At the end of the day I have ridden and run so many miles and toed up at so many races I don't feel the burning need to do it again. That said the camaraderie was a great thing post-race.....if by chance I stumble on a small scope race like that I'm probably in. Like I said.......1 in thousands of triathletes probably feel like me. I think it's great tri has exploded and hope it grows even more! I wouldn't say I'm lost to the sport, but rather I'm content to put a lid on a long history and feel fine about that. That said the lid hasn't been sealed with LocTite.....just Saran Wrap;)

"Are you doing all this just to figure out a way to market a unique event?"

i know, from your comments to both fleck and i on this thread and on the otillo thread, that you don't see things the way fleck and i do. yes, there are some very compelling events in the U.S. i think SOS is an example of an outside-the-lines, creative, bucket list event, right here in the U.S.

i just think that in most of the country, for most people, the really cool events, where RDs take a chance, and are not money motivated, were conceived and established years ago. not in the last half-dozen years. most of the multisport events in the U.S. in the last decade seem to me to be attempts to cash in on the upsurge in triathlon rather than to stake out new ground.

to answer your question, i have no new event. but i'm thinking about thinking about a new event. i have nothing in mind, but, always in the past when i just didn't find what i wanted out there i'd create it myself. not to make money. probably anything i came up with would not have an entry fee and you'd not know about it because there would be no registration to "open". just a few friends invited. as an example, a couple of months ago gerard vroomen emailed me and asked me if i wanted to do this "thing". which was very interesting to me. so, "i'm in". it's on the calendar for the upcoming may.

what is different about these scandinavian events, to me, is that these guys get very hyped about events that have fewer than 300 people and they don't see them as failures, but as successes. some of these events could have 3000 people. they cap the fields.

simply put, most of the new events i've seen on the calendar in the last decade in the U.S. have been financial low risk / high reward calculations. then we get a bubble of very similarly produced races. same thing in running, with the typical 5k/10k. too many events, nothing gains substantial traction, each event on its own seems anemic. now there are something like 600 identified entities producing a color run, rather than 1 guy being left alone with his great idea and 599 other RDs thinking about what they might want to do that's creative and compelling.

sorry, just bitching. i think i'm just like a lot of "soft" triathletes. i'd be more motivated to race more often if there were some really compelling terrain to cross in compelling ways.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If its a unique event you want to put on I think you are over thinking it.....

Otillo/Ironman did not happen because of "market analysis"

-Someone had a cool idea....
-it was unique, different than other events
-they started small because it was just a few friends and they aren't doing it to make money or make it a business
-word of mouth got the word out
-attendance increased and so did the "professional" aspect of the race
-people heard about this cool event and demand soared

I am still a little confused about how you are thinking of going about this....why not just come up with the event and keep cost low and initial attendance expectations low....we are on the same page on all this right?

the key is: It has to be unique and it can grow because you cant do this event anywhere else....

don't use the HITS approach....and don't get me wrong...I hope they succeed....I really do!....they seemed very customer focused and put great effort to put on well organized events....but they are not unique...not enough difference to other Triathlons (I think we agree here)....When they announced they were doing an event near Minneapolis I KNEW it would fail. WE have a huge amount of very well done Triathlons in this state (approximately 70 or so in a 4.5 month season...I am not kidding.. The attendance numbers in Lake Waconia (near Minneapolis) were abysmal...I could not believe they thought they could make it work here...I could have warned them...the event here are very well done, we don't have room for another well done triathlon (unless you want to scale it to 150 participants the first year and perhaps grow slowly by offering a low entry fee...

A couple unique event examples I can offer.....have you heard of orienteering?....I have done it along with triathlons the last 10 years...

