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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you should be able to tease out the differences with field testing, no problem.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Really straightforward explanation, thanks Jim. I assumed the wrinkles were in the wrong direction, if you could get it to wrinkle vertically that might be better..

I sometimes wondered - how difficult to make a truly bespoke bit of DIY boundary layer trip tailoring. Put on your tight fitting smooth sleeved top, get in aero. Buddy draws a line down your biceps at the leading edge. Attach something, say a thin strip of dimpled bar tape, or sew a rough seam along that line.

Craziness?

Obviously have to prove the concept in the tunnel, or at alphamantis..! ;-)

Nice picture to help visualize what Jim is saying about pressure drag. High pressure in front of the ball, low pressure behind.


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

Well if you can grow wrinkles in the right locations...

Since you guys seem to have such success with the LG helmet, perhaps you can comment on something that always has bothered me about their helmets. Why have dimples and a fairing?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [fierceSun] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone know if PI improved the zipper on the Octane? I had one an the zipper came off the track the 2nd time I wore it and wouldn't go back on. Luckily the place I bought it from took it back and gave me a credit so I bought something else. Loved the suit except for that one deal killer problem!
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Marcell_S wrote:
Any chance you could expand on your point you mention about 'patterning' is this material texture.
The T1 stealth seems to have a textured material on the back, would this improve aerodynamics in terms of helping the air stick?
The compressport one I have is very textured to say the least, not sure if this is a good thing!


I'm going to "attempt" to keep this short - we'll see if I succeed. Just know this explanation will be simplified a great deal.

Just to be clear on nomenclature: the pattern is the actual cut, or shape of the panels, on an article of clothing. Where the panels are placed can have a large impact on how a piece of clothing fits and feels, and the fit, as discussed, will have an effect on air flow around the clothing. Texture is how a piece of fabric is woven, and a particular piece of fabric's texture can be altered depending on the weave pattern. Texture can also be added by a process known as flocking. Material texture can also have a significant impact on air flow around an article of clothing.

Typically, utilizing textured material in a performance piece of clothing like a tri suit is an attempt to create air turbulence. This might seem counter-intuitive, as turbulent air causes more drag over a surface than a nice, laminar, flow, but really what the manufacturer is doing is choosing between the lesser of two evils. Between the two types of drag: friction and pressure, pressure drag is by far the worst. When air separates from an object, pressure drag is created. However, if you can delay the separation of the air from an object, pressure drag is reduced and that object moves through the air more freely. As it turns out, turbulent air, while causing more friction drag, delays the separation of air from an object and, therefore, reduces the amount of pressure drag. This is commonly known as "tripping the boundary layer" and is best illustrated by the dimples on a golf ball.

If you're still with me on this, let me add to the equation that an article of clothing's pattern can also act as a Boundary Layer Trip, mostly due to the placement of seams connecting the patterns which form the piece of clothing.

The question some are trying to solve is: What is the best combination of pattern and textured material for delaying separation of air from an article of clothing on an athlete's body? Answer this, and you'll have a fast piece of clothing. Castelli is pretty darn good at it, and the placement of seams and specific textured materials on the T1 in specific places is their attempt to reduce pressure drag while allowing for a piece that fits properly with adequate comfort and range of motion (the fit being very important).

Hopefully that all makes sense. It's probably an article I should just write to provide a better explanation, but time always seems so short.

By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

Seems like a modular approach would be a way to go with this. Same thing that is done with DeSoto wetsuits; and with testing bits and pieces of bikes in the tunnel. Break it down to sleeves; top bottom and then mix and match them to fit each individual in terms of length; seam areas; size; texture; trip lines; etc. This would allow the testing to possibly go faster, and provide a nice way to market it as well, as you can substitute out one part for another base on the race and conditions being raced in (everything from warm to cold weather). Might this be one of the things which is in plain sight? Just my first thought after reading through your posts. Thanks.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I like carefully positioned trip strips in predictable areas such as thighs, hips and arms/shoulders. Textures are better on the back as optimal positioning of a trip strip will be dependent on aggressiveness of the position.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Runorama] [ In reply to ]
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I believe this was attempted by the British track team in the development of their skin suits.

Michael hutchinson talks about it in his book 'faster'

He also mentions trying to recreate them himself with tape stuck on!


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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It's nothing new. I used to be a downhill ski racer. Spyder integrated trip strips into their skin suits in the early 90s. It reduced drag so much it was banned.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Jim and All,

Wrinkles ...

That is why tailors and seamstresses were invented.

It is fairly inexpensive to have your (athletic) clothes tailored .... as often as stretch and the dreaded wrinkles occur.

Holes can be patched ..... the garment is an evolutionary project ....



You certainly would have your riding clothes tailored at Savile Row on a wooden horse.

Next we will see stationary bicycles and a guy or gal with a mouthful of pins at bike shops.

While at the tailor it is a good time to add that special hidden pocket for weapons, or that full length zipper that zips on the diagonal, and so on.


Cheers,

Neal

+ 1 mph Faster
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Quite a few have had their tri speed suits tailored, but the results have been mixed. The main complaint is that the range of motion of the suit is restricted. Better to have it custom made from the start.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I think these wrinkles went pretty well ;)
Last edited by: Bogusdogs: Oct 22, 14 8:40
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanka again for your input Jim.

