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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously it will vary from person to person but are their any standard expectations one should set?

No.

It would require a thorough evaluation of where you are and how you got there. What was your FTP when you first started to ride? What sort of shape where you in when you started (including your exercise regime)? What training have you done since you started? Ever had a VO2 max test? How old are you? Even then it's pretty much a WAG.

Twice in my life when I started cycling hard I experienced ~70% gain in FTP in less than 6 months (180W-300W)... and very little improvement after that. So I think you can get close to your potential in 6 months or less if you are already decently fit. Might as well just do the work and find out.

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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
kileyay wrote:

OFFENSIVE CHART


I hate these charts... maybe they work for a large amount of you but I'm sitting around 280 ftp and there is ZERO chance I can ride 260 watts for an Olympic and be able to run what pace I want. Maybe I bike 260 and the faster bike time makes up for the lack of run but I wouldn't want to test that theory.

Apologies. The cells in blue are inputs. They can be changed. They are specific. The cells in black are outputs--they are calculated based on those inputs and cannot be changed. Most amateurs cannot ride 70.3s at 0.88 and run a strong half afterwards. Some can.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Over the 2009-2010 winter, I followed a 14wk long bike specific program the first time using a trainer and gained 14% (Critical Power method using 5' and 20' tests). It had 3 phases, Improve VO2 (raise the roof), Improve Submaximal (slow glycolsis), Improve Threshold.

After taking 2012 off and getting back into the game in 2013, this past winter I followed a 12 week program as prep for an early season HIM. I gained 12% focusing doing Sweetspot and Threshold trainer rides between 60 and 105 minutes in duration. Also tried to ride once a week outside with a local roadie group.

I think anywhere from 10-20% gains your first time through a focused program is a good estimate.

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Hwi did you determine your FTP? Some coaches refer to "critical volume". How many mikes do you ride a week?

BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
kileyay wrote:

I hate these charts... maybe they work for a large amount of you but I'm sitting around 280 ftp and there is ZERO chance I can ride 260 watts for an Olympic and be able to run what pace I want. Maybe I bike 260 and the faster bike time makes up for the lack of run but I wouldn't want to test that theory.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [cshowe80] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what my FTP is because don't test.
Nov 2013 did 2 hour ride at 178 watts with heart rate of 128 bpm
July 2014 did 3 hour ride at 216 watts with heart rate of 130 bpm
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [JustinNorCal] [ In reply to ]
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20 minute max effort immediately after 75 minute hard ride (I never stopped the whole 95 min). Yes, I know it's not how you're supposed to do it but this was harder than any FTP test (minus a straight hour TT) I've seen. And I did do the 95% of what watts I pushed for the 20 minute effort.

As for miles, I tend to find that pointless when talking about volume because I ride long mountain climbs on every ride. I do about 10 hours of cycling a week (one 5 hour ez ride, everything else hard intervals).

FWIW... I've never been good at shorter distances. My 10k open run is a tragedy. But looking at that chart, pushing 202 watts for 140.6 and running well after seems doable and is damn close to my goal watts (196w) for my A race.

Also FWIW... not sure what the 20min column is for but when I do 20min intervals in training, I go about 290watts avg.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Using Normalized power, the charts are pretty close to where I'm at for an "A" race at each distance based on my 20' FTP test.


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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Using Normalized power, the charts are pretty close to where I'm at for an "A" race at each distance based on my 20' FTP test.

Looking at it that way, it's more realistic. And the 204w for IM is only 2watts high for me.

I'm doing an Oly this weekend and the plan is to go hard on the bike and survive the run. I was thinking 240avg... so maybe close to 260 np. I'm interested to see now.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
20 minute max effort immediately after 75 minute hard ride (I never stopped the whole 95 min). Yes, I know it's not how you're supposed to do it but this was harder than any FTP test (minus a straight hour TT) I've seen. And I did do the 95% of what watts I pushed for the 20 minute effort.

Was the FTP test on a climb? Often times I find triathletes have trouble producing same numbers on flats in aero position they can on a climb.

As for miles, I tend to find that pointless when talking about volume because I ride long mountain climbs on every ride. I do about 10 hours of cycling a week (one 5 hour ez ride, everything else hard intervals).

I live in the Bay Area so I feel ya - it's straight up from my house to get to valley. How long are your longest intervals?

FWIW... I've never been good at shorter distances. My 10k open run is a tragedy. But looking at that chart, pushing 202 watts for 140.6 and running well after seems doable and is damn close to my goal watts (196w) for my A race.

Also FWIW... not sure what the 20min column is for but when I do 20min intervals in training, I go about 290watts avg.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [JustinNorCal] [ In reply to ]
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JustinNorCal wrote:



BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
20 minute max effort immediately after 75 minute hard ride (I never stopped the whole 95 min). Yes, I know it's not how you're supposed to do it but this was harder than any FTP test (minus a straight hour TT) I've seen. And I did do the 95% of what watts I pushed for the 20 minute effort.

Was the FTP test on a climb? Often times I find triathletes have trouble producing same numbers on flats in aero position they can on a climb.

