While we don't disagree per se on your argument and analogy, where I will raise a hand is the regional argument in so far as, all races are now regional or getting to be regional. Market saturated. Ie: Tremblant, Muskoka, Lake Placid. 3 IMs within 5 hour drives of each other. LP will pull from NY; Tremblant Quebec/Ontario/upper NE; Muskoka Ontario south. Gone are the days of flights, rental cars...and that's a good thing.

We do agree however on heart vs head decision making; Americans going to Tahoe or Whistler from Pacific coast; and wishing Mike & Kev the best. I obviously want the race to flourish and I think it can grow with the relays, half, and regional festival feel. I just think the goal posts of success needs to be viewed differently. Ie: be what you to be not what you were....IMC will never be replicated & neither will Roth. So be what we want to be. Assuming of course money can be made-:)

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@rhyspencer

Penticton has the potential to be the best and most popular 70.3 event in Western Canada with 3 x single loops but they should market it as just that. There are so many more people willing to take on a half than a full and with Whistler established now and getting such good reviews I don't see how Pentictons numbers won't continue to decline. I hope Mike & Kevin let go of the full distance and turn it into an event similar to the GWN and I wouldn't be surprised to see 1500 -2000 racers in a couple of years. The Oliver race was building to that until the management fell apart along with the event quality so we know that there are thousands of people in southwest BC looking for a high quality, well organized 70.3 event.

What would be wonderful and smart would be for the people that made the stupid decision to kick WTC out, swallow a little pride but back on their big girl panties and welcome them back. Let the new guys put on a really well run half 4 week prior to the full. Let WTC bring back Ironman Canada to Penticton, since everyone calls the new venue Ironman Whistler. Penticton would have two big event weekends a summer and one of the best Ironman courses will be preserved. I am an American would do both events.

It wouldn't surprise me if WTC somehow wound up back in Penticton with a half distance race but they would NEVER move an IM out of a world class resort like Whistler to go back to Penticton.

I'm curious as to what Legacy Program fine print you're talking about. It seems pretty cut-and-dry.

Not saying it isn't slippery/shady...would just like to know what you are referring to.

NordicSkier is just a Brand hater. I have had 3 friends race Lagacy and they finished Kona between 12:50 and 15:30 they would have never qualified but all 3 say it was most incredible experience. I can't wait for my turn.

I wasn't saying move Whistler just add Ironman Canada back in. Plenty of people for the two races.

x2. Yes, what is that fine print? My take is this. Have 12 in the bank which includes 1 in each of the past 2 years, be registered for #13 (no need to actually do it), then race Kona as #14 if you get picked up. Yes, no guarantees, but they seem to be honoring the deal. Suppose you don't get picked up that first round, then you complete #13, register for #14 in the next year, and Kona = #15.

**I believe** he is talking about the do one "each of the past 2 years and be registered for one in the coming year" requirements......

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

What are the qualifications to enter the Legacy?

To enroll athletes must meet all four of the following requirements*:
1. Athlete must have completed a minimum of twelve (12) full-distance IRONMAN-branded** races (includes existing and past events) by December 31, 2013.
2. Athlete has never participated in the IRONMAN World Championship in Kailua-Kona, Hawai�i.
3. Athlete must have completed at least one full-distance IRONMAN event in 2012 and 2013.
4. Athlete must be registered for a full-distance IRONMAN event in 2014.
*Legacy athletes will be required to submit their information during online registration.
**2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike, 26.2-mile run

If I competed in a 2012 IRONMAN race that was a 2013 qualifier, does it count as a 2012 or 2013 race?
All Legacy events are based on calendar year, not qualifying year. In the example above, it would count as a 2012 race.

Not much fine print.

Plenty of people for the two races? I think not. With a stunning venue and rave reviews Whistler had less than 2000. CP had less than 300 in the full. Factor in CDA and Tahoe being close by and WTC would never try to put an IM in Penticton & Whistler in the same summer.

Here is my thought.....Challenge Penticton turns into a half Iron in early July with 1500-2000 people. Then you have IM Whistler at the end of July and Ironman Canada at the end of August back in Penticton. Seems like numbers are down in Tahoe and that might survive better as a half IM than a full opening up some market pull from all the Pacific North West and California guys to consider Penticton again.

