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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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"Personally, I would rather go with the smaller to two options if I was in between a 51 and a 54 (which is exactly the scenario I am in). "

You're relatively long legged and short torso in proportion. The 51 cm might a lot of make sense for you. I tower above you by a whole 3.5 inches with the same inseam, so the larger frame would be more for me, which is what I ride in my P2K.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, you are correct. You'd have to go with a super duper long stem to get the 51 to fit for sure !
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I went through all this before I settled on a size 54 P3C. I tried out the 56 and would have had to push the saddle all the way forward and go with a fairly short stem to make it work. My measurements are as follows if it is of any help. I agree with Tom -- it is a difficult bike to size.

Height (Length) 178 cm

Inseam 82.5 cm

Torso Length 62.5 cm

Shoe Size 10.5

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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [redlab] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
From Gerard: So for example the 51 and the 54cm overlap a bit in people they can fit. It's not that Tom has trouble fitting on a P3C, it's that he fits on two.



given that there is usually overlap in fittings, what is the general rule in regards to choosing one of two frame sizes that fit you well? given gerard's note on "aggressiveness" of frame sizes, one could be led to believe that generally, i repeat, generally a larger frame may be better (all else equal).


I would look at something else if it concerns a tri bike (different for road). How forward are you in your position where, if anywhere, do you plan to go with your position. Say you are riding in a medium forward position and you can choose between two sizes. If you have plans to go further forward in the future, I would buy the bike that can accomodate that (which is usually the bigger of the two). If you don't plan to do that and maybe even plan to go backwards, then the smaller frame would be a better idea.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [jmhtx] [ In reply to ]
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Power is not that much of a concern actually, as it is actually quite difficult to seriously curtail someone's power through positioning. I mean, you have to be a really lousy fitter to really hurt somebody's power output. If you combine that with potential aero gains, it becomes even more of a non-issue. Of course, this all assumes training in the final position, not setting somebody up the night before Ironman (though I have done that as well and strangely enough, with very good results).


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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"When you angle the seat 5-15 degrees right or left it takes pressure off of sensitive parts when posistioned forward on the seat. "[/reply]

"you can still do that. Most saddles will allow some "adjustment". "
------------------------------

Gerard,

How do you make this adjustment? Can I do this at home, or is this better left to the pros?

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard,

Just curious what sizes in the P3C is the CSC team riding? I understand they all ride the bike in the rearward position, but it would be interesting to compare measurments and sizes with the pros..
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
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Big Red,

Zabriskie appears to me to using the forward seat post position. See (I hope the picture comes through, but if not : http://cervelo.com/wallpaper/w008_1024.jpg )





David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [david] [ In reply to ]
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David,

Thanks for the picture! Yep, it sure looks like it. Forward it is for Zabriskie. I thought they were required to ride in the rearward position due to UCI rules and they just moved to the tip of the saddle to get more forward. Interesting..
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
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I belive that his saddle is cut off, so he truly is sitting on the point!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
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Bigred3- Do you have picutes of your bike set up? We are almost identical in size. Can you also provide your fit dimensions? Saddle height, drop to pads, set back, etc?
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
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bigred,

i am 5 feet 10 (i guess 180 centimeters) with an inseam of 32.5 inches. The fitters I met with told me to consider the 51 and the 54 p3c. I ultimately decided on the 54 and love it. It is amazing how we are the same height more or less and the range of bike we were looking at was between 51 and 56. I feel encouraged that we both ended up with the same size frmae.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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I do have pictures, I am not sure how to load them on this forum -- snapfish? pm me and I'll send you all the measurements/pics. I was professionally fit by a FIST certified fitter.

The headtube on the 54 is pretty short (10.5), so I have all the spacers in, but I was able to turn the stem around. I'm sure everyone on this forum will tell me it is set up like cruiser bike. If the top tube wasn't so long, I would have selected the 56 and the longer headtube (12.5) and probably would have been able to set it up with fewer spacers. I go any lower on the bike and it compromises my hip angle.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [david] [ In reply to ]
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David Z is about 72 inches or 183cm tall. It looks like he has the FSA integrated bars with a 90mm stem and no spacers. He is pretty far forward... especially for a UCI legal bike and has his seat clamp in the forward position. Looking the frame it looks like he is on a 54cm--(best guess, based upon size and orientation of the "P3 Carbon" decal on the seat tube.)

I recall reading that Ivan Basso who is 181 cm tall- 71 inches- rides a 54cm and also has his seat in the forward position.

Given that both of these guys ride with no spacers and for relatively short distances--(compared to IM bike length), I would guess they could have been fit on the 56cm, but are able to get lower on the 54cm.

Bjorn rides a 56cm and is as tall as Ivan, however he is lower than everyone and has his seat in the rear position.

Clearly leg length to overall height is important and I have not accounted for that in this summary as that is not readily available. Additionally, saddle to handlebar drop has an impact on the "correct" top tube length.

I am not sure if this makes all of this clearer or more confusing.

Suffer Well.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Gerard,

Just curious what sizes in the P3C is the CSC team riding? I understand they all ride the bike in the rearward position, but it would be interesting to compare measurments and sizes with the pros..


