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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious
I cannot speak on behalf of Nina and I am in no way defending her actions. I however believe the sport is better for those historical events which opened our eyes to the use of drugs in our sport. Nina was rightfully targeted for very limited testing of EPO in Hawaii at that time, It is a little naïve of people to believe that everyone before during or after that time whom we seem to hold in such high regard has always been clean too. Beyond her public shame she was also shunned by many Pros for breaking what is something like a code of silence as to the use of a PEDs, the norm is obviously deny deny deny of which she never did. How many people have confessed on A sample? I am not saying that should or needs to be admired but it is a fact.
As to my opinion on your question 2 or 4 years would have made little to no difference on her decision nor will it to others in the future, as always the punishment should fit the crime. Unfortunately the more money that comes to Triathlon the bigger the incentive.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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TimJ wrote:
Thanks Power13, sorry their seems to beome negative BS

I probably should clarify something...I have no issue w/ her racing because she did her time and is therefore entitled to race. But I do also believe in stronger doping penalties. I continue to go back and forth on the idea of immediate lifetime bans for blood doping offenses.

Either way, while entitled to race, I also believe that athletes who have previously doped warrant additional scrutiny, and if caught again, deserve no sympathy or additional chances.

That said, while your support of you wife is admirable, I think you are spinning your wheels here (and potentially fanning the flames?). Debating doping with some of the "moralists" here is like debating abortion, gun control or the Israel / Palestinian conflict. You just aren't going to change some people's mind on the issue....no matter which side they stand on.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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> Unfortunately I could not follow through with the boycott when this past weekend I was forced to drop $3,300 on 3 mountain bikes for my family. Unfortunately they make some great affordable bikes....but it really pains me.

This reminds me of the South Park episode where they're boycotting Walmart, and one by one they cave in because of the amazing deals.

And eventually we have to move on. Oakley and Trek dropped Lance like a toilet seat and make great products. Someday....
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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AJHull wrote:
I had every intent of boycotting Trek for the way they aligned with LA and sabotaged Greg Lemond. Unfortunately I could not follow through with the boycott when this past weekend I was forced to drop $3,300 on 3 mountain bikes for my family. Unfortunately they make some great affordable bikes....but it really pains me.

Same goes for Nike, but the Nike Free's are fantastic shoes!

Everybody has their price, I guess.....


"Forced to drop"? Who "forced" you? Seriously, you can't tell me that you couldn't find a similar deal from Specialized, Giant, or any other brand out there.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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there are plenty of criminals who "could not have been nicer." Nina is a doper and if anyone has any interest in honest sportmanship you don't glorify or praise cheaters like her.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
AJHull wrote:
I had every intent of boycotting Trek for the way they aligned with LA and sabotaged Greg Lemond. Unfortunately I could not follow through with the boycott when this past weekend I was forced to drop $3,300 on 3 mountain bikes for my family. Unfortunately they make some great affordable bikes....but it really pains me.

Same goes for Nike, but the Nike Free's are fantastic shoes!


Everybody has their price, I guess.....


"Forced to drop"? Who "forced" you? Seriously, you can't tell me that you couldn't find a similar deal from Specialized, Giant, or any other brand out there.

Happy wife = happy life

She liked the bike for her and the ones for the kids. I am old enough to know the right path to go ;)

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly! I would make a terrible member of a protest group ;)

I also selectively protest McDonald's...only in the non-summer months because during the summer they have dollar drink days.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver
Last edited by: AJHull: Aug 27, 14 13:27
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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>Exactly! I would make a terrible member of a protest group ;)


Me too. After getting a very persuasive and heart-felt response from Emilio DeSoto via PM, I'm ending my DeSoto boycott after....let's see...about 3 hours. DeSoto arm coolers back into the starting rotation of cycling wear.....
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail
I would be interested in seeing a game of NFL football between clean players that have never taken a banned substance as the ball would probably not move from wherever the referee put it, it must be entertaining with your selected viewing to see it move around the field without anyone touching it.
No need for me to shoot holes in your list you obviously choose to use the products that you are comfortable for whatever reasons and so you should, I was just curios. Traffic school is full of self proclaimed innocent people that have stories similar to your drafting penalty, you get an appropriate punishment and move on.
Thanks for your openness and I wish you the best in your racing and commend you on your continued commitment of doing so in fair and clean manner.
Sincerely Tim
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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It is perhaps not wise to compare this to other sports, as we all know that football, and all of the major US sports are not bound by WADA, and since OUR sport has this distinction, there is absolutely NO comparison. In fact, I would say we have rules, but when it comes to doping, I think it is more appropriate to think of it as breaking the law, not simply a rule. Yes, she did her penalty and is free to compete as per the rules. How she is accepted is a different matter, which each chooses.

I was in Kona at that time, and she denied Natasha her due. To say she did not dispute the findings is pretty much a big fabrication, as she basked in the glory for how many days until she was BUSTED!? If there was not testing, she was completely willing to walk away as champion! That to me doesn't make an admirable person at all. That time on the stage at the biggest event in our sport can never be given back to the real winner, so don't feel that she has been persecuted unfairly by those that choose not to jump on the bandwagon because she's now a nice person. Tragic that she did not DQ herself before the test came out......that would have been the honorable way and we could have some faith in her integrity. That way it panned out makes her a virtual felon in our sport. I'm happy she seems to be happy in the sport and her community embraces her, but some cannot go that far to be a cheerleader.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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TimJ wrote:
As to my opinion on your question 2 or 4 years would have made little to no difference on her decision nor will it to others in the future, as always the punishment should fit the crime. Unfortunately the more money that comes to Triathlon the bigger the incentive.

