You are talking extermination. Big difference. I'm just if there were no religion, anywhere, earth would be more peaceful. I'm speaking hypothetically. Of course we are stuck with the religious cancer and it's not going anywhere. But remove that component of hate, and the earth is a much better place.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

 

>You are talking extermination. Big difference. I'm just if there were no religion, anywhere, earth would be more peaceful..

Not to go all all Lavender Room, but my perception is that religion is just a vehicle through which land, power, and cultural politics play out. Those same politics play out in purely secular arenas as well. And I say this just having gotten back from a Bad Religion concert in full atheist mode. :)

Oil & Gas revenue is 86% of the budget revenue. You can get this off of the Bahrain Ministry of Finance website. Bahrain has moved downstream in energy production. The country only produces 40,000bpd but has a refining capacity of 250,000bpd. Most of the revenue is generated from the refining and sale of product. The raw crude comes from Saudi Arabia. I don't think running out of crude is really the issue for them.

Real change is a generational issue not something that can be dictated over night. It takes time, but incremental change is the only way. The power vacuum post sweeping regime change in Libya and Iraq have shown that democracy will not take hold.

Good point. I guess without religion people would be forced to be honest with themselves. Until then, religion is a perfect smokescreen for one to advance their own agendas. Explains our messed up planet.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Would Bahrain allow Israelis to compete on their soil? I seem to recall a lot of controversy when a tennis tournament in abu dhabi tried to deny israelis from competing on their soil. It wasnt until other tennis players threatened to not come either unless Israel was able to attend that they finally changed their minds.

 I seem to recall a lot of controversy when a tennis tournament in abu dhabi tried to deny israelis from competing on their soil. It wasnt until other tennis players threatened to not come either unless Israel was able to attend that they finally changed their minds.//

SO what you are saying is that sport broke down the barrier? This is exactly what we should be trying to accomplish with triathlon too. If the israeli barrier is now broken down, then we can move onto the womens..

"Would Bahrain allow Israelis to compete on their soil?"

i don't know. they don't have diplomatic relations with the israelis. i think it's tough for an israeli to travel to an arab country, except for jordan, morocco and maybe egypt. however, if an israeli were to travel on an other passport, say, a U.S. passport, maybe. i'm looking into this now.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hello, please see this link to know more about Bahraini women and triathlon

You can either respond in public or through private message. Thank you and have a great day.

Thanks for the link. It is very refreshing to see this.

Yes. Exactly. This is the part that really sticks in my craw and the supporters seem unwilling to acknowledge. America, Canada and Australia aren't perfect by any means. But I'm pretty sure the head of the USAT hasn't been linked to personally waterboarding people at Gitmo.

I seem to remember that Uday Hussein was a big into sports. What if he fixated on triathlon instead of soccer and wrestling? Would you all have been cheer leading for the Tikrit 70.3 15 years ago with Uday helming the affair? I doubt it.

Hello Slowman and All,

While there might be issues of personal security ...... considering that the US Navy and US Marines [my alma mater] are based there ...... it seems reasonable to me to cover the race on ST media and if so inclined to compete there .... providing all nations (including Israelis) are allowed to compete.

As others have written ...... good should flow from sports competition.

Bharain is more 'small island city state' than country.

http://www.navy.mil/...y.asp?story_id=82575

Teenagers are living there.

http://www.navy.mil/...y.asp?story_id=82949

AFN (Armed Forces Network) improvements provide a voice to the surrounding area for America.

(and as noted on website: "Vice Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Michelle Howard, reminds Sailors to be safe as they enjoy this Labor Day weekend."

causes me to consider that women's issues on Bahrain have likely not been forgotten.)

More info here:

https://www.cia.gov/...actbook/geos/ba.html

Excerpts:

“In 1783, the Sunni Al-Khalifa family took power in Bahrain. In order to secure these holdings, it entered into a series of treaties with the UK during the 19th century that made Bahrain a British protectorate. The archipelago attained its independence in 1971. Facing declining oil reserves, Bahrain has turned to petroleum processing and refining and has become an international banking center. Bahrain's small size and central location among Gulf countries require it to play a delicate balancing act in foreign affairs among its larger neighbors. The Sunni-led government has struggled to manage relations with its large Shia-majority population. In early 2011, amid Arab uprisings elsewhere in the region, the Bahraini Government confronted similar protests at home with police and military action, including deploying Gulf Cooperation Council security forces to Bahrain. Sporadic clashes between demonstrators and security forces continue in Bahrain. Ongoing dissatisfaction with the political status quo has led to a broader discussion termed the Bahrain National Dialogue, a process that convenes members of the executive, parliament, and political societies in an attempt to reach a political agreement.”