Yep... but considering what happened 75 minutes prior. I didn't and don't think it matters. If I did a legit test in aero, I'm confident I'd hit the same numbers.

As for miles, I tend to find that pointless when talking about volume because I ride long mountain climbs on every ride. I do about 10 hours of cycling a week (one 5 hour ez ride, everything else hard intervals).

I live in the Bay Area so I feel ya - it's straight up from my house to get to valley. How long are your longest intervals?


40 minutes maybe? 60 once in a while. Wednesday is 20 min. Thurs is 7 min. Sun is 35-40 but I don't time it, I just ride it hard at X watts and could care less what the outcome is unless I blowup (which hasn't happened yet). The 60 once in a while is one specific climb and I usually ride around 215-220 watts.

FWIW... I've never been good at shorter distances. My 10k open run is a tragedy. But looking at that chart, pushing 202 watts for 140.6 and running well after seems doable and is damn close to my goal watts (196w) for my A race.

Also FWIW... not sure what the 20min column is for but when I do 20min intervals in training, I go about 290watts avg.

With all this said, I'm on the "time on the saddle" bandwagon. Just ride frequently and as much as possible, don't pussy foot and strength will come. My A race is rollers, so I'm all about strength, not staying aero for 5 hours. I did CZ last year and trained properly for that... and fucking hated it!
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [kitch] [ In reply to ]
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kitch wrote:
Not sure what my FTP is because don't test.
Nov 2013 did 2 hour ride at 178 watts with heart rate of 128 bpm
July 2014 did 3 hour ride at 216 watts with heart rate of 130 bpm

When know power heart rate irrelevant or misleading.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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Care to share what those programs were?
Last edited by: Ellsworth53T: Jul 25, 14 15:52
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [Evangelist] [ In reply to ]
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Explain. Heart rate is my primary metric. After all it's the one metric that links all three sports together. Tells me what's going on with my engine. I use power, during training, as a means to gauge progress. Now for racing I'll use power as primary if temp is on cool side but if temps spike I'll switch to heart rate to help regulate things
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [kitch] [ In reply to ]
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kitch wrote:
Explain. Heart rate is my primary metric. After all it's the one metric that links all three sports together. Tells me what's going on with my engine. I use power, during training, as a means to gauge progress. Now for racing I'll use power as primary if temp is on cool side but if temps spike I'll switch to heart rate to help regulate things

Heart rate not actionable intelligence. Use RPE. Heart rate variable. Affected by many thing. Heart rate not account stroke volume only tell how fast heart.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
Care to share what those programs were?
Sure, they're on the other site (BT).

First one is listed in the site's training plans section, weeks 1 & 2 are prep and usually skipped (I never do them). Meat of it starts week 3. You can see the workouts for each week on the 'Plan Workouts' button/tab. I don't know if the workouts are on TR and I only found weeks 2-4 on Golden Cheetah listing. I also have it all in a spreadsheet if you have a Kurt Kinetics trainer and don't have ANT+ pickup, were you can input speed avg for the testing and it cross-correlates the power/speed curve for the workouts. That's how I did it at first.

The second was part of a mentor group using TR or GC. Search "power mentor group" and you'll find the thread starting with those words. The workouts were provided weekly so its not laid out as a readable program per se. You'll have to scroll through the pages to find the GC files. If on TR the workouts may be on there as I believe someone was making and listing them.

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Might as well just do the work and find out.

Yup.
And always believe there are 10 more watts to be had, and try hard to get them.

repeat until fast.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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dmacandcheese wrote:
The second was part of a mentor group using TR or GC. Search "power mentor group" and you'll find the thread starting with those words. The workouts were provided weekly so its not laid out as a readable program per se. You'll have to scroll through the pages to find the GC files. If on TR the workouts may be on there as I believe someone was making and listing them.

Glad to hear they were useful. I have all the workouts if someone wants them.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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thank you
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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it would be helpful for me. ill DM you.
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Re: Realistic FTP Gains [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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If it's useful at all, here's a table that shows my progress from barely-been-on-a-road-bike up to today:

12/15/13 - 192
3/18/14 - 215
5/11/14 - 225
7/10/14 - 239
7/29/14 - 253

Progress has been steady - all 2014 tests have been on my tri bike, in the aerobars exclusively, on my trainer, with zero tapering of any kind. Learning how to get a feel for suffering-but-not-overdoing-it has been important, but I can also feel myself getting stronger. I really like going back and doing one of the workouts that was previously challenging, at my current fitness - it's all the positive reinforcement I need to keep hammering, recovering, and improving. Goal is to get to 300 by the end of the year, which looks like it's a stretch at this point, but we'll see.

Oh, if you're wondering about the gain from 5/11 to 7/29, I felt like I learned a ton about fatigue and effort management at IM CdA, as well as getting stronger in general, so I think that and the recovery in the following weeks explains much of the gain up to last night's test.

Physical details:
6'1"
165 lbs (trying to get down to 160)

Cheers,

-- Jake
Last edited by: Brytcyd: Jul 29, 14 10:55
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