Now Nordicskier needs to reply with the obligatory "won't happen" slant

Totally agree with this. 2012 you had 3000 athletes at IMC. 2013 Whistler only got 1800 of them. So that is 1200 left over plus the 250 that did challenge equals 1450 displaced racers. CDA numbers have been steady so there is a absolutely room for the race. With 1450 as a base I could see it easily hitting 1800 to 2000 athletes as Ironman Canada. I know I would be there for sure. You have 2 totally different types of venues and courses with a little something for everyone.

I think that math is sound. I also think there could be long term synergies with Whistler and Penticton both being IM distance. I could see more Americans coming back in future years to race the other location, after having a good experience (which most people report) on either of the two courses. I think those who travel probably like to mix it up rather than doing the same race again. That could add to growth on both races over time.

I could also see Challenge being more successful with a Half course in the Okanagan in early July or mid June.

The downside for Ironman is that they already have two Half events in Vancouver and Victoria in early Summer. So, a Challenge Half at that time could hurt them. That said, I don't think entry numbers are a zero sum game. Location and date are huge factors of course.

I really think(since Tahoe is not the draw they thought it would be) that putting the next western full ironman somewhere in coastal California would make the best demographic sense
- I have been hearing rumors about one for years....

Cave A was speculating about that "lonely feeling" out on the full race course with only 250, or so, people. Last year as a spectator, I shared that sentiment. This year, as a participant, and almost a competitor, I have a different perspective. Really a different vibe. NOT (that) LONELY.

I did the race as a MOP guy, every other year from 2000-2010, and saw the rise in participants, so I have a bit of perspective on the difference (s) between the Challenge and the Ironman. here's a quick summary.

1. Swim: waaaay less crowded and aggressive, especially in the 1st 300 M. More open water and opportunity to chart your own course. Obviously less drafting. (not good for me)
   
2. T1: faster - plenty of wetsuit strippers, and room in the change tent (even with the 1/2 Irons finishing). Less people clogging up the bike mount line.
   
3. Bike: Not as crowded in the 1st mile. BUT WEIRD FOR PACING as you are "competing" with 1/2 Iron racers, and have to not get caught up in their race. After we left the 1/2 racers at Oliver there was no "train to Osoyoos" as in previous years. I started the climb up up Richter pass just before 10 AM and encountered just 4 people by Spotted Lake, and just about 10 more by Yellow Lake. Crowd support, however was present and very enthusiastic. Aid stations were loud and positive.
   
4. T2: very calm, had the place to myself almost, maybe 3 other people in the change tent (at about 1:50).
5. Run: spooky quiet on the initial "parade lap" down to the Sicamous, quite busy with spectators in City Centre. Very very few competitors from miles 5-12 which was ok for me during my crisis (less witnesses), however, plenty of enthusiastic, well-stocked aid stations all along the way to the turnaround at OK Falls ~ with the exception of the section of the new run out and back in OK falls. I saw waaay more people on the way back to Penticton from OK Falls at least until I got to Skaha Beach, from there to the end I saw very few competitors.
   
6. Finish line: Maybe it was delusion at the end of almost 12 hours of being out there, but it seemed to be just as busy as in the IMC days, plenty of crowd support, music, and of course STEVE KING.

In summary, if you are an intrinisic Ironvet who wants to Challenge themselves, or a newbie who is afraid of big crowds, this is your race. If you are brand loyal, love the "big show," or are either Kona hungry, or are Penticton bored, go to Whistler.There's room for both.

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

This mirrors my experience exactly (we must have been close to each other on the run).
Was mentally prepared for a much lonelier experience. In reality I was seeing other athletes at every point on the course. All of the aid stations were well stocked and enthusiastically supported. It was confirmed to me at the dinner that one run aid station crew had not showed up at all though. Not a big deal for me, some may have missed it. My wife was in the 14+ hr crowd and was lonely at times.
Finish atmosphere was terrific, the new line on Main St was an improvement.
IMHO going to only a Half or 2 loops of the Half would me a major loss to the sport. It IS an iconic course and it would be a shame to lose it. You could play the front 9 at Augusta twice but it wouldn't be the Masters.

Agree with the comments about the course experience. I was a 15hr finisher (my own doing in training - or well, lack of training! LOL!) and I was a bit worried about how 'lonely' the course would feel.

I didn't really notice it too badly on the bike - Richters was def better than Yellow Lake - which was a ghost town. I was used to that approach to Yellow in the past and it was crowded with people most of the way. This year, there was maybe about 15 people at the turn off to Apex. Then thankfully the gorilla and banana guy part way up playing music. I found it quite demoralizing - but it was just because it was race day. So, really, it felt like a training ride, and if you saw a gorilla and banana guy in a training ride, then that would make it epic. So there you go.

