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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Some out of box thinking can actually work or be implemented, others not so much (showcasing athletes in build up to Kona....he named HBO and the NBC winter classic, both make millions upon millons off those telecasts and can afford the costs...not so much for Kona).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [WILLEATFORFOOD] [ In reply to ]
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WILLEATFORFOOD wrote:
This is great! This is a clear area where we disagree and we've been given a mechanism to test our theories. My hypothesis is that the ironman events that no longer have pro fields will have decreased participation, and decreased revenues for surrounding businesses.

It's an interesting hypothesis, one shared by many on this board, but as far as I can tell it's already been disproven by Challenge. They took over the Penticton course (where WTC had been neglecting the pros), had what I believe was a larger prize purse, paid to have Macca there, yet the race and the town saw huge losses. Similar situation in Atlantic City with lots of pros, lots of prize money, but few age groupers. Meanwhile there are WTC events like Wisconsin that sellout despite a significant pro race. The conclusion I draw is that there is little to no correlation between age group participation and the presence of pros. Some races are popular, some aren't, and my guess is that money spent on pros has a significantly lower ROI than when it's spent on the age groupers.

But even if in a few years participation wanes, for races without pros, how will you show causation rather than just correlation when there are currently events that added more pros but lost AG participation?

WILLEATFORFOOD wrote:
In terms of drawing the line from pros to profits, my n<=20 is that I've shown up to spectate an ironman branded race because I knew that some exceptional athletes were going to be there.

This has been said a few times before, but notice that you switched from "pro" to "exceptional." That's significant because what it says that you want to see people that are "fast" regardless of what their designation is. At a lot of these races the lead AG isn't far behind the lead pro. The people you think are pro may in fact be amateurs!

Also notice that all you did was spectate--for free! WTC doesn't make any money if you just show up and stand on the side of a road. In fact, what you just showed was the opposite of what WTC wants--they need you to race and buy merchadise. It's great that having some pros meant one dude showed up to watch, but when I raced last I encouraged three other other friends to race with me. Each of us traveled with family and spent a week at the site. Those that couldn't make the trip logged on to ironman.com to track us. And because we enjoyed the race people will know are now more likely to sign up, bring their family, and repeat the process. That is an actual connection between the AG and profit.

WILLEATFORFOOD wrote:
To put it more succinctly, if you can point to someone who isn't at least a little bit more interested in Dimond bikes after TJ Tollakson's performance last weekend,

This is a valid point, but not for the case you were trying to make. WTC doesn't make any money when someone buys a Dimond bike, Dimond does. That's why companies like Dimond sponsor athletes, and probably have bonuses worked out for them if they podium. So why not go after them and their "absurd amount of money?" Why aren't they responsible for paying athletes and developing the sport that they're milking?
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Some out of box thinking can actually work or be implemented, others not so much (showcasing athletes in build up to Kona....he named HBO and the NBC winter classic, both make millions upon millons off those telecasts and can afford the costs...not so much for Kona).

The NHL 24/7 thing is done by HBO which does not show the NHL classic. It just uses the popularity of the game for its own use. Maybe the nhl or NBC pays them to do it who knows? But his premise isn't wrong. Some type of reality show would be good outside the box thinking for triathlon. And there is a reason reality television has multiplied, it's pretty damn cheap to put on.
But maybe it would boring as shit, who knows. If I did it I'd get Callum involved. That kid is pure gold.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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But how do you make money off it? Hbo has a month of fighters training because they will make $80mil on the ppv. So how does the producer of the show cash in for triathletes? The damn race is telecast 2 months after completion.

There is no end product in triathlon like in hockey or boxing. There is zero media broadcasts at Kona except for the sketchy online blog feed.


Eta: we already have 7 min "training" reality video online from specialized. They have showcased probaly the top triathletes in the sport and it basically was for youtube.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Aug 21, 14 12:44
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Im just curious how much does everyone think WTC's annual profits are? And how much does everyone think they should be allowed to make?

Here is my thought on a way to solve the problem. Each pro gets a sponsor to put 20,000 into the race pool (per race). They need a min of 20 pros for the men and the women. Instant $200,000 min purse and it pays out 10 deep. Like nascar and hydro racing the tri kit sponsor may change each week, also they could race sprint, olympic, half and full distance.
Last edited by: caveAllen: Aug 21, 14 13:21
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I wasn't debating the boxing scenario that makes perfect sense. Now why does HBO do the NHL 24/7? Since they won't make off it with the game being on NBC.

