Well this is awkward...

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I tweet!

That doesn't make sense unless you are going to have them do a blind a to b test somehow and then after all of that pull back the curtain and say "ha, Domane is good enough"

The whole point of these tests is that people aren't good at interpreting data, you have to be blind/cover the bike to get rid of that. If you put someone on the right bike that they perceive as being too soft, an extra 20 psi isn't going to help, the brain will continue to go with "too soft."

If a salesman could use what you described, the article would have taken a lot less time to research.

Maybe not, the brain can fool itself with the minuscule frame differences that are hard or impossible to perceive, but the tire and tire pressure differences are much much larger, you are more likely to actually feel them and less likely to fool yourself.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

That's a conclusion that isn't in the article, but would make for a fun test.

How do you define "same vibration"? Same frequency? Same amplitude? Same response from a square wave input?

I ride a Domane and it is more than "good enough" but I can see that people would get hung up on Trek's advertising it as a cobblestone crusher or "endurance" frame and assuming it would be no good to climb a mountain or, indeed, to do triathlon - two things that I have done with my Domane. I could absolutely tell the difference between a Domane and a Madone even if the badges were covered and they were both running 25 mm tires at 100 psi or whatever. Because of the decoupler I could probably tell the difference between the Domane and Roubaix but only if I got out and rode them both. I like this thread though, I put zip 404s on my Domane and guess what...it felt stiffer/more responsive/faster.

You might be right!
But you don't know for sure till you try!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

You misunderstand, I think, or perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that I could change someone's superstitions/preconceived notions that easily.

Because people can't actually distinguish between the factors that make up how a bike actually feels, the brain makes rationalizations based around what someone has told the rider they should feel on a certain bike. They misappropriate (and exaggerate) causation of "feel" (due to a complete misunderstanding of the relative magnitudes of the factors that determine how a bike feels).

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I tweet!

I am worried that if I do this then I will get bike envy for the Madone.

Watts.

This should spark some discussion, but I have to say in advance I can't say much more about it yet.

Cheers,

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Here's another write up of blind testing:

http://www.zedler.de/...1b63b206598cb22c94dc

In this one, TOUR Magazin taped over the frames, matched other parts (wheels & saddle, etc.) and also had lab measured values for stiffness. Interesting reactions from the test riders!

ETA: Sorry, I didn't realize this link apparently doesn't contain the whole article.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Not Grms?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

No Tom, grams come from the wind tunnel ;-) We're talking vibration here.

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Nice try...you know what I'm talking about.

Besides, grams is not a force measurement, so it shouldn't be the output of a wind tunnel anyway :-P

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hi Tim,


Ah, I thought you were abbreviating grams, and I was giving you a hard time about us not using CdA, ha ha.


Now I see you mean g-forces root mean squared. No, that doesn't distinguish between different frames well enough.

Have you read any of these papers?
http://mecano.gme.usherb.ca/...ublications_ang.html

Cheers,

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Bike shopw have been doing this for years....................................why I am not a fan of test rides being needed to buy a bike. It can be manipulated by the seller very easily, and is

You'd rather NOT test ride them? :-/

BTW, whenever I've done the test ride thing, I always make sure I know what pressures are in the tires and if I'm doing an A vs. B comparison, I'll swap wheels so that both use the same. It's fairly easy to not have that be a factor.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Oooh...more reading material (so no, I haven't) :-)

BTW, who is Tim?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

You've never been called ("typed") Tim before? j/k. Sorry, my fat fingers. The "i" is right next to the "o" on my keyboard :-(

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

No not really. I cannot know in a test ride around the block, or even 20 miles the way I will think of the bike after riding 50-80 two days in a row. Or I have convinced myself not to.
When I got my first road bike many moons ago, I was told by a guy fitting since the late 70"s and who developed the "Fit Kit" to just go take a tape measure and find the bike that closest fits the numbers he gave me and ignore brand names ect. Its worked well for me. Now I am old and think I will always LIKE the bike I want to like before I ride