Riding into town and seeing how 'sparse' it was on the run course, it caused me to panic a wee bit thinking 'what the hell am I doing?' as I felt this immediate guilt for those volunteers who would have to be manning the run course all along East Side for so few people. Felt very weird to ride on Main street and be alone. And getting into T2 with no crowds. And into the T2 tent and it being totally empty.

The run though, wasn't as bad as I thought. I cannot lie and say it was wonderful, because well, it wasn't. It was sparse. It caused you to think. And thinking really doesn't combine well with doing an iron distance race. But the aide stations were fantastic and the one thing was that with so few people out there, you usually said a 'good job' or 'way to go' to those going in the other direction. I wasn't thrilled when i saw the course change with the finish line change, but it was nice to make the turn around at OK falls and be at 23k already. Mind you, the out and back in OK falls was demoralizing - and with no volunteer or timing mat at that lone pylon, someone could have easily turned around way earlier (it was about 3/4 of a km out).

The part that stuck in my mind though was running back into town and hitting the 'main' street area, and there being no one. I was expecting a coyote to walk through - totally a different feel that running in CDA. And the old IMC. You could hear the finish line and see the lights and that last block was fabulous. But too bad it was for only one block though.

I'm glad I did the race though and I hope it continues and rebuilds. There is no other course that compares, and we always go out there, and will be back.

A negative I had read about past Penticton events is that they jacked up the prices for meals and had minimum stays at the hotels during race week. Is this still the case with the smaller field sizes?

From what I saw being in penticton there were about only 2 motels with vacancy signs and I have been told by a friend staying that the prices were no higher than regular summer rates with no night minimum.

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"Be your best cheerleader , not your worst critic.”

Despite the fact there was no timing mat at the out-and-back turnaround in OK Falls there was a nice couple cheering from their balcony right at the end of the cul-de-sac. I'm sure they were the eyes of the race :)

I did the marathon portion of the relay and the run course felt lonelier than previous years but I never felt alone. There was always someone within sight. And the aid stations were fantastic. The volunteers were top-notch and each aid station had everything you would want.

The only thing I had forgotten about the course is the long gentle uphill slope from Skaha to mid-town on the way back. Man, that was a tough 4-5k on tired legs. The finish on Main Street was fantastic - even my kids got to run along and "win" with me. They loved it.

Pete

Not sure on the hotel prices but I did notice the price of my usual BLT at Denny's was up to like a hundred dollars. Apparently Jonathan Caron had some sports nutrition seminar going on that week.

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

I did the half.

Prices were not Jacked up. $390 for 3 nights at the Shoreline on the beach, walk to the start / finish. Chinese Smorg for 3 adults and 2 kids, after I finished, $60.

I thought there were a LOT of people at the start of the swim in the Half. More than I figured. I was MOP in the swim, some bumping but not bad. T1 tent had all chairs taken so I sat on the ground, no big deal. The halfers merged with the full folks on the swim.

Bike, leaving T1 was a bit busy but not bad. Took a bit of time to sort out your position. Heading up MacLean creek got passed by a little old lady on an upright 3-speed with a dog in the front basket that she called "Toto". Well, if she had been there she would have passed me, everyone else did. Quick ride sow to Oliver and got passed all over the place on the hills. I REALLY need to work on that.

Into T2 and the tent and it is somewhat lonely, only a few people there, I had a chair this time. Out on the run and also pretty lonely. There were 4 Pros from the full who were already on the run but otherwise I was near the back of the halfers but in front of all the full folks. Saw lots of people headin back to the finish as I slogged onward out to the turn around. I really noticed the hill heading up from T2 as well as coming back from Skaha but that was mostly my lack of training.

Finish was great, I managed a negative split of the last Km, fastest pace of the whole run and if I hadn't stopped for a poop break on the bike I would have beaten 8 hours.

I'll be back.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

This is a very intriguing (and for me) appealing idea. I'm not from the area, but if I were I would probably hit Penticton for it's two races as they would be far enough apart for the Challenge event to be a tune-up for the IM at the end of August. IM Whistler would fill the gap for those not interested in Penticton. I think there would be numbers to support all the races. I'm just not sure WTC will ever go back to Penticton.