I have just got one of the castelli tops. It fits very nicely over the chest and shoulders, tight but not too constrictive.
However when I go into aero position I get ripple and wrinkles on the waist due to the zipp.

Looking at the sizing the size I have is the right chest size but larger than I am in the waist and hips. But the only size I can change to is 2 sizes down. I don't know whether this would fit me in the chest, or if the material would stretch.

Any other T1 users have this issue?


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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is what we're saying here actually that the chance of getting it right is so small, that you're almost certainly going to be going slower with a mass produced sleeved tri-suit over sticking with a sleeveless tri-suit and bare skin?

sounds like the variables on the age of material, how wet it is after the swim (or if raining), how wet it is from sweating (fabrics perform differently when moist/ wet), wrinkles, seams, pattern/ direction of thread on the material, wind direction, wind angle, humidity, whether the wind has been disrupted blowing through a hedgerow, whether it's smooth air, how the aerodynamics of the suit are interacting with the aerodynamics of the bike, body shape of the rider.... need to be so specifically fine tuned that you're unlikely to actually realise the potential theoretical aero advantage that is possible in controlled testing? especially that most of these variables will change over and over during a race.

i think most of these also apply to most aero 'gains' you can get from equipment. if you actually added up all the extra benefit you were supposed have gotten from all these aero parts you should have theoretically taken off a hugely unrealistic amount of time from your tt times.

the reality is that it's not possible for something to work in all the conditions that come up during a race, interact with all the other complex aerodynamics of other parts and work for every different body type.

after a reasonable baseline of aerodynamics everything else must surely be either not working as intended and at best having zero benefit or worse slowing you down.

still didn't stop me buying those lovely firecrests this year though......

Feel the Speed
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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That's actually fitting pretty well. I really liked how the Orca suits were fitting both SK and Starky. You can't get rid of wrinkles altogether, but too many and you'll go slower.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Westover] [ In reply to ]
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Westover wrote:
is what we're saying here actually that the chance of getting it right is so small, that you're almost certainly going to be going slower with a mass produced sleeved tri-suit over sticking with a sleeveless tri-suit and bare skin?

sounds like the variables on the age of material, how wet it is after the swim (or if raining), how wet it is from sweating (fabrics perform differently when moist/ wet), wrinkles, seams, pattern/ direction of thread on the material, wind direction, wind angle, humidity, whether the wind has been disrupted blowing through a hedgerow, whether it's smooth air, how the aerodynamics of the suit are interacting with the aerodynamics of the bike, body shape of the rider.... need to be so specifically fine tuned that you're unlikely to actually realise the potential theoretical aero advantage that is possible in controlled testing? especially that most of these variables will change over and over during a race.

i think most of these also apply to most aero 'gains' you can get from equipment. if you actually added up all the extra benefit you were supposed have gotten from all these aero parts you should have theoretically taken off a hugely unrealistic amount of time from your tt times.

the reality is that it's not possible for something to work in all the conditions that come up during a race, interact with all the other complex aerodynamics of other parts and work for every different body type.

after a reasonable baseline of aerodynamics everything else must surely be either not working as intended and at best having zero benefit or worse slowing you down.

still didn't stop me buying those lovely firecrests this year though......

I think the only way you can guarantee a suit is faster is to have it custom made, or aero test several to see which is better for you. Other than that, it's an "eye test" to hopefully guess which fits better. Of course, we can't dismiss the materials used as they're important, too, it's just fit comes first.

About aero testing, I think perhaps we've failed to properly explain what Alphamantis' system does since this comes up fairly often. You see, it is measuring the aero/time/power differences as they happen...as you ride. We're seeing the actual changes in real time, and our clients are seeing the differences when they race. We're not saying, "This is how much time you should have saved." We're sating, "This is how much time you did save."

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Westover] [ In reply to ]
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To further follow up on Jim's last post (hi Jim) when companies measure product x they are doing it in a vacuum of sorts. They are just measuring product X.
When you race you've got product X,Y, Z, A & B on your bike (say brake, aero frame, wheels, aero helmet & say skin suit or top tube storage or your choice)

Yes if you tested all these independently of each other you'd get 1+1+1+1+1=5. But when you test all of them together it's a system and you may get 1+1+1+1+1 = 3.5

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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If you look at the Seb picture a few posts above you can see his chest area is littered with wrinkles. I assume this is almost impossible to avoid in triathlon as you have to be able to swim and run in the suit (of course it could simply be unzipped for running). I know in my Tri Octane I have wrinkles in the chest, but without that "extra fabric" there during the bike there's no way it would fit correctly during the swim and run. The suit is already a bit "short" for me for running.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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I had the same issue. I ordered an XL due to my chest size. It was so big and wrinkled on me when in the aero position. I sized down to a Large and it works perfectly. It's a little tight but since the material stretches it fits perfectly

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny you mention Champ Sys.....

Jim, is the Apex Summer Short Sleeve Skin Suit or the Short Sleeve Speed Suit the CS item that's faster than the Apex Tri Suit?

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