Area - comparative:
3.5 times the size of Washington, DC

Ethnic groups:
Bahraini 46%, Asian 45.5%, other Arabs 4.7%, African 1.6%, European 1%, other 1.2% (includes Gulf Co-operative country nationals, North and South Americans, and Oceanians) (2010 est.)


Languages:
Arabic (official), English, Farsi, Urdu


Religions:
Muslim 70.3%, Christian 14.5%, Hindu 9.8%, Buddhist 2.5%, Jewish 0.6%, folk religion <.1, unaffiliated 1.9%, other 0.2% (2010 est.)


Population:
1,314,089
country comparison to the world: 157
note: immigrants make up almost 55% of the total population, according to UN data (2013) (July 2014 est.)


“current situation: Bahrain is a destination country for men and women subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking; unskilled and domestic workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Ethiopia, Ghana, and Eritrea migrate willingly to Bahrain, but some face conditions of forced labor through the withholding of passports, restrictions on movement, nonpayment, threats, and abuse; many Bahraini labor recruitment agencies and some employers charge foreign workers exorbitant fees that make them vulnerable to forced labor and debt bondage; domestic workers are particularly vulnerable to forced labor and sexual exploitation because they are not protected under labor laws; women from Thailand, the Philippines, Morocco, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, China, Vietnam, Russia, Ukraine, and Eastern European countries are forced into prostitution in Bahrain.

tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - Bahrain does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so; the government has made few discernible efforts to investigate, prosecute, and convict trafficking offenses; cases of unpaid or withheld wages, passport retention, and other abuses - common indicators of trafficking - are treated as labor disputes and taken to civil court rather than criminal court; the government has made no indication of taking steps to institute a formal trafficking victim identification procedure and referral mechanism, resulting in the majority of victims seeking shelter at their embassies or the NGO-operated trafficking shelter; most victims have not filed lawsuits against employers because of a distrust of the legal system or a fear of reprisals (2013)”


Cheers,


Neal


+1 mph Faster

Thanks for engaging on this thread. It takes courage, a calm demeanor and patience. Obviously the Challenge Bahrain event is bringing up a great range of reactions from the western triathlon community. On the one hand, it seems like it is putting the kind of publicity, prize money and respect behind professional triathlon that many believe is sorely missing. On the other hand there is some consternation about supporting an organization which has had some troubling allegations leveled against it. Many are hopeful that bringing different athletes around the world to compete will help us resolve differences, understand each other better and ultimately benefit both the people of Bahrain as well as those whose relations with the country are improved. I believe this is possible and a noble goal, therefore I encourage participation, but not without engaging in difficult conversations because without these conversations, I think progress toward the greater goal beyond triathlon is not achieved.

For me, specifically the allegations against Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa are the most troubling and are directly connected to the triathlon organization in Bahrain. As far as the truth behind the allegations, I am not aware of a through investigation having been done, so I do not seek to try to expose the truth of that here, but would you care to comment on your position regarding the right of people to engage in non-violent political speech which may be in conflict with the opinions of the ruling family and whether or not the rulers of the country are/should be subject to all the same laws as the general population?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

"the supporters seem unwilling to acknowledge"

i can only assume you haven't read through the thread. or you've omitted reading my posts. or you don't consider me a supporter. i take the allegations very seriously. they are really the only reason this is an issue, and that this thread is here at all. were that particular individual the front man for this race i probably would be striking a different posture.

what i will not criticize is bahrain's response to the arab spring revolt in its country in 2011, not because in favor of the response, but because it's clear that we in the west grossly misunderstood and miscalcualated the nature and implications of the arab spring. we in the west ought to be humbled by our response to the middle east over the past decade and probably think twice before we speak and three times before we act when it comes to telling arab countries how to respond to their own uprisings.

what does trouble me greatly are the specific allegations attached to one of the dozen or so in the royal family who participate in triathlon, and that those allegations smell and taste like retaliation for disloyalty, rather than an effort to extract life-saving information (not that the latter is a proper justification). that bothers the hell out of me.

but he is not putting on this race.

ironman and challenge have no real problem with this. it was full speed ahead with both brands when dealing with the bahrain delegation. i hope the difference between us and these race organizers is that we're not going to ignore or run from these allegations, nor self-censor, nor sensor you. we're going to walk a tightrope, because we'll embrace this race as a middle east triathlon glasnost, while also remaining cognizant of the allegations and the attendant legal machinery even now ongoing (in the UK, for example).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This entire thread is a great example of why I love this forum. I have neither the time nor the mental bandwidth to do my own research on Bahrain and puzzle through the ethics of supporting a triathlon there.