Well, although the CSC riders are good example of how people can fit more than one size, I don't think they are necessarily the template to follow for most triathlete. If Zabriskie were a triathlete, I would probably put him on a 56cm frame. But as a time trialer, he is on a 54cm. Same goes for most CSC guys, they are on one size smaller than you would think based on their size. But of course they are in a situation where they are looking for specific handling characteristics (combined with the cycling experience that they have) that is a bit different from the average triathlete. It's easyto make jokes about Zabriskie in that regard, but of course he is still head and shoulders over anybody on this forum when it comes to bike handling.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
If Zabriskie were a triathlete, I would probably put him on a 56cm frame. But as a time trialer, he is on a 54cm. Same goes for most CSC guys, they are on one size smaller than you would think based on their size. But of course they are in a situation where they are looking for specific handling characteristics (combined with the cycling experience that they have) that is a bit different from the average triathlete.
Can you please be more specific about what you mean by that?
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [Diablo-Advocato] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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If Zabriskie were a triathlete, I would probably put him on a 56cm frame. But as a time trialer, he is on a 54cm. Same goes for most CSC guys, they are on one size smaller than you would think based on their size. But of course they are in a situation where they are looking for specific handling characteristics (combined with the cycling experience that they have) that is a bit different from the average triathlete.
Can you please be more specific about what you mean by that?


Well, they ride a road bike 330 days/yr, if not more, so they are very used to the handling of that bike. What they are looking for is a bit of a mix between "as much as possible like my road bike" and "as good as possible for a TT bike". Going a little bit smaller helps with that, as the shorter frame will make it handle a bit more like the road bikes they are used to. And of course, they also have quite extreme positions so it is nice for them to have the shorter headtubes that go along with that.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
Last edited by: gerard: Aug 31, 05 3:46
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard,

You have said many things about fitting a P3C that interest me.

You say Sastre is the only CSC rider on a 51 P3C. How tall is he and what is his saddle height? Would a rider 178cm with a 73.0 cm saddle height need a 54?

You also state that it is pretty hard to curtail a persons power output via fitting. Does that mean that you tend to put riders as low as you can get them? From photos that I have seen, only Christian VanDeVelde seems to have much in the way of spacers under the stem and all of the CSC riders that I have seen photos of sit halfway forward on the saddle if not more forward than that. Would it be fair to assume that you slam the front end low, chop the front couple of centimeters off of the saddle so that you can get by the UCI regs. at 5 cm behind the bb, and then find a saddle height that works with the saddle in that position?

I am not trying to criticize, I am trying to learn. I am having a hard time achieving a fast position within UCI regs. and I am trying to decide what measures that I need to take.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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great read
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah, and cut the straight vision bars short enough so the forearm, elbow, and shoulder are close to 90 degree angles.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would look at something else if it concerns a tri bike (different for road). How forward are you in your position where, if anywhere, do you plan to go with your position. Say you are riding in a medium forward position and you can choose between two sizes. If you have plans to go further forward in the future, I would buy the bike that can accomodate that (which is usually the bigger of the two). If you don't plan to do that and maybe even plan to go backwards, then the smaller frame would be a better idea.


Where you ride relative to the BB is an often overlooked measurement when selecting frame size. As Gerard mentions above it's very important.

I ride a 56 P3C and it's a perfect fit. I am 184cm with a seat height of 77cm. Saddle is level with BB and my drop is 16.5cm. Stem is 100mm which I prefer on a TT bike. If I rode 5cm behind the BB the 56 may be long for me.

Having an aggressive drop (for IM) has not impacted on my power output. People often think it's a trade off between power, aerodynamics and comfort. In my experience this is not the case. A position is highly trainable so that power can be maintained even with very good aerodynamics. I am more comfortable at 16.5cm then I was at 8cm and my power is the same.

So decide where you ride (or will ride) relative to the BB when choosing a frame.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Gerard,

You have said many things about fitting a P3C that interest me.

You say Sastre is the only CSC rider on a 51 P3C. How tall is he and what is his saddle height? Would a rider 178cm with a 73.0 cm saddle height need a 54?

You also state that it is pretty hard to curtail a persons power output via fitting. Does that mean that you tend to put riders as low as you can get them?


Re. Sastre, there are a couple of other riders who will probably end up on a 51cm, but right now Sastre is the only one simply because only the nine Tour riders got P3Cs, the rest rides on P3 SLs. I believe Carlos is 5'7, and to be honest in general a 5'7 triathlete would likely end up on a 51cm as well, so no difference there.

Of people we fit on a 54cm frame, the average height is 5'10 (which is exactly your 178cm). The average saddle height is 72cm. This does not mean that everything 5'10 rides a 54cm, as obviously it depends on how that height is distributed (if 5' of that in in your neck, a 54cm frame will likely be too big :-) and what your position is on the bike. The average CSC rider on a 54cm is probably 2" taller, and has his saddle maybe an inch higher.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard,

I know we are getting into some pretty detailed information. Do you have the average inseam and torso lengths for the CSC riders on the 54 P3C? Thank you for all the information on this topic, it has been very informative and interesting.
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Re: That P3 Carbon thing is up. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, that is good information. It looks like Basso and Zabriske are on pretty small bikes (54?) and they are 5'11 and 6'? But they have long arms and legs. I don't know about Basso, but I know Zabriske can produce power in pretty much any position so the lower the better.

So, do you expect riders of 5'10 and 73 cm to ride a 51 if they are short torso and 54 if longer torso, or does ability to rotate hips and lower back flexibility enter into the equation?
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