I decided that most endurance athletes could not do the technical navigation very well and that is what turns them off on orienteering. They get lost, have to stop (they hate that!) and cant figure out where they are as they walk around....they don't come back to Orienteering meets because they aren't able to use their running skills...and don't want to do tough navigation on the run....

so, on my own, I offered a night orienteering event (use headlamps) where you ran in pairs or 3's or 4's (you only need one person that needs to navigate so they can invite their non navigating friends) and designed a course with easier navigation so the emphasis was on running the course...called it "adventure running"....Orienteering sounds like "Engineering" and doesn't describe the "off trail adventure" these events offer

after doing a few of these events we eventually had about 100 people show up for a "non official event" (no website, no Facebook, no on line reg) and VERY few were the local serious orienteering group....they were my running and triathlon friends.....I charged 5$/person and made money (wasn't trying to) and I paid for the Orienteering maps we used and permits for the park. I actually had people pay on the honor system...throw your $ in a bag over there and make your own change....I quit doing them because I did'nt have a much interest or time later (got married..had a kid) but I have no doubt I could have grown it into something bigger and more official....it was unique and different..the local paper did an article on it.....

want and example of an event very similar to this but made it to and "official level"...Raid the Hammer Adventure Run

http://dontgetlost.ca/....php/raid-the-hammer


Do you know what a Mountain Marathon is?....(its not a pure running marathon)....in the UK (primarily) their are just a few of these events.....but well attended.

2 person teams
Navigate a course of checkpoints through the Fells in the Lake District and finish at a campsite
At the end of the first day you camp out over night in the Fells with the entire race field,
You have to carry all your food, and tent and most of your liquid on your back
The next morning you break camp and pack up.
You start and navigate another course through the beautiful Fells of the Lake District carrying everything you need
You finish the 2nd day and results are determined by total time for both days.....

My wife and I flew to England to do one a couple years ago (and to visit her best friend)...I heard about it, read about it...had to do it....it was a great memory and I wish e had something here like it....problem, Like Otillo..the location and what you need is hard to find....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_marathon

here is the one we did....about 2,000 people do it in 2 person team with multiple courses (8 courses ranging in length and climb)....check it out.....look at the photos....stunning scenery

http://www.slmm.org.uk/

also, this is a unique event that is different from the orienteering meets....and adventure races.....but its a major event that was grown slowly over time...mainly word of mouth...

Unique events are out there....And you could offer up yours.....my unsolicited advice:

plan the course..keep it low key the first couple of years
budget for a few participants...
grow it and increase it....

you can do all this without "market analysis"

I am curious what kind of event are you thinking of putting on?....spill it!....what ideas do you have... .

"If its a unique event you want to put on I think you are over thinking it."

it's hard for me to overthink anything. i just don't think that highly under the best of circumstances.

"Otillo/Ironman did not happen because of "market analysis" -Someone had a cool idea"

right. exactly. that's exactly what i'm saying. my opinion is that too many races over the last decade, in the U.S., were created through the process of "market analysis".

"so, on my own, I offered a night orienteering event (use headlamps) where you ran in pairs or 3's or 4's"

bingo. perfect. you're the kind of RD i like.

"I am curious what kind of event are you thinking of putting on?....spill it!....what ideas do you have."

i have nothing up my sleeve. i'm intrigued by draft legal AG triathlons, so i'm going to fly down to mexico and do 1 or 2 of these because these guys who put on the mexico tri series are really at the leading edge of draft legal AG tri.

also, i'm intrigued by the guy who did his race-of-1 duathlon from furnace creek to mt. whitney, that is, not to the portal, but to the top of whitney. we've had threads on this before. bottom to top total elevation under human powered locomotion really intrigues me, always has.

trans-whatever inspires me. transalps. ruta de los conquistadores, stuff like that. we don't have a trans-sierras. why? i don't know. i've got some ideas about that.

these last 2 kinds of events are absolutely geographically inspired. you look up at the top of a mountain, how do i get up there? what's the best way? you're standing on one side of a mountain range, how do i get to the other side? what's the best way?

these are the kinds of challenges that inspire me. i have nothing planned. i'm not fluffing you, getting you ready for this thing i've already domain name saved. what i MIGHT like to do is challenge you all to come up with some really interesting events, and then slowtwitch will pick the top 3 or 4 and we'll run ad campaigns and turnout efforts no charge. and i'm just making this up. i thought of this as i'm writing this post. there's no ulterior business motive here. rather, a selfish personal motive. i just want you all to make an event that i want to do. and it doesn't need to be a race. just a thing. let's go from here to there. you just have to either provide the porta potties or at least a shovel.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

combine an otillo like swimrun in pairs and then have them transition to a Mountain Marathon type course where the 2 people have to navigate to the finish through checkpoints (carry all the crap they need from the swimrun to Navigation section)...don't you all have some open hill areas where you could do something like that in Cali....I have only been there a few days in my life...