So it's great to rely on smart, trusted, thoughtful people who will discuss the issues here. I'm fine with "the slowtwitch doctrine" because I trust that slowman has put a lot of thought into it, and I haven't read any major counterpoints to it.

The stickiest thing in this whole discussion involves the actions of an individual (the accused torturer) in context with the actions of the Bahraini government. If those accusations are true, how do our reactions differ if he's just one bad apple, versus that torture being enable and/or supported by the government?

A similar situation was with Jerry Sandusky and Penn State. There, one man did a very bad thing, and the repetitive nature of his crimes were clearly enabled by the organization. And arguments have raged over how much the football team as a whole should be punished for this.

And just as reasonable people can disagree about Sandusky, Paterno, and penn state football, so too can reasonable people disagree about Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, the royal family, and the Bahrain triathlon. We can all choose to watch or not watch a penn state game, and we can all choose to participate or not in the Bahrain triathlon. But most would consider it unreasonable to ask espn to cease coverage of penn state football.

So it seems entirely reasonable for slowtwitch to cover the Bahrain triathlon.

I'm inspired by a recent conversation we had about our pragmatic governor, Jerry Brown. And I think pragmatism is probably as good a lens as any to view the race through. Perhaps better. Certainly I think our own government could have been a bit more pragmatic in its foreign policy.

I think the pragmatic question is, "does embracing a sport like triathlon - and allowing things that are necessary, like women racing in a typical race outfit, the paying of equal prize money, etc. - help to move Bahrain in a positive direction?" And I think the answer is, unequivocally, "Yes!"

It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate. But are we closer to having Bahraini women participate in sports where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race? I think probably.

To go back to the Jerry Brown analogy, I think you look at the enormity of balancing California's budget - something a lot of folks said couldn't be done - and you say, "well, how do you even tackle a problem that large?" I feel the same way about the overall political climate in the USA? How do fix a problem that large? I suppose it's kind of like training for an Ironman - or a half, as the case may be here. You start wherever you can.

Sport has some amazing power. 1895, New York World published the following list of "don'ts" for women on bikes: http://www.brainpickings.org/...en-on-bicycles-1895/

Or, of course, there is this story about the Afghan National Cycling Team women: http://www.npr.org/...-and-breaking-taboos

I think that having a race in Bahrain is better than not having a race in Bahrain in terms of potential long term benefit to the country.

To stake out a perhaps related-but-unrelated stance, I think it is a bad thing to have the World Cup in Qatar, though I generally think that things like the World Cup (and the Olympics) are at best a mixed proposition for any country because of the enormous cost and extremely limited potential long term benefit. A triathlon is sort of the opposite. It requires virtually no permanent infrastructure and yet achieves much of the same end net positives associated with being active/healthy/competitive.

On any topic with strong ideological arguments to be made, it seems that the perfect is very often the strongest enemy of the good...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate."

i'm pretty sure they can participate. there's a number of bahraini women who've race full IM distance (south africa). i *think* they can race this upcoming challenge in bahrain as well.

"where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race?"

ah, now THAT is the question.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sorry. Should have been more clear - compete "just like anyone else." Though I suppose the precise definition of "like anyone else" is debatable. I was referring to them being able to race, for example, in a "normal" tri-kit.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"Sorry. Should have been more clear - compete 'just like anyone else.'"

actually, you were clear. i just read your comments too fast and when i went back and read them again you were writing in the context of apparel.