As for triathlon, or more specifically Ironman, Messick has gone on the record saying he envisions many many more races. So they make money by putting asses into those races. They need more athletes. Reality TV is easy marketing. And given how many athletes live in Boulder, or say Bend, Gold Coast of Australia, you can camp a crew out in each spot for a couple weeks and film.

Sure right now there is no live broadcast of Kona, but you gotta think Messick would love to one day have a live show like they have in cycling. Christ we have 4-6 hour TdF on everyday so it's not like it is impossible to think you could have at least some of Kona live. And what better way to build to the race then have shows featuring the top contenders prepare for the race.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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It's an interesting hypothesis, one shared by many on this board, but as far as I can tell it's already been disproven by Challenge. They took over the Penticton course (where WTC had been neglecting the pros), had what I believe was a larger prize purse, paid to have Macca there, yet the race and the town saw huge losses.



These two scenarios are not the same at all. Challenge is trying to build a race from the ground up, and ironman is trying to hold onto a completely maxed out field. The same goes for Rev 3, they are building races from scratch. What myself and others here are saying is that the "maxed" out fields of the iron mans that had pro fields, are going to suffer in the future. First it will be when they fill(being later and later) until they do not fill and you can enter the week before. They certainly will lose most if not all race coverage( tv, magazine, internet), and any revenues that go along with those situations.

Using Challenge in Penticton after ironman had run this race into the ground for the past 5 years at least, is not an example in this case. It might take Challenge that long to get all that good will and confidence back from the community and the athletes before it is a sell out race once again. Only real problem i see is that the next poor sucker to buy this dog of a company will probably not know that this is a built in decline, and pay too much. Just like these guys did, paid so much for WTC that all these years later it is just barely worth what they paid for it in the beginning. They made a really bad deal and will now try and pass another one along to the next group that knows nothing about the sport, or this entity, other than what numbers they put on a page.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Using Challenge in Penticton after ironman had run this race into the ground.


Im not sure this is the case since there were over 3,000 people racing the last 5 years and 1000's of people that went up to sign up for 2013. They put their money back in their pocket and pulled it back out to do the new and improved Ironman Canada at whistler. I was one of those people.
Last edited by: caveAllen: Aug 21, 14 14:29
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:


>I'm not a marketing expert, but I would suggest that Go-Pro does a pretty reasonable job.

GoPro has been absolutely brilliant at marketing. They created a market, largely by just giving away GoPros to legions of celebrity athletes across pretty much all popular sports.

It's not like there weren't bike mounted digital cameras before GoPro.
I agree. Most people here seem to use GoPro as a synonym for video camera. And for those who question why they might not be used more widely in IM, well this could be a reason.
Last edited by: sharkbait_au: Aug 21, 14 15:05
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [caveAllen] [ In reply to ]
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caveAllen wrote:
Im just curious how much does everyone think WTC's annual profits are? And how much does everyone think they should be allowed to make?

Here is my thought on a way to solve the problem. Each pro gets a sponsor to put 20,000 into the race pool (per race). They need a min of 20 pros for the men and the women. Instant $200,000 min purse and it pays out 10 deep. Like nascar and hydro racing the tri kit sponsor may change each week, also they could race sprint, olympic, half and full distance.

Seriously? Their profits should be decided by the "free market".

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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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What about the inventors of Apple. They worked hard for a long time to achieve their first computer and worked possibly harder after that to build their company. Without hard work you most likely won't be in the right place at the right time to make the right strike. Sir Richard Branson Also worked like a dog to achieve ahat he has. Ross Peraux, The list goes on and on.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [Indigodog] [ In reply to ]
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For every man/woman that worked like a dog and got somewhere, there are hundreds more who worked harder but ended up nowhere, except you don't hear about them.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [Indigodog] [ In reply to ]
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And that fact is that these people now have more than many hundreds of people combined. There is absolutely no way they worked harder than the combined effort of all those other people.
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Re: "No one is entitled to make a living, you have to earn a living" - Crowie [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
we are all just pawns in the system. No different than the peasants during the Roman time. But boy is our quality of life so much better.

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So, then - exactly NOTHING LIKE the peasants during the Roman time then.


float , hammer , and jog

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