usatriathlon.org.

Questions on the sanction application can be directed to eventservices@usatriathlon.org.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Rumors, just rumors - Mexico? Very little validity in that, just a rumor and what better place to spread a rumor than the internet (I think that's why it was invented, actually).

Read that, Dave. That's about including NCAA portions of races. I suspect draft legal races for people who aren't collegiate women will come soon and probably follow a similar process, but this isn't it.
Glad to see they are saying it must be closed, looped course.

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IG: idking90