.Henry Coe area had a Rogaine recently (low attendance)....

http://getlostxx.com/...st_in/Henry_Coe/2015

could you swim otillo style in Anderson Lake park and then navigate through Henry Coe for my fictional above event?

Otillo is not enough....you gotta navigate in pairs efficiently also....its the next challenge beyond mere swimrunning.....Sweden loves Orienteering...they could do an even like this easy.....Norway also....

Can a unique event spark something? Absolutely. When Haarek started Norseman in 2003 Norwegian triathlon was down with a broken back. You only had a small amount of athletes. Norseman ignite a spark and now triathlon has been growing for 10 years. All the media attention got triathlon back on the map, and several new great events started, Axtri, Trollveggen, Uvedal. But also regular events. Now also WTC/Ironman is in Haugesund.

BUT, you have to look at the reason why Scandinavia has different events than the US. I believe it has something with how sports and events are organized. They are not driven by RD trying to make a living, but from the grass roots. Often by individual in the non for profit sports clubs. All the profit goes back into the sport, and or the event.

It is also easier to organize events in general. A lot easier.

how about using this area...

http://getlostxx.com/...n/Panoche_Hills/2014

I know nothing about it.....

do something here at Mono Lake...looks very cool for some swimrunning type events.....

https://www.google.com/...!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en

Guilty as well. But I'll punch you if you call me soft. I know who Mike Pigg is....

I am a "lifestyle" triathlete for sure. I run and swim continuously, but bike only occasionally throughout the year. I follow the pros. I buy the triathlete magazines. I buy gear.

I signed up and paid for a single race this year but dropped out three months early. I view a race as a test and realized I didn't want to commit to the demands of really pushing myself in training volume to do well in the race. If I didn't have three young kids I would race, but I do have three young kids and, for me, it's too much of a grind to have zero margin in my life between training, work, family, etc. That's why I don't race. The competition can be a thrill, but it's not nearly as important to me as the simple pleasures of running and swimming on an everyday basis...and sometimes biking.

"do something here at Mono Lake...looks very cool for some swimrunning type events."

you can't swim at mono lake. no outlet. extremely salty. but there are plenty of other places to swim. crowley lake most notably. june lake, and there's the june lake tri, which is a great race, i've done it, very good race.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Definitely a soft triathlete..I did an Ironman in 2000 and then went back to school, and now have 2 little kids. I feel like triathlon is something I aspire to and I like to follow the pros (especially the ones with familes!) I've done a few sprint triathlons recently but you would laugh at my bike, more than 10 years old. I run a lot, swim sometimes and though I love biking don't do it much due to time issues. Told myself I would not buy any new gear until I'm capable of actually doing a half. Over the past 15 years I've only bought discount running shoes, a new swim suit and goggles - I'm proud of running in my ragged shorts and ancient race t-shirts. Still a groupie though.

It's a long thread already, I did not read every post. If "absolut" data is hard to get from non responders then "relative" data from responders could help to have a piece for the puzzle, if the responders would stat the relation ..

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___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

Personally I think too many people psych themselves out before races and make it more about KQing or getting a tattoo or the t-shirt. IMHO, and as much as I can't even believe I'm saying this, it should be about "the experience". Just the fact that you're out there w/ those of similar interest. There will always be the racers, and the one and done's, but for the lifestyle folks who are growing weary of the ever increasing race fees and just want to have fun (and race a bit) a change would be nice. Ultraman would be an awesome event for those of us looking to do something over multiple days. Something akin to throwing your surfboard in the back of a truck and taking off to Mexico to surf for a week (or for those of us with kids, a long weekend), but the acceptance rate seems really small. Doesn't have to be competitive, although if you're doing it it'll creep in.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Soft triathlete here. I have three kids under 4 years of age. When the first kid was born I swore I'd do at least one race per year, which I was able to do for the first few years, but this year was just too stressful to voluntarily make myself even more tired by racing. I still look forward to that day in the distant future when life calms down so much that racing doesn't seem like an unnecessary stress again. Before I used to train 6 days a week with a pretty good balance of SBR, but nowadays I mainly run och sit on the trainer sporadically (=can go for 2 months without any training), and go to the pool maybe once or twice a year. I do enjoy watching Kona and keep up to date with what's going on on the technology front, and I did buy a Tacx NEO to make sure that I'm as quiet as possible when on the trainer. But in all reality my training is so dismal that I don't really label myself as a triathlete anymore.