when i saw the youtube video of the "tri women of bahrain" and i saw their race attire this just stuck out at me. my visceral reaction was: 1) i just love it when anybody goes out and does what he or she wants badly to do, damn the impediments; and 2) this is a great clash of expediency and reason on the one hand with a historic religious norm on the other hand. in america we ask whether women should be in the priesthood. no, some say, because it's clearly spelled out in paul's writings who can and can't be in the priesthood (women not only can't be in the priesthood, they need to "be silent" in church). but some (i, for one) view paul's letters as the words of a conservative person in a male-dominated, almost misogynistic society. in other words, it's the clash of the "literal word of god" with the "divinely inspired" writings of a man in and of his moment in time. we have the same discussion when divining the proper meaning of the constitution and bill of rights.

i am not a muslim, but i don't think people are that different all over the world, and i wonder if the same kind of discussion is not going on w/regard to how a muslim woman should be modestly, but take-appropriately, attired in a triathlon.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well, increased body coverage can be hydrodynamic and aerodynamic advantages sometimes, so maybe some women are following that science.

Many europeans find it odd that women cannot wear whatever they wish on american beaches. They wonder why women are forced to cover their chests, and wonder why americans still follow such puritanical standards of modesty.

At the same time, most american women, if given the option to uncover their chest on a beach (say, while visiting europe), will choose to remain covered. They want to protect their modesty, think that parts of their body should be reserved for viewing by their partner, and don't want to be judged on how they look.

Likewise and for similar reasons, some muslim women choose to remain covered even when living in a country where being covered is allowed (or even where being covered is illegal!).

In other words, we should be careful about forcing our standards of dress on other cultures. Imagine if the europeans threatened to boycott sports in the U.S. unless american beaches became top-optional for women. I bet a lot of american women would howl in protest, and call them arrogant and presumptuous.

Some non-usat triathlons in america allow men to race topless. Should there be a campaign by the germans to allow women in those events to race topless?

Yes, yes there should be, and Slowtwitch should cover that race thoroughly!

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Long Chile was a silly place.

"we should be careful about forcing our standards of dress on other cultures."

you're right! and if anyone was advocating that in this thread he should be corrected!

ardent followers of track and field might remember sandra farmer-patrick, top intermediate hurdler from the U.S. (born in jamaica) who for quite a long time had a kind of dress she wore during competitions, to appease her very strictly religious mother. so, it's not just in muslim countries.

if you look at that dress of sandra's, it was about as minimal as you could get and still be a dress. there are a lot of christian women who, just like muslim women, do not appear in public without head coverings. but sometimes those "veils" can get pretty minimal. to the point of silliness, in my opinion, because the whole point is lost. obviously in the jewish religion attire and head coverings are addressed.

to me, there are two questions, equally interesting, and that is whether women have the right, or should have the right, to dress according to a western sense of modesty when engaging in a western-inspired activity (like triathlon)? second, when those women either are not so-allowed, or if they choose to strike a balance between islamic dress and race-functional apparel, is there somebody out there helping with it?

when i hearken back to the times in the past when triathlon has had a problem and needed a solution, it's invariably been emilio de soto to the rescue. as a top pro - sponsored elsewhere i assume, so i will not divulge his name - said to me just in the last couple of weeks: "emilio's arm coolers, nothing works like these. a lot of people have tried to copy them, but they can't get it right. de soto is the only one who can get this right."

one wonders what an expert pattern maker, skilled in endurance and tri apparel, who clearly has a grip on how to make functional wicking and evaporative cooling garments, could do for an islamic woman who wants comfort, performance, function and modesty.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hello Slowman and All,

Perhaps more information on dress codes here:

Dear Neal,

There's a lot going on at Moment Bicycles in the next few weeks, including a Global Solidarity Ride to support the Afghan Women's Cycling Team. Read on to find out more!

Global Solidarity Ride

Ride with Us!

The brave women of the Afghan National Women's Cycling Team have a mission: to break through the gender barriers that exist in their country by riding their bikes.

We're participating, along with Liv Cycling and Mountain 2 Mountain, in the Global Solidarity Ride on August 30: a way for us all to show the women of Afghanistan that they are not alone in their revolutionary actions.

Join us for a ride, leaving from the shop at 8:00 AM on Saturday, August 30, 2014. We'll ride a metric century out-and-back to El Capitan Reservoir. Route sheets and refreshments will be provided before the ride. Please bring your own ride essentials- nutrition, repair kit, and spare tube. Join us for lunch after the ride at one of the fabulous restaurants in Liberty Station. For more information visit our event page.

Moment Bicycles
2816 Historic Decatur Road #135
San Diego, CA 92106
(619) 523-2453
www.momentbicycles.com

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster