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Question re running after long layoff
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Hi, all. Long-time lurker, rare poster. Having decided to try to make 2015 the year in which I become a dedicated triathlete, I've got a question. Here's my brief backstory. High school swimmer (very average), high school cross-country runner (even more average), high school distance track runner (ditto). Let myself get beyond out of shape in the 25 years since I graduated. Just before I turned 40 I got a road bike and did four centuries in three years at a very slow pace, and generally rode more like 25-30 miles each weekend. Did my first, and only tri, in 2012 -- a 500m, 16 mi, 5K sprint. I was solidly MOP. Hoped to do more, but my next race was canceled due to heat and not long after I ended up having several discs in my neck fused. Last year was pretty much lost due to the disc and some other medical problems. Tried running again at the beginning of the year, but it caused a lot of pain in my neck. Got back on the bike, which went fine, and did another century this fall. The brightest side of all of this is that I lost a ton of weight. I'm not close to optimal -- a bit below 180 at about 5' 9", but that's way below where I started this journey five years ago.

So that brings us to today, and to my question. I finally tried running again a week ago, effectively for the first time in 18 months. Thanks to some Hokas, it didn't hurt my neck and my legs feel relatively okay. Per my PT, I started with only six minutes, have been running every other day, and building 10% by time each day. My run today was 8:02 at a 7:50 per mile pace (4th run overall). I was, however, completely hashed at the end. Knowing that the "standard" rule for building is no more than a 10% increase in mileage per week, I am wondering whether continuing down this path is overdoing it. Should I limit myself to a 10% increase from the 2.5 miles I ran this week? Should I continue to try for 10% per run by time? Should I slow down? (The 7:50 pace doesn't feel like all out, but it isn't too far from redlining). Long-term the Barry P plan looks promising, but I am nowhere near being able to consider it yet.

My goals are (1) to get more fit, (2) to do at least two tris next year (either two sprints or a sprint and an olympic), and to ride a lot more. I have a friend pushing for a half-marathon in March and maybe a 70.3 in late October, but we'll cross both those bridges if I survive to run a 5K in mid or late November.

Thanks for any and all thoughts.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Be patient. It's October. Lots of time until next season. 10% per run isn't too much for now... We're talking about a minute or two. But it will get to be too much pretty quickly. Run-walk is also good for building back. Listen to your body but don't be afraid to push it a little bit. Most importantly, run at an easy pace. Look up BarryP's plan. You're not ready for it yet but hopefully you can build to it by January.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you should slow down and not even worry about pace for now. Run easy and if you can't make the time interval then walk until you can resume running. Stick with it and don't over think it. The first 3 weeks will likely be the most difficult but your consistency will be rewarded. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Like Trirunner said, slow down. Doing so will allow you to run a bit further/longer and reduce injury risk therefore allowing you to be more consistent as well, which is really the most important thing at this point.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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With your medical history it seems that taking it slow would definitely be more beneficial. Just being about to do consistent training for now, even though it is short duration, will definitely provide more benefit than jumping in too fast and being put out of commission again. By building up slowly as your body adapts and can tolerate it you will definitely be working towards your goal of two triathlons in 2015. However, if you jump in too fast and develop a new problem than that jeopardizes that goal. I love that it's because of the Hokas that you are able to run for a few minutes, just curious why you think that.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Slow down the pace, and as the mileage starts to get more significant slow down the rate of increase to get closer to the 10%/week instead of 10%/run. At some point you'll need to back off even further - e.g. going from 30mpw to 40mpw could be done in 3 weeks if you went for 10% increases, but I know from past experience that I need to take 5-6 weeks to do it safely, maybe even longer depending on the other training/life stuff that I've got going on.

Your pace sounds far too fast for somebody who is only just getting back into running. If it feels not far off redlining then it's probably 5k pace or possibly even faster. 7:50 miles would give you a 5k time of about 24 minutes. For that sort of fitness your long and easy runs should be at 8:40-10:00 pace, with recovery runs being even slower. I'd stick to long/easy/recovery pace for all your training until you've built up to a bigger base, you can start adding in speed/tempo work then. You need to remember that if you've been doing a lot of cycling then your aerobic fitness is going to be pretty good - the ability of your heart and lungs to do a lot of work is going to be much greater than the amount that your running legs can handle.

How many days per week do you think you'll end up running, assuming the body can handle it? If your schedule allows for 6 days per week, then I'd get into that routine first before increasing individual run distance. 6 runs of 1 mile each is a much lower toll on your body than 3 runs of 2 miles each for example.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Your pace sounds far too fast for somebody who is only just getting back into running. If it feels not far off redlining then it's probably 5k pace or possibly even faster. 7:50 miles would give you a 5k time of about 24 minutes. For that sort of fitness your long and easy runs should be at 8:40-10:00 pace, with recovery runs being even slower. I'd stick to long/easy/recovery pace for all your training until you've built up to a bigger base, you can start adding in speed/tempo work then.

^^^This^^^
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to 4th/5th the "slow down" comment.

I'm doing the BarryP plan right now. I'm up to doing 10 & 20 min runs. I'm way slower than you, but some days it's hard to not go faster, after all, it's only 10 min of running. If you go slower it will be easier to add extra distance. I now follow this rule: if I finish my run and don't want to stop, I picked a good pace. If I'm staring at my watch waiting for the time to go by - too fast.

Good luck getting back into it. Consistency really will be the biggest factor in improving. I have a long way to go till I hit my goals, but I can't believe how well I'm doing.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, all. I will definitely do my best to slow a bit.

It may bear noting that my first few runs were at more like an 8:30 clip (I don't have the exact numbers handy now). But my cadence was well below the 170-80 that I understand to be considered optimal. The resulting of upping my cadence was going quite a bit faster (even though I only got to an average of a about 160 with a max in the low 170s). So I guess I need to keep my cadence up but shorten my stride?