From a dollar perspective I do still spend money on simple stuff that can make the sporadic training run/ride fun, like Zwift, good trainer, tri watch (920XT) etc, but I don't really see myself buying a new bike or any bike related stuff (wheels, power meters, electronic shifters etc) any time soon, as that is of rather limited value outside of racing or serious outdoor training.

If you could get USMS, US Cycling, USATF, and whatever other running/cycling/swimming associations you can find, to share their email list with you, then you could send out emails to all of these members. Using myself as an example, I've been an annual member of USAT off and on since 1987 but my last 3-yr membership expired in 2014. Similarly, I've also been a member of USMS off and on since 1980, and have been a USMS for the last 6 yrs in a row after about 15 yrs of non-membership. So, you would get me on the USMS list but maybe not on USAT. Prob there are others like myself, although some guys/girls are just not "joiners" and hence you'll miss them.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I haven't read the responses to your question but I'll say tthis. I know some triathletes who do one local race a year. Not all of these races are usat events so you can't get them that way.
Most of these people use old equipment /technology and are pretty happy with that.

I was going to suggest this as well. Especially if you can look at page view history on a per user/viewer basis over time, slowtwitch might be a great resource for identifying trends or even specific individuals. I know when I go into periods where I am not racing, I stop reading the main forum (except maybe during big events like Kona or TDF, or occasionally checking in out of curiosity.) But you'd still find me reading the lavender room most days. Lately, if you looked at my viewing history, you'd see I'm checking in and reading a lot more main forum content and front page articles than I have in the last few years--and sure enough, you'll see some race results for the first time in several years on athlinks as well (and hopefully more to come next year, since I registered for a couple 70.3's.) During the years I wasn't actively racing, I never stopped thinking of myself as a triathlete, but the triathlon specific discussions just weren't as immediately relevant, so I spent a lot less time there.

I suspect this is a pretty common trend, especially for long time slowtwitch members who bounce back and forth between active and "soft" triathlete. So I'd guess there's a ton of useful data already at your fingertips, at least if you've been collecting and archiving it all along.

Gone are the days of (most) people changing email addresses. I've had my same gmail account for 12 years.

If you something great to offer, most people wouldn't be annoyed to a one time email poll or something like that after 3-5 years of being away from something.

I don't know much about Facebook, but data mining and then specific targeting on social media might work. Might get some mismatches, but you'll get a lot of matches I'd think. It will cost $ to do it right.

Zombie thread!!!!

Man...I just re-read the entire thing, vaguely thinking "this reminds me of a thread from a couple of years ago that I was interested in". Have to check those post dates.

Thanks for saving me from writing a really long and thoughtful response to a 2 year old thread.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

I haven't raced in a number of years. I haven't trained for a couple either, but I will always be TriDork.

Triathlon is still a big part of my life, but I doubt I even count as a soft triathlete anymore. I think I might fit in your group because I still buy all sorts of shit I don't need. Hell, 3 years ago I bought a Cervelo P2, rode it twice in training, to ensure it fitted, and once in a half IM but for 3 years it's just been collecting dust. Do I count as a triathlete if I still have 3 tri bikes?

Unfortunately, other than N=1, I don't think I'm much actual help finding soft triathletes for you. Sorry

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

This. Then combine the results with Google Trends data for the same terms. Extrapolate ad nauseum.

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Stim / Psych / Fun

While watching the debate, FaceBook recommended that I join the Pathetic Triathletes group...and I did! The data is certainly out there; it's just not where it used to be.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

We don't like being called "soft".

I'm thinking you just need to ask around, and find a few. Those few will open up doors to others. Tri-clubs with statistics would probably also be the other means.

I've done 1 race (NOLA 70.3), had one other scheduled (Dublin 70.3) but pulled out with injury. I plan on doing 1 a year, maybe 2. I run and "train" constantly, but not "for" anything. When a race is planned, I'll specify my training for that. But other than that, I run, ride and swim (more running than either of the others).

I have a group of friends that travel and "race" like I do. And we joke because we do this "to not be fat pieces of shit".