What kind of penalty do you think would be a deterrent to doping today? I'm not referring to Nina here, past or present. But a deterrent to a 20-year old aspiring pro, and to a 35-year old established pro?

Would an an assured loss of fans/sponsors forever be enough? Public shaming on internet message boards for the rest of their careers? Or would less do the trick?

I ask because you have a unique perspective on this issue. Not necessarily more right or more wrong than anyone else's, but definitely unique.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply







TimJ wrote:
I will respond to this and then step away from this thread, I owe you this as I had previously reached out to you.

What kind of penalty do you think would be a deterrent to doping today? I'm not referring to Nina here, past or present. But a deterrent to a 20-year old aspiring pro, and to a 35-year old established pro?

For a twenty year old aspiring Pro I don't think the length of any ban or severity of penalty other than $s in the form of a fine would make any difference, they would just finish college and get a real job. Of course they may return to longer course racing in later life but I guarantee he would only do it because it his passion and not for the money. Same thing for a 35 year old established pro except they would just go back to their original careers and make more money. The main problem beyond peoples ethics is not the extent of the punishment it is enforcement. I personally think that blood samples should also be kept for possible later testing, then the athlete would know that established or new drugs can and hopefully will be caught sooner or later. As a self confessed never race cheater I am happy with whatever the powers that be decide including a lifetime ban.

Would an an assured loss of fans/sponsors forever be enough? Public shaming on internet message boards for the rest of their careers? Or would less do the trick?

I think fans and sponsors will and should make their own decisions for their own reasons. Triathlon is still primarily a participation sport, kids aren't trading pro cards on our street corner just yet. Most people at these races have no idea who the person coming down the finish line is and are cheering them in recognition of what they may have done or gone through to get there, Google and Wikepedia are just a click away if anyone needs more info on someone. Few people come to a race to watch their professional heroes and most are there to support their own friends or family of who they are the real fans of. As far as public shaming on the internet of anyone I just don't see that as my responsibility and to use a term from my old country "sorry but it's just not my cup of tea"
I only became involved in this thread because I saw what I thought was an ethical infraction of their proffessional responsibility as I see it, but I think you all already know what that feels like.

I ask because you have a unique perspective on this issue. Not necessarily more right or more wrong than anyone else's, but definitely unique.

Yes you are right and I am glad we have all had this discussion here, I don't profess to be right or wrong and 'am definitely far from perfect. It hasn't been easy for Nina to live with my uniqueness either and if that will make someone else happy then so be it.

AlwaysCurios
If you would like to get my opinion on any other issue besides Nina then please just message me.

Sincerely

Tim



I apologize to anyone if they have been offended by any of my views or comments as I have tried to remain as objective as possible.

Last edited by: TimJ: Aug 27, 14 22:56
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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Good point.

If you admit guilt in modern societies, you paint a target on your back.

Modern human brains (particularly those living in disintegrating social systems) can no longer deal with (and accept) honesty and forgiveness.
Part of ethical decay and break down of social consciousness.
Some atavistic leftover from monkey brains that is resurfacing in a monkey society....



asianzone wrote:
Speaking of drug cheats, does anyone on this board know what happened to Rebecca Keat's case. She was banned for 2 years after testing positive but later she tried to sue hammer saying that it was their product that caused the positive test? Nothing public was made known and my guess is that there was a settlement

Somehow people overlooked her incident and she seemed to be able to compete without too much hassle from the general public. Same can be said for that Dutch guy, can;t remember his name now but he has retired?

Nina, Michael Weiss and Liza H seemed to be bearing the heat from everyone else...

I do support longer term bans for drug cheats but i just noticed some get away with it from the public while others don;t for whatever reason?
Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 27, 14 21:29
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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TimJ wrote:
trail
I would be interested in seeing a game of NFL football between clean players that have never taken a banned substance as the ball would probably not move from wherever the referee put it, it must be entertaining with your selected viewing to see it move around the field without anyone touching it.
No need for me to shoot holes in your list you obviously choose to use the products that you are comfortable for whatever reasons and so you should, I was just curios. Traffic school is full of self proclaimed innocent people that have stories similar to your drafting penalty, you get an appropriate punishment and move on.
Thanks for your openness and I wish you the best in your racing and commend you on your continued commitment of doing so in fair and clean manner.
Sincerely Tim

I am grateful to be able to race ironman triathlon. I pay, train, compete and finish in the knowledge that I have raced against people who have cheated me to go faster than me.

Now imagine the same race only no cheating - I pay, train, compete and finish in the knowledge that everybody there respected the rules, nobody cheated and we all shared the same spirit. My fee is worth the same as everybody else's as are my results.

Take your game of NFL and take away the drugs. Now watch the game - what is the difference to the viewer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Drug cheats taint my entry fee, they take away my right to a fair race and they deny the real winners the opportunity of the podium. They are the disease in sport, the more of them there are the more feel it necessary to cheat to compete. The disease spreads as the money and greed take hold. There is no end to this road, once you are down its path you are taking plaudit and admiration by cheating. You are the disease.

This is one reason why more money in triathlon would ruin the sport. The more money, the more reason to cheat, the more greed and the more financial reward if you are not caught. The more Nina Kraft's would populate the start lines, tainting my entry fee and denying me the possibility of fair competition.

Take your NFL comparison and shove it firmly and solidly up your arse.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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Good observations. Even though I believe in deterrents, I also remind myself of Goldman's dilemma: in the 1980s and 90s, 50% of elite athletes said they would take a pill that would guarantee them olympic gold but kill them within 5 years.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
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