I generally build PP fees into my asking price. I'm willing to pay the fees at my listed price. But generally, people still want a lower price. In cases where I'm willing to drop the price, I then also insist on either Gifting the payment, or buyer paying fees. Concession by both parties. And when I list items both on Ebay and here in the classifieds, I'm at leat 10% cheaper on ST.

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I wanna go fast!

You should have an option to cancel the transaction on the page. At about the middle of the page after it shows the total amount, fee amount & net amount there is a hot link that says "issue refund". You will avoid losing the 3% juice.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Just so that I am focusing on the right concept here, I will give an example.... A person wants to buy that 5K bike but doesnt want to pay 5K. They will go to ST classifieds and spend 3K for all the bike and that person is concerned with $90.00 overall. Is that right? This person is concerned of spending $90.00 to protect 3K of investment? or is this NOT about the money?

This is sort of the right concept. I'm not really concerned about the investment as I am about the rightness or wrongness of cheating paypal out of their due, and the sensibility of doing business with a person who would be happy to rip paypal off with a lie.

When I post something FS, I often say the price is "net-to-me", and I cover shipping. I accept PayPal and USPS MO. How they choose to get that money to me is up to them, it can be MO, PP, or PP Gift. Some folks choose to USPS/1st Class mail cash, but I've never offered that method.

I don't reduce the price to cover the USPS MO, and I'm not eating the PayPal fee.

But you don't mind being complicit in ripping paypal off?

I also have a distaste for people who state "buyer pays fees." If you can't account for the percentage paypal takes in your asking price stop trying to sell things on the internet.


Sorry, but that's just stupid. You must not do much selling.

I would suggest that paypal isn't that concerned w/ it. They still get you to their website, so they can sell their ads. They are off the hook regarding any post transaction issues. They don't have to support the buyer or seller in any way moving forward.

So, I wouldn't say it's a loss for them. I think the fee is 3%, less the credit card fee of about 2+%, they're not making much money there. I imagine a lot of their profit comes from the website advertising.

Is it against policy? Yes. Fraudulent? Maybe. Do they still make money on your time at their website? Yes. Are they off the hook post-transaction? Yes.

If I were Paypal, I wouldn't worry about it.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

I'd prefer they use the regular method (for address info & tracking updates), but I'm not going to actively reject a PP gift if one is sent. The situation is not ideal, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

Stunning logic fail ~Visa/MC/PP are providing a service by enabling to you either pay a seller/merchant remotely, or with money you don't have on hand at the moment, or both. If you have the cash on hand to pay at the point of sale, you're not cheating any 3rd party out of a transaction fee because they aren't performing any service to facilitate the transaction.

Personally as a buyer, I find it a bit annoying. If i'm looking at a crankset with a $150 asking price, but they want me to pay fees and/or shipping, well then it's really a $160 or $170 crank to me and not $150. Knowing that side of it, whenever I sell something my asking price includes eating domestic postage (overseas is negotiable) and PP fee so that the buyer knows their full out-of-pocket cost for the item up front, already rounded off and no further math to bother with ~ and I'm more likely to buy from another seller who does the same as it spares me a small bit of hassle by masking the transaction cost somewhat; although if I want it badly enough I'll offer to round up $5-10 or whatever to help offset the PP cost, because I think it's a legit service that I don't expect to get for free. But again, I don't think that's the best way for the seller to go about it if they're really motivated to move their wares. The way I see it, there's the intrinsic value of the item being sold, but also value in reducing the clutter/storage load in my garage/closet, so in essence I'm willing to toss PP and USPS a cut as a seller for their assistance to help grease those skids by making it as painless as possible to any prospective buyer.

What do you think PayPal is doing? They're charging you money for transaction risk and post-transaction protection. If you use gift, PayPal isn't incurring the risk (beyond anti-money laundering compliance.

Do you use the same logic with sales tax and shipping costs? I also find it annoying that I see an item with a $100 price tag at my bike shop, but when I get to the register I have to pay 8.9% sales tax. That doesn't make much sense.
As for paypal, as the seller I specify upfront that you can either gift money or pay the fee. I'm selling things at a pretty significant discount already. If I want to discount it further I'll sell it on eBay. I've bought and sold on ST for years without a problem.

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Check out my blog
http://www.ironscottallen.blogspot.com

Well isnt buying something online cheating your LBS out of their due?? Or is that ok because your getting something cheaper and it helps you the consumer out!

Be careful with that assumption. I, and several other ST members, were swindled by a long time forum member whose public identity was well known. For me it was only $600 or so that was stolen, but if I remember correctly others lost more. I think this is an exception to an otherwise pretty reliable marketplace, but since then I've done all my shopping at the LBS or at the very least in person.

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-Andrew

Also see Western Union, bank transfers, and the united states postal service. All ways to send payment remotely for goods or services, just like PayPal gift. Regular PayPal has fees, and it also has buyer protection, so it functions more like setting up your own credit card point of sale infrastructure with regard to customer protection, customer convenience, and fees.

PayPal gift is essentially the same as mailing a money order through USPS.

Stunning logic fail for one of us maybe - but don't mind me, I'm just a bored, insensitive, shit-stirring ass :)

I think I remember the guy and item you are talking about. Something to do with a campy crank, right?

For me, personally, I will use PayPal gift if I would feel comfortable with putting a money order or cashier's check in an envelope and mailing out to the seller. If I don't trust the seller to quite that level, whether through lack of personal interaction or forum history or references or whatever, I will use PayPal and pay the extra 3% for my own buyer protection. On the other hand, when I sell an item, I either quote prices explicitly as "net to me"- shipping and any transaction fees extra - or I add in the 3% overhead and estimated shipping costs and quote a final price.

If you spend enough time in any online marketplace, you will encounter bad sellers and bad buyers. I have seen outright scammers as well as shady people who misrepresent their products or expectations, but over nine years and hundreds of transactions ranging from $5 to $3000, the vast majority have been outstanding individuals who I'd trust more than most businesses. Use of PayPal gift has had no relevance to the moral quality of any seller or buyer I have ever personally encountered.

commendatore wrote:

But the LBS doesn't also charge you an additional 2% to cover the credit card transaction fees.

Until 2013, it was not permitted by the big CC companies, and is controlled by laws in some states:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/get-help/checkout-fees.jsp

Sure they do, they just raise the price of everything a little bit. Ask yourself: have things that have gotten progressively easier to manufacture, transport, package, and sell, gotten any cheaper? Tubes for instance used to be $4 or $5. Now they're $8 or $10. If the LBS incurs more expenses, they'll just raise their prices in response. Prior to 2013 they couldn't explicitly pass the expense on to the customer, but raising all your prices to cover the cost of doing business is perfectly legal. Margin is margin.

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I tweet!

So if you claim there is no moral significance to lying, then perhaps you make sense. However, lying is generally wrong. When you lie to avoid paying a fee, you're stealing. If you don't want to pay paypal fees, use one of the services you list below. Sending money via USPS does not involve lying.