To answer the questions others asked:

@dbikelink: I credit the Hokas because every step I took wearing my conventional shoes sent a jolt up my back and neck that I'm just not feeling with the Hokas. I feel like I am running on sponges and have none of that pain, at least in the moment. (The jury's still out on how it will feel long term, of course.). I also seem less sore the next day than at any point I can recall in my adult running life, as limited as that's been).

@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice so far. Please keep it coming!
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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New Guy wrote:
@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.

If in the past you were always running in this style that might have been why.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [Staz] [ In reply to ]
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Staz wrote:
New Guy wrote:
@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.

If in the past you were always running in this style that might have been why.

That makes sense, but the last time I ran frequently was when I was a kid and had a coach. Even my tri two years ago was coached (a group of us trained together with our workouts set for the group as a whole by our coach). I've nevertheless had a variety of running ailments, including chronic shin splints. But I do think some interim failures to get back into running may be explained by going too hard.

I am going to run today, and will try to keep it slower. I will let you know how it goes.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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New Guy wrote:
Staz wrote:
New Guy wrote:

@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.


If in the past you were always running in this style that might have been why.


That makes sense, but the last time I ran frequently was when I was a kid and had a coach. Even my tri two years ago was coached (a group of us trained together with our workouts set for the group as a whole by our coach). I've nevertheless had a variety of running ailments, including chronic shin splints. But I do think some interim failures to get back into running may be explained by going too hard.

I am going to run today, and will try to keep it slower. I will let you know how it goes.

Being coached doesn't necessarily mean you weren't increasing volume/intensity too much or too fast - I've certainly known some coaches who get very good results for those who can handle the workload, but a high dropout or injury rate from those who can't. If your coach was setting workouts for your group as a whole it doesn't sound like he was taking any notice of different individual training needs.

Running is by far the sport which causes most injuries in triathlon. Taking it slow and steady in running (both in pace and in volume increases) is by far the safest way to get good. Better by far to err on the side of caution and stay injury-free than to push it and pick up niggles. If you feel like you're running so slowly that it's frustrating and not achieving anything, you're probably on the right track! Stick to it, take out the frustration on the bike, and over a period of months you'll see the running improvements come.
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
New Guy wrote:
Staz wrote:
New Guy wrote:

@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.


If in the past you were always running in this style that might have been why.


That makes sense, but the last time I ran frequently was when I was a kid and had a coach. Even my tri two years ago was coached (a group of us trained together with our workouts set for the group as a whole by our coach). I've nevertheless had a variety of running ailments, including chronic shin splints. But I do think some interim failures to get back into running may be explained by going too hard.

I am going to run today, and will try to keep it slower. I will let you know how it goes.


Being coached doesn't necessarily mean you weren't increasing volume/intensity too much or too fast - I've certainly known some coaches who get very good results for those who can handle the workload, but a high dropout or injury rate from those who can't. If your coach was setting workouts for your group as a whole it doesn't sound like he was taking any notice of different individual training needs.

Running is by far the sport which causes most injuries in triathlon. Taking it slow and steady in running (both in pace and in volume increases) is by far the safest way to get good. Better by far to err on the side of caution and stay injury-free than to push it and pick up niggles. If you feel like you're running so slowly that it's frustrating and not achieving anything, you're probably on the right track! Stick to it, take out the frustration on the bike, and over a period of months you'll see the running improvements come.

Fair enough. Hi-ho, hi-ho, off for a slow run I go!
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Re: Question re running after long layoff [New Guy] [ In reply to ]
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New Guy wrote:
cartsman wrote:
New Guy wrote:
Staz wrote:
New Guy wrote:

@cartsman: As for how often I will be able to run, I am not sure. If I join my gym at work and eat at my desk I likely can run 6 days a week (including a treadmill as needed). But my body hasn't loved running that frequently in the past, so I am bit sure whether I should stick with what seems to be working or whether I should up the frequency and work towards BarryP.


If in the past you were always running in this style that might have been why.


That makes sense, but the last time I ran frequently was when I was a kid and had a coach. Even my tri two years ago was coached (a group of us trained together with our workouts set for the group as a whole by our coach). I've nevertheless had a variety of running ailments, including chronic shin splints. But I do think some interim failures to get back into running may be explained by going too hard.

I am going to run today, and will try to keep it slower. I will let you know how it goes.


Being coached doesn't necessarily mean you weren't increasing volume/intensity too much or too fast - I've certainly known some coaches who get very good results for those who can handle the workload, but a high dropout or injury rate from those who can't. If your coach was setting workouts for your group as a whole it doesn't sound like he was taking any notice of different individual training needs.

Running is by far the sport which causes most injuries in triathlon. Taking it slow and steady in running (both in pace and in volume increases) is by far the safest way to get good. Better by far to err on the side of caution and stay injury-free than to push it and pick up niggles. If you feel like you're running so slowly that it's frustrating and not achieving anything, you're probably on the right track! Stick to it, take out the frustration on the bike, and over a period of months you'll see the running improvements come.


Fair enough. Hi-ho, hi-ho, off for a slow run I go!

You are geniuses! Just got back from a whopping 8:43 run. Slowed the pace by about a mile a minute, to something around 8:40. But although I ran about a mile today and about a mile two days ago, when I finished that run I felt like I was going to die (and counted every second), today I feel like I could have run several more miles without a problem. I think I will try to work up to a 3 mile run and then start working the BarryP plan, or at least something close to it. I promise not to bother you every day in the interim, but I will keep my promise to keep you updated. Thanks again, and feel free to hit me with any other advice y'all may want to impart!
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